Old 30-06 cartridges

[Merc]

I have 3 boxes of 30-06 cartridges that were made in 1953 according to the "53" stamped on the head that I'm not sure what to do with. The initials "RA" are also stamped on the head. Are they are military loads from the Korean War era? Does anyone have an opinion on whether they are safe to shoot in a M1917? Were the primers and powders used 63 years ago corrosive?

[gwp]

There are tables listing dates of non-corrosive ammo. Here is one: http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellt.htm#corrosive

[jaie5070]

If your rifle is in good condition and the ammo looks to be also than you should have no problem shooting it.

[Merc]

Thanks for the table and advice. The bore has strong rifling, the bolt looks good and passes headspace. Ammo looks like it's safe to shoot but only by one year according to the table. I assumed RA was military ammo. Could also be civilian? Wealth of knowledge on this forum continues to amaze.

[kcw]

Thanks for the table and advice. The bore has strong rifling and the bolt looks good. Looks like safe ammo to shoot but only by one year according to the table. I assumed RA was military ammo. Could be civilian made by Remington Arms. Wealth of knowledge on this forum continues to amaze.

Even if it were older, corrosive primer ammo, it would still be "safe" to shoot. Nothing unsafe about corrosive ammo, other than the need to appropriately clean the gun. The brass from corrosive primer ammo is well salvageable for reloading, just throw the freshly de-capped brass into a bucket of water to flush out any remaining salts. I still a large quantity of once fired WWII GI brass, including a 5 gallon bucket of the RA-44 marked stuff, with the heavy circular primer crimp, which was sold to the Brits for use in the Browning 30 cal wing guns of the U.S. built fighters they were flying.

[Hecklerusp45]

Thanks for the table and advice. The bore has strong rifling and the bolt looks good. Looks like safe ammo to shoot but only by one year according to the table. I assumed RA was military ammo. Could be civilian made by Remington Arms. Wealth of knowledge on this forum continues to amaze.

The RA does mean Remington Arms. They filled contracts for Uncle Sam.

[RC20]

What you want to do if you really want to shoot that stuff is get Hoppes 9 and clean it afterward .

If its corrosive then the Hoppes 9 is designed to deal with that.

Other way is ammonia and water and clean the rifle.

Frankly I would not shoot it, not worth the worry and that old you can get erratic ignition depending on how it was stored.

The Greek Surplus shoots ok, its hot and they are steel so I am not keen on using those much either.

[dave]

Unless Hoppes 9 has been changed from 40-50 year ago it will not be good for corrosive ammo. Good 'ol hot soapy water is good. Ammonia & water is ok but the ammonia is really for copper fouling and don't let it set in barrel more then couple hours, as it will eat at steel if strong enough. The old WW11 GI bore cleaner is the best and it also contains ammonia. I still use it and have never had a bore go bad, shot a lot of corrosive ammo, some going back to the 20's, in the 1950-60's.

[RC20]

Hopes 9 in its original (not the synthetic) was intended for corrosive ammo as well as black powder (also corrosive)

Disagreement now that it does, I will seed that one. The black powder formula should work though.

some thing soapy water is the complete answer, I disagree, you need to get other residue out of the gun and soapy water or ammonia will not do that.

Frank I would clean the bore with solvent of some kind, then wash out if you get rust (i.e. remove any remain salt)

The ammonia in the water is to assist the water in its cleaning though soapy water works as well, supposedly ammonia helps dissolve the salts better.

[PhillipM]

Hopes 9 in its original (not the synthetic) was intended for corrosive ammo as well as black powder (also corrosive)

Disagreement now that it does, I will seed that one. The black powder formula should work though.

some thing soapy water is the complete answer, I disagree, you need to get other residue out of the gun and soapy water or ammonia will not do that.

Frank I would clean the bore with solvent of some kind, then wash out if you get rust (i.e. remove any remain salt)

The ammonia in the water is to assist the water in its cleaning though soapy water works as well, supposedly ammonia helps dissolve the salts better.

Ammonia is an order of magnatude below plain water in dissolving salts. It's really quite simple, flush the bore with water, preferably boiling due to the drying effect, and then clean normally with your favorite bore cleaner. Wash the bolt head with water also. My Mauser loves it.

