Lengthening a Sporterized '03A3 "C" Stock

[Stretch32]

All,

I'm trying to repair a sporterized 1903A3 Springfield "C" stock that was cut ahead of the lower barrel band. I picked up a fore-end repair piece from Dupage for the project so I have the correct piece to fix it but I'm not sure how to go about attaching it correctly.

I've made a few attempts to reattach the fore-end so far but I've not been able to keep from breaking after about 10 rounds or so. My initial attempts used wooden dowels to "pin" it and a small bridge of scrap wood to prevent it from pulling apart put this didn't work. I suspect the dowels were not long enough and the wood bridge actually splintered.

I'm using a recommended wood glue from "Garret Wade" but it seems to be too brittle and has cracked from the shock after a couple of rounds were fired. For my next attempt I've bought brass all-thread since I believe the wooden dowels are inadequate and I was thinking of building a more substantial bridge from a piece walnut routed into a groove between the two pieces but I need to find an adhesive that will hold it all together (both metal and wood, maybe JB Weld?).

My question, what method do you use to do this? It appears to be a common fix (the repair pieces are readily available anyway) but I can't seem to make it strong enough to hold together for repeated shooting. The rifle will be a shooter so it needs to be pretty tough.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Stretch

[Emri]

Use Brownells Acraglass. Get the gel and not the liquid as it is easier to work with. It will break somewhere else rather than where the acraglass has been used. The threaded rod and the bridge are both good Ideas.

Good Luck !!

Emri

[11mm]

All,

I'm trying to repair a sporterized 1903A3 Springfield "C" stock that was cut ahead of the lower barrel band. I picked up a fore-end repair piece from Dupage for the project so I have the correct piece to fix it but I'm not sure how to go about attaching it correctly.

I've made a few attempts to reattach the fore-end so far but I've not been able to keep from breaking after about 10 rounds or so. My initial attempts used wooden dowels to "pin" it and a small bridge of scrap wood to prevent it from pulling apart put this didn't work. I suspect the dowels were not long enough and the wood bridge actually splintered.

I'm using a recommended wood glue from "Garret Wade" but it seems to be too brittle and has cracked from the shock after a couple of rounds were fired. For my next attempt I've bought brass all-thread since I believe the wooden dowels are inadequate and I was thinking of building a more substantial bridge from a piece walnut routed into a groove between the two pieces but I need to find an adhesive that will hold it all together (both metal and wood, maybe JB Weld?).

My question, what method do you use to do this? It appears to be a common fix (the repair pieces are readily available anyway) but I can't seem to make it strong enough to hold together for repeated shooting. The rifle will be a shooter so it needs to be pretty tough.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Stretch

What I have done, with good success, is the following:
1)Make sure you cut your pieces to equal the length of a known good stock prior to gluing.
2)When a good, square cut is made, glue the two pieces together at the joint. Let them dry, but make sure the pieces are aligned correctly. One way you can do this, is to coat a barreled receiver with a very light coat of grease near the joint and clamp the pieces to it until the glue is well dried. The grease keeps the glue from sticking to the barrel. You can also assess the alignment easily and adjust as necessary. Strong rubber bands are a good clamp.
3)After the glue is dried, carefully put the pieces in a padded vise, being careful not to put too much lateral stress on the glue joint.
4)Because I have a milling machine, I use that with the vise clamped to the table. I then cut a 3/8" groove about 5/16" deep with an end mill in the barrel channel, about 2-3 inches either side of the joint. You can also do this with a conventional wood router, but you need to somehow guide the router so it makes a straight cut.
5)Then glue a piece of good strong wood in the groove. It should be an accurately cut piece of wood, slightly less than 3/8", going with the grain. I have used ash, cherry and clear spruce. Other woods are OK too.
6)The piece of wood glued in is then rounded to conform with the barrel channel.
7)For glue, I have used JBWeld and Devcon, but other epoxy based glues are fine. Make sure there is no grease or oil where you are gluing.
I have never done a 1903, but I have done a GEW98, two or three Krags, and a French Gras. All of them shoot as well as the same kind of rifle with an original stock.
Attached are two pictures of a Krag repair.
3442934430

[louis]

All are good recommendations. I'll add one the flat areas that are to be glued together be sure they are NOT smooth. I add cross cuts on both sides to ensure a good bond. You can use a hack saw blade or anything to roughen these surfaces.

