1896 Krag Carbine (early S/N)

[joemel12]

Good evening to all. A member od the forum suggested I post some photos of another 1896 Krag Carbine I recently acquired. Before doing I'm introducing myself as a 63 year old new to the addiction of collecting USGI Martial Weapons. My collection goals are to have examples that span the era of the Krag to M-14/M1A. Living in South Carolina but born a raised a Yankee, I've traveled the country now settled. I spent some in the RVN 71-73 as a Navy Corpsman;FMF Medivac. My collection is intended to pass on the history of men who carried the arms as well as the story of the weapon to my three sons and grand children.That said back to the title or topic of the post. I have photos attached of my latest example with a question that remains unanswered. The majority of the Krag Carbines I possess have blued or evidence of blued receivers. Others though as the photos attached have a mottled silver/gray metallic character . My only research has shown that some Krags were left case hardened and never blued with no rhyme or reason as to why. I doubt we find a soldier or Marine who wants to carry a shiny metallic weapon onto a battlefield. After reviewing the attachments please let me know you thoughts on what I have and thoughts on the noted receiver color difference. Thanks for any replies and knowledge you share.

Joe

http://imgur.com/jrbIjW6
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[Rick the Librarian]

Welcome to the forum!! You'll find a lot of helpful people here -- they've been VERY patient with me, so you should be a snap in comparison! :)

[BEAR]

Welcome to the forum!! You'll find a lot of helpful people here -- they've been VERY patient with me, so you should be a snap in comparison! :)

Not to mention we are all terrified of a full expo on the Afghan, so we must be nice to you.

[Rick the Librarian]

You mean THIS?? :)

http://www.fototime.com/83B14E14DB35502/standard.jpg

[BEAR]

AAAAAARGH! My eyes, my eyes!

[joemel12]

Rick,
Snuggling up in an Afghan has taken on a different meaning for me. Very nice example. I'm referencing the Krag not the Afghan.
Joe

[psteinmayer]

LOL... As long as it's an Afghan (throw), not an Afghan (from Afghanistan)! Heehee

[Rick the Librarian]

For the benefit of Joe, our new poster, back in my early collecting years, I used to take quick pictures of new rifles in a chair covered by a rather "colorful" afghan my mother made before I was born. As you can see, the afghan received considerable "comment"! :)

[dave]

To answer posters question. Receivers were case hardened and then blued, blue just does not penetrate well on case hardening, wears rather quickly compared to non-case harded steel.

[madsenshooter]

I would like to look, actually saw a few of the pics. You're right it is an early carbine, made shortly after the 1896 Cadet rifles. I guess my firefox browser doesn't like where the images are posted, after the 5th browser crash, I gave up.

[Dick Hosmer]

When I visited Rick last August, wearing my darkest sunglasses, even in gray-skies Washington, the first thing I asked to see was the afghan, but he mumbled some excuse about not being able to find it. I'd think that thing would glow right through a closet door!!!!! Actually, my first wife, bless her soul, made one almost as vivid - made it hard to sleep.

[Rick the Librarian]

Dick, all kidding aside, what do you think of the offered 1896 carbine?

(P.S. Make another trip up here and I'll GUARANTEE I'll have the afghan displayed in all it's glory!) :)

[butlersrangers]

IMHO and experience - Casehardened Colors, in various states of wear and fading, reflect the original Armory finish on a Krag receiver. This finish is quite fragile and in time goes from 'Water quenched mottled colors or Sperm oil quenched black-blue' to a kind of 'silver gray'.

Krag receivers that appear darkly 'blued' have probably, at best, undergone some pre-WW1 re-build and, at worst, a Civilian 're-finish'.

The posted pictures appear to me to be a receiver that acquired a heavy surface rust, that was aggressively cleaned with abrasives, leaving speckled areas of surface rust.

(Photos showing about as good as a Krag can survive).
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[joemel12]

Butlersrangers
Thanks for the feedback. I've tried my best to locate anything looking like rust while stripping her for cleaning. Why the question is I that have a few Krag carbines varying in SN range. Three purchased from the same collector with two having this mottled appearance and the other not. His collection was vast. His answer had to with an alleged inconsistency as to the temperature the receiver was heated to. Supposedly the same is what lead to the development of a lighter 30-40 Krag load. In this I'm only the messenger and not speaking with data. Form my limited collection of Krag rifles and carbines, no rhyme or reason, some have this same mottled aging and the others typical aged bluing. Hence the question. I've looked for any type of scarring on the receiver and metal work from use of an abrasive scrub and found none on any of the examples with the mottled appearance. Your logic is sound and thank you for sharing. I'll have to be more cautious on purchases going forward.
Thanks,
Joe

[butlersrangers]

'joemel12' - To the best of my understanding and from observation, Krag receivers that have not been refinished will have mottled colors. Sometimes they are obvious 'case-colors' and sometimes various hues of gray & black.