[Merc]

OK, so the main idea is to remove the corrosive salts from the barrel bore. Flushing with hot soapy water and ammonia added plus using a solvent are the preferred methods. I can picture soaking the first 6 to 12 inches (that area includes the wire brush) of my pull through bore snake in Hoppes No. 9 and pulling it through the bore because that's pretty much how I clean it now. Curious to know how to flush water down through the bore without accidentally soaking the stock. Disassembling the barrel/action from the stock would be one method but that seems a little labor intensive. Dealing with water that gets into the trigger, etc. also raises concerns.

The RA 52 ammo isn't corrosive so I won't be dealing with corrosive salts, however I noticed that the .30-06 Springfield PPU SPBT 165 gr. ammo that I just bought is considerably shorter at 3.250" than the old RA .30-06 FMJ ammo is at 3.325". Makes me wonder if it's something other than rifle ammo. The cases are identical but there's a big difference in bullet size.

I recently saw a video of a gunsmith warning his viewers away from using aluminum rods to clean bores saying they cause accidental muzzle wear. His preferred cleaning tool was a pull through bore snake which is what I like to use most of the time because it gets me through the process much quicker although patches seem to do a more thorough job. Has anyone had a worn muzzle caused by aluminum rods?

[hyrax222]

Why folks shoot questionable ammo in good firearms I'll never understand. The risk out weighs the small savings in ammo costs.

Any old ammo I have is either collectable (not for shootng) or I toss it into my burn pile.

[kcw]

OK, so the main idea is to remove the corrosive salts from the barrel bore. Flushing with hot soapy water and ammonia added plus using a solvent are the preferred methods. I can picture soaking the first 6 to 12 inches (that area includes the wire brush) of my pull through bore snake in Hoppes No. 9 and pulling it through the bore because that's pretty much how I clean it now. Curious to know how to flush water down through the bore without accidentally soaking the stock. Disassembling the barrel/action from the stock would be one method but that seems a little labor intensive. Dealing with water that gets into the trigger, etc. also raises concerns.

The RA 52 ammo isn't corrosive so I won't be dealing with corrosive salts, however I noticed that the .30-06 Springfield PPU SPBT 165 gr. ammo that I just bought is considerably shorter at 3.250" than the old RA .30-06 FMJ ammo is at 3.325". Makes me wonder if it's something other than rifle ammo. The cases are identical but there's a big difference in bullet size.

I recently saw a video of a gunsmith warning his viewers away from using aluminum rods to clean bores saying they cause accidental muzzle wear. His preferred cleaning tool was a pull through bore snake which is what I like to use because it gets me through the process much quicker and I don't have to deal with patches. Has anyone had a worn muzzle caused by aluminum rods?

My understanding is that aluminum rods tend to hold crud on them which acts as an abrasive. Of course I have steel rods, and brass ones too, that get dirty. My practice has always been to run a solvent soaked patch down any rod that I'm intending to place into immediate service for the specific purpose of cleaning it off. Its been said that more bores have been ruined at the muzzle by overzealous cleaning than anything else. The U.S. government actually had to counter bore some M-1 carbines because of over zealous cleaning.....with steel rods.
On the subject of flushing a bore with water. As I do my gun related work in the basement, I have EZ access to the laundry sink there. I have about 6' of small diameter hose attached to the faucet. With the action opened, bolt retracted and barrel pointed down into a suitable receptacle; the hose is placed into the chamber and water turned on in an appropriate amount. You can use any cheap dishwashing detergent to initially muck up the bore. I like to run a bronze brush through the soaped up bore a few times too just to dig any crud out of the groves. I then flush the bore with hot water, dry and then proceed with the commercial cleaner of choice.. In more recent years I follow this practice only when using cordite propelled 303. Cordite is nearly as bad as black powder to remove. Any other corrosive ammo (ie. 8mm, 06', ) I simply use the USGI WWII bore cleaner, of which I have a VERY ample supply, and skip the water bath.

[Merc]

KCW,

Hope you don't mind me picking your brain:

The small hose technique sounds interesting. How do you attach a hose small enough to fit inside the bore to your water faucet? Using hot water would help with evaporation but do you also pull a snake or a patch soaked with oil or WD40 through the bore to displace any leftover water? I won't be firing any corrosive ammo ever but it might be a good idea to do a thorough scrub occasionally.