[Dick Hosmer]

Very helpful - I have a couple of upcoming projects along this line, and, also have never done it before. Another question, is there any reason why the splice should not be under the center of the band? This would preserve the original arsenal shoulder, as well as making alignment much easier. The butted area of the glue joint would be no smaller, and the inletted brace would work just as well. Thoughts?

[StockDoc]

I hope it was not the doweling sold by Home Depot, that stuff is not strong at all. A quality Dowel, such as maple or black walnut and it should be strong enogh. No sanding of the joint, the sawdust in the pores tend to weaken the joint. AcraGlass would be the correct glue for this.

[Stretch32]

Gents,

Thanks for all the replies and the suggestions, I really appreciate the help.

I saw on YouTube where guys were soaking the ends to be glued in a bucket of acetone to get as much grease and crud out as possible prior to gluing. They were using this method on newer hunting stocks so I'm not sure if it's a safe idea to try on a 70 year old USGI stock. Any thoughts or is there a better was to degrease the parts prior to gluing?

I was told and have read that gel Acra-glass (from Brownell's) was a good adhesive but I've never tried it. I've also heard, although I have no experience so please tighten me up if I'm wrong, that JB Weld isn't ideal for wood. I use it for all sorts of stuff and have had really good luck with it but I think it's too hard(?) and would crack after repeatedly being shocked from the rifle shooting. I've tried filling wood glues so far but those are the glues that are cracking after only a few rounds. I do need a glue that has some gap filing capabilities since the two halves to be glued, while fairly straight and even, are not perfectly smooth after 2 attempts at trying attach and then sanding the old glue off. I don't want to do too much more sanding since I'm concerned I'll shorten the pieces to an unacceptable length causing problems with over all stock length.

EDIT: Just saw StockDocs comment regarding Acra-glass so I'll grab some of that.

11mm, I was planning to build a bridge but wasn't sure how. The way you did yours was what I was thinking so I'll give that a try. Should I used one of the suggested woods or will a chunk of old walnut work? My concern, and I may be over thinking it from an engineering standpoint, is the walnut bridge would flex and give just like the original stock pieces would since it's the same material. If there were different types of wood used I thought it might not flex or give the same when the rifle was fired and lead to cracking or splitting. I already have holes drilled for dowels but was thinking of drilling them out and using brass all-thread this go round to go with the bridge.

As a note, I was going to pin the stock halves with 3 brass all-thread pins prior to gluing I together and building the bridge. Is this overkill or would it be a good idea? I was thinking the 3 pins would provide the added strength needed to prevent it from splitting apart later and would compliment the bridge between the 2 pieces.

Really sorry for all the dumb questions but I'm pretty inexperienced with the whole process (woodworking and rifles). If I'm out to lunch on anything please let me know and if you have any more suggestions or thoughts on my planned repair process I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks again,

Stretch

[11mm]

Very helpful - I have a couple of upcoming projects along this line, and, also have never done it before. Another question, is there any reason why the splice should not be under the center of the band? This would preserve the original arsenal shoulder, as well as making alignment much easier. The butted area of the glue joint would be no smaller, and the inletted brace would work just as well. Thoughts?
Dick-
I am sure that would work. I have cut them close to the band shoulder(1/32"?), but not right on the shoulder if the wood has not been altered, but some of the sporterizers don't make that possible because they start beveling the surface forward right where the band would have been. Ultimately, a spare stock is the most convenient answer unless there is a cartouche or markings that must be preserved with that particular rifle, or stocks for the rifle are just plain rare/expensive/unobtainable.

[11mm]

Gents,

Thanks for all the replies and the suggestions, I really appreciate the help.

I saw on YouTube where guys were soaking the ends to be glued in a bucket of acetone to get as much grease and crud out as possible prior to gluing. They were using this method on newer hunting stocks so I'm not sure if it's a safe idea to try on a 70 year old USGI stock. Any thoughts or is there a better was to degrease the parts prior to gluing?