The receivers were case-hardened and quenched at the end of the process. Water quenching blackened them and the scale was carded off. (Sperm oil quenching like on Trap-door Springfield blocks gave more vibrant colors). With some surface wear, case hardened receivers begin to look 'silvery'. The surface is tough and hard, but, the color is not.

The pictures of your receiver look to me like someone once cleaned it with courser grades of 'steel wool'. There is what appears to be surface scratches. Your dark patches look like black rust stains (I sure could be wrong. I am looking at your internet pictures and not the real thing). BTW - You have a nice looking model 1896 carbine!

Attached are 3 example pictures: #1. Shows a Krag loading-gate with strong mottled grays. Bubba pencil-graved his SS# through the tough surface finish. #2. Shows rather vibrant case-colors. #3. Shows typical worn subdued mottled grays.

I think these examples show a progression of wear on the Krags' case-hardened finish. When first manufactured, the Krag did not show a dark homogeneous 'Blue' color on its receiver like more modern guns and finishes.

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[butlersrangers]

Original Poster's model 1896 Krag appears to show some discoloration, due to rust and rust removal - IMHO.

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[joemel12]

Thanks again for the reply and believe me I see what you're reporting. I just unfortunately must have run into a collector "cleaning out his safe" selling off lower examples. Buyer beware. His information and explanation as to the discoloration sounded logical to me over the years along with limited research. My sons gifted me the posted example acquired from the same collector. Their only requirement was " the oldest carbine he was willing to part with". I hate to see they made a bad purchase from my example. Of course they'll never know that. None the less I truly appreciate your assessment and glad to see others comfortable posting their honest assessment.

Joe

[butlersrangers]

'joemel12' - Model 1896 Krag carbines are very desireable and you appear to have a nice example. (It is not my intention to have you feeling negative about your carbine or another collector).

Most 1896 carbines were subjected to rather hard service. I was just trying to explain my understanding of the Krag receiver's original finish.

[Dick Hosmer]

That does appear to be a very nice carbine, and there is nothing wrong with a mottled silvery appearance to a receiver. The original black oil case was not a permanent finish, and a blued receiver is almost always the result of being redone. 1896 Carbines and 1892 Rifles were the primary weapons used in Cuba. My only concern about that carbine would be the later thick-wrist stock, cut for oiler. It is probably not original to the gun as first issued.

[joemel12]

Mr. Hosner,

Do you ave any thoughts on what the rebuilds or referenced rebuilds of 96's to I thought '98 standards included? Again showing an attempt to learn.

Thanks Joe

[Kragrifle]

Pick up a copy of Brophy's and Mallory's books (second edition).

[Rick the Librarian]

They won't be cheap, but the best out there - Mallory is better although the photos in Brophy are better.

[Dick Hosmer]

Mr. Hosner,

Do you ave any thoughts on what the rebuilds or referenced rebuilds of 96's to I thought '98 standards included? Again showing an attempt to learn.

Thanks Joe

The biggest difference between the 1896 and 1898 is the receiver profile at the root of the bolt handle, so it is not really a case of "rebuilding to 1898 standards". The stock was gradually upgraded. The very earliest ones had a thin wrist and only two rod holes, then a third hole was added, then the wrist was thickened and, lastly, the oiler cut was added, in 1897. Presumably, if a carbine came in for R&R, the oiler cut may have been added - but thin-wrist stocks would have been discarded out of hand. All of these changes took place before the Model 1898, when the stocks lost interchangeability, due to afore-mentioned receiver profile. You can put 1898 metal in 1896 wood but not vice-versa, though the Armory would not have done so. They produced replacement (the earliest thin-wrist stocks had a severe problem with breakage) stocks to accept the 1896 receiver right up until the end, in both the original 30" length as well as the 32" stocks introduced for the Model 1899. While minor, interchangeable tweaking occurred, the major change in Krags was to sights and handguards. You might want to refer to my webpage at www.picturetrail.com/sa4570af


Note to OP: Received your PM - the webpage noted above will help you.