Thanks,
Merc

[kcw]

KCW,

Hope you don't mind me picking your brain:

The small hose technique sounds interesting. How do you attach a hose small enough to fit inside the bore to your water faucet? Using hot water would help with evaporation but do you also pull a snake or a patch soaked with oil or WD40 through the bore to displace any leftover water? I won't be firing any corrosive ammo ever but it might be a good idea to do a thorough scrub occasionally.

Thanks,
Merc

The length of hose I've been using for 30+ years has an O.D. of .5". Although it has the standard connector used to hitch up to your outside faucet, or basement laundry tub faucet, the connection on the other end that normally might be used to connect to a spray nozzle etc. has been cut off. Frankly, I don't recall where that hose even came from but it's proved useful for washing dogs in the laundry tub, and occasionally flushing out gun barrels. Anyway, the cut off end of the hose is lightly pressed and held into the mouth of the CHAMBER, which acts as a sort of funnel into the barrel. As in my previous post, the barrel is ALWAYS pointed downward into an appropriate receptacle on the basement floor. The end of the hose is lightly pressed into the chamber and then the hot faucet valve is cracked open to allow an suitable amount water into the chamber, avoiding over flooding the chamber and soaking the rifle's internals. The Brits actually had a purpose made funnel for their Lee Enfield action 303 rifles that accomplished the same thing. They are occasionally offered as surplus in SGN. An alternative to using a hose is to simply stick an inch of the muzzle of a downward pointed rifle into a receptacle of hot water placed on the floor. Insert a tightly fitted and dish soap soaked cleaning patch attached to the end of a cleaning rod through chamber and down into the hot water. Draw the rod upward, thus pulling the hot water upward, behind the patch. Upon withdrawing into the chamber, the patch will lose its suction on the water, and the water will drain back to the receptacle. Repeat has required.
A secondary benefit of using HOT, boiling water has been to heat the barrel to the point that any remaining water will evaporate, but I've never waited for nature to take its in that fashion as I've just run a couple of flannel patches (made of old, flannel bed sheets) to sop up any leftover water. I then proceed to clean the barrel as I would if I were going to start cleaning Remington Model 700 hunting rifle fresh from the field..
I should tell you that I was teethed on cleaning guns that had corrosive GI ammo run through them. During the early-mid 60's my father had a 100yd range out behind the barn, where he and his buddies would shoot their WWII "bring backs", more recently procured NRA-DCM 03 Springfields & M1917's and whatever oil soaked, GI surplus gun that they'd bought for $20 off the rack at the local "Outdoor Store". EVERYTHING they shot out of those things was corrosive surplus ammo. My job, after the shooting had ended and the men were sipping their adult "pops" on the side porch, was to be in the basement, scrubbing the bores of those rifles out with soap and hot water using the "pan on the floor" technique. I also swabbed out the chamber area and bolt face for corrosive residue. The adults then took care of whatever final cleaning they preferred themselves. Of course those guys were all WWI, WWII or Korean war vets who dealt with corrosive ammo during their service years. And too, many were old enough to recall the days when ALL ammo was corrosive, and ALL guns had to be treated accordingly. That experience is why I don't hesitate to use old, but still serviceable, corrosive ammo; while many less experienced people today think that use of it will instantly ruin a barrel.

[Merc]

Here's one for you old army vets. I looked again at what is written on the standard army metal ammo box that my old .30-06 53 RA ammo came in that might indicate what kind of cartridges they are. Remember from my previous post that they are 3.350" long compared to my other rifle cartridges that are 3.250" long. The box has the following stamped into the side: "Cal. .30 M1 Ammunition Box." The following is stenciled right below in yellow lettering: "250 Cal 30 Linked 4AP 1TR Repkd Lot Sen-L-100206." The word "Linked" caught my attention. First question that pops - is 3.350" the correct size for M1 ammo? Second question(s): could "linked" indicate that these are machine gun cartridges and are they typically longer than a standard .30-06 rifle cartridge?

[kcw]

Here's one for you old army vets. I looked again at what is written on the standard army metal ammo box that my old .30-06 53 RA ammo came in that might indicate what kind of cartridges they are. Remember from my previous post that they are 3.350" long compared to my other rifle cartridges that are 3.250" long. The box has the following stamped into the side: "Cal. .30 M1 Ammunition Box." The following is stenciled right below in yellow lettering: "250 Cal 30 Linked 4AP 1TR Repkd Lot Sen-L-100206." The word "Linked" caught my attention. First question that pops - is 3.350" the correct size for M1 ammo? Second question(s): could "linked" indicate that these are machine gun cartridges and are they typically longer than a standard .30-06 rifle cartridge?