I was told and have read that gel Acra-glass (from Brownell's) was a good adhesive but I've never tried it. I've also heard, although I have no experience so please tighten me up if I'm wrong, that JB Weld isn't ideal for wood. I use it for all sorts of stuff and have had really good luck with it but I think it's too hard(?) and would crack after repeatedly being shocked from the rifle shooting. I've tried filling wood glues so far but those are the glues that are cracking after only a few rounds. I do need a glue that has some gap filing capabilities since the two halves to be glued, while fairly straight and even, are not perfectly smooth after 2 attempts at trying attach and then sanding the old glue off. I don't want to do too much more sanding since I'm concerned I'll shorten the pieces to an unacceptable length causing problems with over all stock length.

11mm, I was planning to build a bridge but wasn't sure how. The way you did yours was what I was thinking so I'll give that a try. Should I used one of the suggested woods or will a chunk of old walnut work? My concern, and I may be over thinking it from an engineering standpoint, is the walnut bridge would flex and give just like the original stock pieces would since it's the same material. If there were different types of wood used I thought it might not flex or give the same when the rifle was fired and lead to cracking or splitting. I already have holes drilled for dowels but was thinking of drilling them out and using brass all-thread this go round to go with the bridge.

As a note, I was going to pin the stock halves with 3 brass all-thread pins prior to gluing I together and building the bridge. Is this overkill or would it be a good idea? I was thinking the 3 pins would provide the added strength needed to prevent it from splitting apart later and would compliment the bridge between the 2 pieces.

Really sorry for all the dumb questions but I'm pretty inexperienced with the whole process (woodworking and rifles). If I'm out to lunch on anything please let me know and if you have any more suggestions or thoughts on my planned repair process I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks again,

Stretch

1) I imagine that walnut would work just fine. Once you introduce the glue and any new wood, you are essentially introducing a laminate situation. I am not sure how walnut would flex with shooting, but it should do just as well as the woods I have used. I did one Krag 20 years ago, and the people who own it are still shooting it.
2) I have not used pins, but I can't see how they could hurt, if you can insert them in such a way that you don't cause a mis-alignment. I am speculating, but it would seem that using brass pins might introduce a secondary "node" for vibration (and fracture) in that area, whereas all wood is more homogenous. But I don't know enough about engineering to do more than speculate about that.
3)I am sure Acra-glass is just fine as a glue. I have never had a joint break with the rifles I have spliced, but with the exception noted above, I have not shot them a lot. However, an 03A3 stock is shorter than those I have been working with, and it may be more rigid, so it may react differently.

I remember that I found out about one of the Krags that I had to repair by shooting it. The sly devil on Gunbroker who sold it to me did not mention that it had been spliced. It had been very well done and hidden, but the dowel pulled out on the first shot.

[Stretch32]

Dick-
I am sure that would work. I have cut them close to the band shoulder(1/32"?), but not right on the shoulder if the wood has not been altered, but some of the sporterizers don't make that possible because they start beveling the surface forward right where the band would have been. Ultimately, a spare stock is the most convenient answer unless there is a cartouche or markings that must be preserved with that particular rifle, or stocks for the rifle are just plain rare/expensive/unobtainable.


11mm,

This is my problem to some extent. I picked up a very nice '03A3 "C" stock for a small price and, although I'm not a collector by any means, I like the fact that there are some nice cartouches on it. It was cut ahead of the lower band and I figured it would be an easy fix but it has proven otherwise so far. I'd really like a nice a "C" stock for my shooter but a real one is $350-$400 (way more than I want to spend for what I'm doing) or the new repros don't fit well and just aren't as nice so the reviews say. At this point I have a really nice USGI replacement Scant stock on it (no cartouches) that works well but I much prefer the pistol grip for a shooter.

As a side note, I have access to a "C" stock that is cut for an '03 or '03A1 that somebody buggered up a glass bedding job on. It's not shortened so would only require cutting a groove for the hand guard retaining ring I think but it is completely gunked up with the old bedding. Is there a way to strip the old bedding out of it short of sanding it out, maybe some sort of chemical? I have no idea what sort of bedding it is but it looks like plastic at this point. This may be easier than repairing the sporterized stock I'm currently working with if I can get the glass bedding stripped out and figure out how to inlet it for an '03A3.

Stretch

[JimF]

Don't know how much I can add to this discussion, but . . . .

I've spliced a few GI bring-backs of K98's that had the so-called "duffle-cut".

I used two, three-inch, 1/4x20 stove bolts and accraglass.