As the round commonly known as the 30.06 was originally designed and modified by the U.S. military, I would assume that commercial SAAMI specs for such things as OAL closely co-inside with GI specs. SAAMI specs call for a max OAL of 3.340". I just measured up 5 examples USGI 06' dated from 07' to 54' and they ranged from 3.30" to 3.39" which falls within SAMMI spec. That being said, concessions to standards are often made under war time pressures, or in times when supplies are otherwise in great demand. While your RA-53 ammo might be .010 over SAAMI max OAL spec it was no doubt function tested in all respects and proclaimed "good to go". Understand of course that the military usually didn't give two hoots about commercial specs, it just wants things built to its own specs, which may or may not align with commercial values. "Linked" indicated that the ammo inside was set up for use in a 30 cal machine gun. That being side, AP. tracer and common ball ammo were interchangeable for use in bolt actions , M-1 Garand, BAR & the 30 cal machine gun.

[Merc]

Good info. Thanks.

I've been thinking about how I could prevent muzzle wear by finding a simple and cheap way of keeping the aluminum cleaning rods centered in the rifle bore and preventing the rods from making contact with and damaging the internal muzzle wall area.

Being from an electrical background, I tend to think in terms of the hardware commonly used by electricians when improvising just about everything. There's a small plastic electrical insulating device that's shaped like a miniature funnel that's called an "anti short bushing." The bushings are used when terminating or splicing BX armored cable and they are designed to prevent the sharp edges of the armour from cutting through the insulation of the wire. The bushings are available at Home Depot, Lowes, etc.

I bought a package of anti short bushings while I was at HD today and tried one in my M1917 and it worked as I thought it would. The bushings are split so they're easy to install on the aluminum rod and fit snugly into a .30 caliber barrel tip. The plastic material is soft and won't harm the barrel tip and keeps the rod from touching the muzzle wall as long as the bushing is held firmly inside the barrel tip.

The part of the bushing that fits down inside the muzzle is a slightly tapered cone so it naturally holds the rod in the center of the muzzle. Press and hold the bushing in place inside the barrel tip with one hand while working the cleaning rod back and forth inside the bore with the other hand.

Here are the bushing details:

Name on package - No. O MM Bushings (aka Anti-Short Bushings)
Size - 5/16"
Qty. in bag - 35
Cost - $2.15 plus tax at Home Depot

The detergent method of cleaning a bore does a nice job. Good example: I could never quite get the bore of my 1944 Enfield No. 4 Mk 1 to come completely clean. No matter how much Hoppes #9 I ran through it, I always got a few powder/copper residue streaks on a dry patch.

I sprayed some cleaner/degreaser (Mean Green, 409, etc.) on a fresh patch until it was saturated and worked the bore a few times and repeated the process again with a different patch since the first one picked up lots of grime and came out really darkened. I followed up with a clean dry patch to remove any leftover detergent and the patch came out completely clean.

I followed that up with a fresh patch soaked with WD40 to displace any remaining detergent or moisture and ran another dry patch through to totally dry the bore followed by a final patch with a few drops of light gun oil added. The bore now shines like a mirror.

The #9 did what it was supposed to do which was to loosen up the powder and dissolve the copper residue from the grooves inside the bore and the cleaner/degreaser cleaned it all out by allowing all that foreign material to be lifted from the bore and absorbed by the patch. No flowing hot water was needed since I didn't have any corrosive salts to remove.

Note: Some say that the oil film should be removed from the bore prior to shooting because it affects accuracy, so I will run a bore snake with the front end dipped in #9 through the bore before heading out to the range. I'm not really convinced that oil removal is necessary since the first shot will probably vaporize the oil, but I'll do it anyway.

Merc

[Johnny P]

You can mix a multitude of things in the water, but it is the water that dissolves the potassium chlorate formed by firing corrosive primer ammunition. Hot water makes the bore dry faster.

[PhillipM]

You can mix a multitude of things in the water, but it is the water that dissolves the potassium chlorate formed by firing corrosive primer ammunition. Hot water makes the bore dry faster.

+1 ammonia and soap aren't needed. Boiling hot water also expands the micro cracks so the salt can be flushed away.

You are over thinking the application. All I use is a common household funnel and a teapot. I boil it on the stove and flush it in the kitchen sink.

For your 1917, remove the bolt and push patches from the chamber with a bore guide to the muzzle and let them drop off. That's how competition shooters do it with expensive target barrels. Tape on a 20 oz plastic beverage bottle if you want to be neat. Remove, cap and trash when done.

The muzzle bore guide is used when you have an M1 or similar where a rod can't be inserted from the chamber end.

What you need.

http://ads.midwayusa.com/product/613121/mtm-bore-guide-25-to-378-caliber?cm_mmc=pf_ci_google-_-Shooting%20-%20Gun%20Cleaning-_-MTM-_-613121&gclid=CjwKEAiA9c-2BRC_vaaJ0Ybps30SJABlqxDeY10BgIafdgi2aGLJdsRT27g0q FUADITrzKkrYV_H2hoCPLjw_wcB


Since going with the OTIS System, basically a plastic coated cable with appropriate ends, I've dispensed with. bore guides.

Bore snakes scare me.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22stuck+bore+snake%22&oq=%22stuck+bore+snake%22&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.31479j0j4&client=ms-android-att-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

[Merc]

Interesting. I can see why. Bore snakes are useful and I use mine often for a quick clean while at the range. They come in specific sizes. I suspect the guy in the video may have been using an incorrect size. My .30-06 snake doesn't even begin to fit inside the bore of my 7mm Spanish Mauser. I can easily see how it would become stuck if I tried to force it through the bore. It's never a good idea to force anything.

[Johnny P]

Wouldn't pulling a bore snake through a bore fired with corrosive primer ammunition pick up the potassium chlorate and deposit it when used later.

[Merc]

Totally agree. Bore snakes shouldn't be used in a corrosive situation for that reason, but they are washable if placed in a coarse bag. Flushing is probably the most effective method of dealing with corrosive material. I personally don't think it's worth all the trouble and aggravation to shoot corrosive ammo.

[Merc]

I reloaded a few recently fired .30/06 PPU cases from my M 1917 and just out of curiosity, I pulled one of the bullets out of the old RA 1953 M1 military cartridges that we discussed here a few weeks ago just to measure the bullet weight and to see what type of powder they used.

The bullet is a flat based 150 grain FMJ. Like new.

The powder is of the stick variety but, of course the mfr and type are unknown. Looked ok.

The weight was 48 grains.

The COAL is 3.330 inches. This was a little longer than PPU case that I reloaded with boat tail FMJ bullets set at 3.250 inches.

I am leaning towards pulling all the old bullets, punching out all the old primers and replacing the 63 year old powder and primers while salvaging the cases and bullets. It's a shame not to make use of the cases and bullets but I don't trust the 63 year old old powder and primers since I don't know how they've been stored over the years. So, what say you?

Merc

[kcw]

Unless the powder has an acrid smell it should be just fine. Bas powder may also be sort of "dusty". Good powder typically has an acetone/alcohol smell to it, but an acrid smell means it's gone bad. Bad powder isn't usually dangerous, it usually just smokes a lot and gives poor performance from round to round. If the primers aren't DUD or "click bang" they should be good to go. I'm still shooting late 1930's dated Turk 8x57 ammo that I bought when that stuff was flooding the surplus market about 15 years ago (you could buy a 1,000 rounds, on strippers, in the bandoleers for $65 shipped, from CAI). EVERY round goes off and is amazingly accurate. If the powder and primers appear to be good I'd just shoot it and save the brass. Remember to ream out the primer pocket crimp in the first reloading. I believe that era M2 ball used IMR 4895 powder.
About a month ago I was given a full rol of l linked 1943 LC 06' machine gun ammo. For decades the stuff was draped over the ceiling joists up in the second floor a garage. I tried several rounds and they were DUD's. upon pulling the AP bullets (it was loaded 4AP & 1 tracer) I found the stick powder to have deteriorated and the primers had died. I'm certain the reason was that the stuff was bad was because it was hanging for 50 years in the top of an unvented garage where it got incredibly hot in the summer. Likewise the tracer component of the tracer rounds is dead too. On the other hand the bullets and brass are just fine for reloading, I'll just have to remember that the primer mix is corrosive, and therefore wash out my decapper accordingly.