Cut the heads off the bolts . . . .drill OVERSIZE holes on each side of the cleaning rod hole in both the stock and the stub that was separated.

DRY fit the two . . . taking note that you do NOT want a tight fit of the two "pins" (re-bar) into either the stock or the stub.

Also, remember that when GI Joe cut off the stub the saw kerf must be allowed for. (Probably LESS than 1/8"!)

Fill the two holes HALFWAY (about) in both stock and stub with accraglass . . .

Assemble entire rifle after coating the barrel near the lower band position. (The barrel will help with alignment.)

Insert COATED (to stop adhesion) band spring to maintain CORRECT spacing of stub on the end of the stock. (This corrects for the saw kerf.)

Slide on the lower band (also COATED) to align stub and stock correctly, and allow to set over night.

As I said, I don't know if I helped, but I hope I did. --Jim

[11mm]

11mm,

This is my problem to some extent. I picked up a very nice '03A3 "C" stock for a small price and, although I'm not a collector by any means, I like the fact that there are some nice cartouches on it. It was cut ahead of the lower band and I figured it would be an easy fix but it has proven otherwise so far. I'd really like a nice a "C" stock for my shooter but a real one is $350-$400 (way more than I want to spend for what I'm doing) or the new repros don't fit well and just aren't as nice so the reviews say. At this point I have a really nice USGI replacement Scant stock on it (no cartouches) that works well but I much prefer the pistol grip for a shooter.

As a side note, I have access to a "C" stock that is cut for an '03 or '03A1 that somebody buggered up a glass bedding job on. It's not shortened so would only require cutting a groove for the hand guard retaining ring I think but it is completely gunked up with the old bedding. Is there a way to strip the old bedding out of it short of sanding it out, maybe some sort of chemical? I have no idea what sort of bedding it is but it looks like plastic at this point. This may be easier than repairing the sporterized stock I'm currently working with if I can get the glass bedding stripped out and figure out how to inlet it for an '03A3.

Stretch

I don't know about what vehicle, plastic or glue they used in the glass bedding on the type C complete stock you have, but I would imagine that you could sand it out. Cutting the groove for the O3A3 hand guard ring would require some pretty close work with with a sharp chisel, but I am sure somebody with a fine wood working shop could do it.
They do make ball shaped carbide or hardened steel burrs that could fit in a power drill that would make the job of getting the old glass out easier. It would be necessary to go lightly so as not to gouge the underlying wood. It would remove a lot of material which would then be easier to sand to a finish. I see that Fastenal sells them up to 1" in diameter, but the are not cheap. They make ball shaped grinding wheels (available on ebay for example) as well, but they might load up with whatever plastic is in the glass bedding. You could clean the burr with a wire brush if that happened. I don't know about the grinding wheels, though. Maybe.
A solvent might remove the old bedding...maybe acetone?
I have an excellent 03A3 OGEK cartouched (Elmer Keith, supposedly) C stock on my 1932 made 1903 rifle, and I have been looking for years for a type C that was made for the 1903. It shoots just fine with that later stock, so it is not a problem, but still....

[Parashooter]

Although this sketch is for a US Krag, the same kind of dovetail will work on a 1903 forearm graft. Using the dovetail provides mechanical strength as well as increased gluing surface. If the main butt joint is centered under the band, the female dovetails are positively prevented from expanding and splitting under recoil, even if the glue slips. There's no glue made that can substitute for a strong mechanical joint. Cutting a dovetail like this requires little more than a very sharp 3/8" chisel and a steady hand.

http://i53.tinypic.com/10x97v6.jpg

It's basically the same kind of joint traditional luthiers often use to attach instrument necks.

http://ultimate-guitar-building.com/wp-content/uploads/dovetailjoint.jpg

[sdkrag]

All the above are great methods and advice. I will just add that Acraglass gel is the best stuff out there.

[Stretch32]

Gents,

Thanks for all the replies. My new plan is:

Drill and fit 2 brass all-thread rods since I've already got dowel holes drilled. I'll make them deeper so the all thread has a better bite.

Glue all- thread rods in with Acraglas being sure there's some play so I can fine tune the alignment of the fore end to the buttstock while glue is drying. Also make sure there's plenty of glue between fore end and buttstock so there's plenty of strength.