[Tuna]

There is no way to tell which powder you have but with a weight of 48 grs. with a 150 gr. flat based bullet the odds are it's IMR 4895 which was the standard powder used through out WW2 and Korea. There is no reason to pull the bullets and dump the powder. It's fines just the way it is. The primers are not corrosive and the powder is standard in USGI M2 ball ammo. The 1917 is the strongest action the US military ever used in a rifle and your ammo was made for it so just take it out and shoot the Remington made ammo and enjoy it.

[tmark]

I have fired ammo in my Garand dated 1942 without problems. I shaked the cartridge and heard powder sloshing in the case so I knew it wasn't solid or clotting.

[Merc]

Thanks guys. The powder looks and smells fine. I bought the cartridges a few years ago at an estate sale. They were stored loosely in a regulation US Army ammo box from WW2. The lid gasket is still there but isn't in the greatest shape. There's no evidence of any moisture damage to cartridges or box so I can assume the ammo was stored in a dry environment and should still be useable. The brass was clean and had only the darkened patina of age. Kinda a shame to shoot these relics, but what else would you do with them?

I'm curious about the 3.330" COAL of the 1953 RA ammo.

Sierra's reloading manual specifies that a COAL of 3.250" should apply to a .30-06 case reloaded with 150 grain FMJ BT bullets. This is also the COAL of the factory loaded PPU cartridges I bought that are also loaded with 150 grain FMJ BT bullets. The only differences in the 1953 RA ammo vs the modern commercial ammo are the powder used and the bullets are FMJ flat based instead of FMJ boat tails.

Was the longer length a military spec for M1 ammo? Should there be any concern of shooting a slightly longer cartridge in a M1917? The length of the 1953 RA ammo can easily be adjusted from 3.330" to 3.250" but is it desirable or necessary to shorten them?

Merc

[kcw]

They're just fine @ 3.30" OAL. I just took a quick measure on a few mixed USGI M2 & AP (circa 1943-1967) rounds and they come in anywhere between 3.310 & 3.340. The commercial 150gr FMJBT bullet and the 150gr USGI spec FMJFB M2 bullet are two different animals. For starters, the two designs no doubt have different ogives. Ogive shape needs to be considered relative to the distance between of the leading surface of the bullet, and the bullet's contacting the lands. Most of the time you want at least a minimum "jump" between the ogive of a jacketed bullet and the lands. Commercial loaders tend to load on the conservative side of things in deference to safety issues.

[Merc]

They're just fine @ 3.30" OAL. I just took a quick measure on a few mixed USGI M2 & AP (circa 1943-1967) rounds and they come in anywhere between 3.310 & 3.340. The commercial 150gr FMJBT bullet and the 150gr USGI spec FMJFB M2 bullet are two different animals. For starters, the two designs no doubt have different ogives. Ogive shape needs to be considered relative to the distance between of the leading surface of the bullet, and the bullet's contacting the lands. Most of the time you want at least a minimum "jump" between the ogive of a jacketed bullet and the lands. Commercial loaders tend to load on the conservative side of things in deference to safety issues.

kwc,

Thank you.

Merc

[Richard H Brown Jr]

'53 .30-06 M2 ball? Do you really want to shoot 63 yr old cartridges that *MAY* be worth more to collectors, than the cost to replace the box of what you have?

RHB

[PhillipM]

They're just fine @ 3.30" OAL. I just took a quick measure on a few mixed USGI M2 & AP (circa 1943-1967) rounds and they come in anywhere between 3.310 & 3.340. The commercial 150gr FMJBT bullet and the 150gr USGI spec FMJFB M2 bullet are two different animals. For starters, the two designs no doubt have different ogives. Ogive shape needs to be considered relative to the distance between of the leading surface of the bullet, and the bullet's contacting the lands. Most of the time you want at least a minimum "jump" between the ogive of a jacketed bullet and the lands. Commercial loaders tend to load on the conservative side of things in deference to safety issues.

I was taught by Jim Owens www.jarheadtop.com, to ignore OAL and buy the Hornady, formerly Stoney Point, comparitor which measures from the ogive to the case head. He had us make up seven rounds each from just touching the lands to .045" off the lands and then we fired them slung up prone in normal high power style, except for a tall bag under the support hand. He explained two accuracy nodes would be found, and he was right.