Once glue is dried and everything is good I'll route a channel that extends between the two parts. The routed grove will be a dove tail as suggested.

Make a dove tail piece from walnut or another hard wood and glue / clamp this into the pre-cut groove. Clamp it down to make sure there's a good bond and let it cure.

Once the dove tail is cured I'll sand it down as required to match the contour of the stock under the barrel.

From there I'll drill one counter sunk hole at each end of the dove tail and insert a small brass wood screw making sure not to drill through the bottom and done.

All this is based off suggestions above. Any thoughts?

Thanks again,

Stretch

[Parashooter]

The screw holes will simply weaken the joint by cutting across wood fibers that would otherwise remain intact. Make a close-fitting dovetail and there's no need for them.

[Emri]

Gents,

Thanks for all the replies. My new plan is:

Drill and fit 2 brass all-thread rods since I've already got dowel holes drilled. I'll make them deeper so the all thread has a better bite.

Glue all- thread rods in with Acraglas being sure there's some play so I can fine tune the alignment of the fore end to the buttstock while glue is drying. Also make sure there's plenty of glue between fore end and buttstock so there's plenty of strength.

Once glue is dried and everything is good I'll route a channel that extends between the two parts. The routed grove will be a dove tail as suggested.

Make a dove tail piece from walnut or another hard wood and glue / clamp this into the pre-cut groove. Clamp it down to make sure there's a good bond and let it cure.

Once the dove tail is cured I'll sand it down as required to match the contour of the stock under the barrel.

From there I'll drill one counter sunk hole at each end of the dove tail and insert a small brass wood screw making sure not to drill through the bottom and done.

All this is based off suggestions above. Any thoughts?

Thanks again,

Stretch


I see no fault with your plan except the added screws as a final touch. Like Parashooter said, not needed.

Good Luck !!

Emri

[Stretch32]

Thanks again Gents.

I'll delete the screws and build this up with everything else. We'll see how it does once I get it together. Either way, I'll try and post an update once I get it together for future reference.

Thanks again.

Stretch

[Stretch32]

An update to this project.

I was able to get the fore end reattached a few weeks ago using your recommendations and some ideas from a friend of mine who is very good at wood working.

What we ended up doing was drilling the pilot holes for the all-thread much deeper in to both the buttstock and the fore end so there would be more surface area. We then cut a groove between the two pieces with the original plan of making a bridge, as suggested, for a tight fitting piece of hard wood. Instead, we taped everything up really well and filled the pilot holes with a high quality 2-part marine epoxy and inserted the all-thread then generously coated to 2 mating surfaces and pushed everything together. From there, with help from my buddy, we poured epoxy into the previously cut groove and used this to form the bridge instead of the using a piece of cut hard wood (since epoxy is significantly tougher than wood). With the rifle now on a stand that allowed my to work on it without tipping it over I installed the action and upper hand guard along with some of the barrel bands to get everything lined up. Lastly I used zip ties on the end of the fore end and barrel to give the 5-10 lbs of upward pressure required with a 1903.

Once everything was dry I removed the tape and cleaned up the seam between the two parts. I then used a sanding drum on my Dremel and cleaned the barrel groove so it was smooth and no dried epoxy touched the barrel.

I took it out and shot about 50 rds through it and everything appears to be good so far.

I understand this would probably be a less than ideal solution for somebody looking to restore a rifle but, from a shooter stand point, it appears to be a pretty solid fix that doesn't have any effect on overall shootablity.

Stretch

[sprg03]

One of the reasons joints in a stock fail is they often have Cosmoline or grease soaked into the stock as a preservative. Before applying glue to any stock joint, use a liberal amount of Acetone to remove any oil or grease on the surface to be bonded. Allow the acetone to dry, then apply the adhesive. For alignment, clamp the stock using a wooden dowel, the size of the barrel channel, wrapped in wax paper to prevent the dowel from adhering to the adhesive. I Use an old, junk barrel for this purpose and several clamps down the length of the stock. After the clamps on the barrel are in place, I use a long clamp attached from the butt stock to the fore end. This adds a slight amount of tension to the joint, ensuring the stock and the added fore end are clamped tightly together. The long clamp does not require any great force, just enough to ensure the joint is tight. Too much tension on the long clamp will put a bow in the stock/fore end. Leave the stock in the clamps overnight before removing them.