Modern boat tail hollow points have a little variation in OAL due to the manufacturing process as I found out measuring just the bullets out of the box. I've never done meplat trimming where the nose of the bullet is trimmed to make everything uniform and not sure it does any good.

KCW, I know you are vastly more experienced than I about cartridges, I just wanted to write it down for the newer folks.

[Merc]

'53 .30-06 M2 ball? Do you really want to shoot 63 yr old cartridges that *MAY* be worth more to collectors, than the cost to replace the box of what you have?

RHB

I hear you. I'm a bullet collector too and considered that as well. It took me several years of searching at the annual Ohio Civil War Show in Mansfield to assemble a 20 round cartridge box of 1880s 45/70 cartridges to display with my Trapdoor. I have a nice collection of Civil War musket and minie' balls that I personally dug in West Virginia. It would surprise me to learn that post Korean War military ammo has collector value. I'll poke around and see if there's a market.

Merc

[fguffey]

http://www.odcmp.org/1101/USGI.pdf

scroll down to Remington Arms; the first safe date is listed as 1952 meaning 1953 did not have corrosive primers.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

As the round commonly known as the 30.06 was originally designed and modified by the U.S. military, I would assume that commercial SAAMI specs for such things as OAL closely co-inside with GI specs. SAAMI specs call for a max OAL of 3.340". I just measured up 5 examples USGI 06' dated from 07' to 54' and they ranged from 3.30" to 3.39" which falls within SAMMI spec. That being said, concessions to standards are often made under war time pressures, or in times when supplies are otherwise in great demand. While your RA-53 ammo might be .010 over SAAMI max OAL spec it was no doubt function tested in all respects and proclaimed "good to go". Understand of course that the military usually didn't give two hoots about commercial specs, it just wants things built to its own specs, which may or may not align with commercial values. "Linked" indicated that the ammo inside was set up for use in a 30 cal machine gun. That being side, AP. tracer and common ball ammo were interchangeable for use in bolt actions , M-1 Garand, BAR & the 30 cal machine gun.


It is assumed but not true; the ammo for all 30/06 ammo came from the same box but the chambers were not the same. The M1 Garand chamber was larger in diameter at the rear by about .00025”; that made three different chambers for the 30/06.

When measuring 3006 ammo always check the case heads.

F. Guffey

[Merc]

I tried the throat measurement method on my M1917 Winchester that compares the length of an unfired cartridge to the length of a loose bullet that is pressed back into its case with the rifle's bolt. In both instances, I used the 1953 RA M1 cartridges. The OAL of the unfired cartridge measured 3.330" and the OAL of the loose bullet that was pressed back into its case with the rifle's bolt measured 3.379". That's a difference, or a distance of .049". What would be considered a normal distance? The M1 cartridge seems to fit in the M1917's receiver like it was made for it.

The one thing that's really noticeable between the 1953 RA M1 bullets and the .30-06 commercial bullets is the ogive. The modern commercial .30-06 bullet is wider closer to the point while the M1 is narrower closer to the point. Did the ogive of the M1 bullet of WW2 and Korea resemble the ogive of the .30-06 bullet of WW1?

Merc

[Tuna]

Simple answer is yes the WW1 is the same as WW2 and Korea. 150 gr. flat base FMJ. Just cupronickel instead of copper and zinc jacket. That is why they fit in your 1917 like they were made for it. Oh that's right they were made for it and the 03, BAR, 1919 and M1. You are over worried about nothing really. Just shoot the RA 53 or sell them if you can to a collector and buy new ammo and shoot that. Your 1917 will shoot any commercial 30-06 ammo made as well as any surplus 30-06. Take your rifle out and enjoy it.

[Merc]

The best part about owning this and other old military rifles is shooting them. A close second is learning everything there is to know about them.

[RC20]

I think a bore guide for a 1917 is going too far.

Not sure I buy it for any gun, but a 1917? Maybe the only plus is keeping dripping off the gun.

I have read dozens of methods of cleaning rifles, no two are the same. Common sense seems to indicate that a coated rod that is on bearings is the way to go. After that what is worse than a bullet craning alone at 2400 fps with erosive powder pushing it and heat and flames in the almost melt settle range?

They seemed to shoot just fine in the old days without a bore guide!

[Johnny P]

As the others have mentioned, it is the water that dissolves the potassium chloride formed when the primers containing potassium chlorate are fired. Potassium chloride is virtually the same thing as common table salt, and attracts moisture when the humidity gets above the 50/60% level. Some shooters swear by Windex, and it is in a handy pump bottle, but it it 96% water and that is what dissolves the salts.

[kcw]

I think a bore guide for a 1917 is going too far.

Not sure I buy it for any gun, but a 1917? Maybe the only plus is keeping dripping off the gun.

I have read dozens of methods of cleaning rifles, no two are the same. Common sense seems to indicate that a coated rod that is on bearings is the way to go. After that what is worse than a bullet craning alone at 2400 fps with erosive powder pushing it and heat and flames in the almost melt settle range?

They seemed to shoot just fine in the old days without a bore guide!

The first center fire rifle I obtained was a Winchester P-14. I FRETTED about shooting the barrel out from regular use, and also the effect of corrosive ammo. A far more experienced hand instructed me in how to clean cordite residue out (next worst thing to black powder) and told me not to worry about shooting the bore out from over use. He was right, I've gone through a few thousand rounds of 303 surplus over the past 40 years. Cleaned it accordingly, and I can't see any significant wear in the bore. Still groups as well as it ever did.

[Merc]

I attended the famous Ohio Civil War Show in Mansfield, OH on Saturday. Anyone on this forum who lives within a day's drive of Mansfield should try to spend a day there. It's well worth the effort.

I spoke to the seller who handles thousands of collectible bullets and asked him if he was interested in buying 1953 RA 30-06 bullets and he declined saying that there's no market for them.

I was able to purchase a Winchester bayonet and scabbard and an old sling. Not much else to shop for, at least as far as the M1917 rifle is concerned.

Merc

[Merc]

The first center fire rifle I obtained was a Winchester P-14. I FRETTED about shooting the barrel out from regular use, and also the effect of corrosive ammo. A far more experienced hand instructed me in how to clean cordite residue out (next worst thing to black powder) and told me not to worry about shooting the bore out from over use. He was right, I've gone through a few thousand rounds of 303 surplus over the past 40 years. Cleaned it accordingly, and I can't see any significant wear in the bore. Still groups as well as it ever did.

I'm glad that your P14 isn't showing any signs of wear. Their actions were among the strongest ever built and you have a thorough understanding of the cleaning required to prevent corrosion. I occasionally hear about worn M1917 barrels that cause problems such as keyholing, flyers, etc. but it's hard to say what caused all the wear since we'll never know the history of the rifle and the abuse it may have been exposed to in its early years.

I plan to have fun shooting all of my military rifles for hopefully many years to come. I always inspect the bore after each cleaning although it isn't a bad idea to occasionally check headspace and throat erosion. Barrels have a predictable life span depending on how many rounds have been fired through them. It would be interesting to know if there was something a gun owner could do to extend the life of a barrel.

Merc

[IditarodJoe]

It would be interesting to know if there was something a gun owner could do to extend the life of a barrel.
Just spitballing here, but here are a few things that seem fairly obvious to me:

1. Limit the round count through your "historic" barrels. Restrict your high-volume shooting shooting to rifles with modern barrels that can easily be replaced.
2. Clean the bores of old barrels carefully, avoiding harsh solvents and cleaning methods. Thoroughly remove any corrosive by-products.
3. When storing old rifles for long periods, coat the bores thoroughly with a good, rust-inhibiting grease. Store in a proper environment.
4. Shoot only non-jacketed, lead bullets through the bores you wish to protect and, when possible, shoot lower pressure rounds.

What do others have to say on the matter?

[Merc]

Joe,

All valid points especially limiting round count. My goal this year is to control the urge to keep on firing away at the range. Last time out, I brought my M1917 Winchester and my 1944 Enfield No. 4 Mk 1*. I fired five rounds through each rifle, consistently hit the target, packed up and went home. Last year, I probably would have fired a box of twenty through each rifle. The urge to keep shooting is still there but now it's time to consider the barrel life. This year, fewer trips to the range and five rounds per rifle, max.

Merc

[fguffey]

http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=introduction-to-30-06-cartridges

F. Guffey

[Merc]

http://cartridgecollectors.org/?page=introduction-to-30-06-cartridges

F. Guffey

Interesting sight. Collecting cartridges is a lot like collecting stamps. Where do you draw the line?

Merc