Need Info On Remington

[Marty T.]

Have opportunity to buy a Remington M1917 30-06 in 424xxx s/n range with 7-18 Remington barrel. All I have is pics, have not held in my hands so I don't know any particulars other than rifle looks in good condition and is in military configuration as far as stock and parts go. Price is $475 but I'm finding out if that is out the door or if tax and background is included. Question is, is that a good price or should I try to get him down some more? Thanks.
Marty

[tmark]

Assuming the muzzle wear is between 0 and 3 at the most and the throat erosion is within specs, I think that is a fair price. Chances are that rifle has a mix of R, E, and/or W parts.

Have the seller put the pointed end of a bullet into the muzzle. If the muzzle swallows the bullet, the muzzle is worn out. The bullet should stop in the muzzle just at the point where the curved part of the bullet meets the "straight" part of the bullet.

[Merc]

I'd say $475 is a pretty good price. Hopefully you'll be able to see it beforehand. Just be aware that most M1917s dated after January, 1918 probably saw service in Europe and should be inspected for excessive barrel and head space wear.

Because of parts interchangeability issues that all three OEMs had early, a lot of M1917s that were made in 1917 never made it overseas. This was particularly true with Winchesters that were stamped with a star in a circle on the receiver that indicated they would stay in the U S. Nothing is wrong with the early Winchesters. In fact, they often command higher prices.

If you're planning to shoot it, I'd bring a bore light, a .30-06 bullet to check the muzzle and a head space field gauge along assuming you'll be able to see it in person. Look on the Internet for instructions on how to disassemble the bolt to check head space or have a gunsmith check head space prior to the purchase. Head space field gauges can be acquired at Brownells.

Inspect for a damaged or repaired stock and missing parts. Look for corrosion on external parts and the bolt body surface. Don't expect all parts to be made by Remington because they generally used whatever was available when service was required. Eddystone and Remington parts seem to be more common than Winchester. I would at least want the stock and bolt to be Remington. You can find the rest of the parts on eBay or from parts dealers if you want to make it parts correct.

There's a book by C.S. Ferris titled "United States Rifle Model of 1917" that tells the story of this rifle. Amazon sells them for around $20 plus shipping.

Merc

[kcw]

Have opportunity to buy a Remington M1917 30-06 in 424xxx s/n range with 7-18 Remington barrel. All I have is pics, have not held in my hands so I don't know any particulars other than rifle looks in good condition and is in military configuration as far as stock and parts go. Price is $475 but I'm finding out if that is out the door or if tax and background is included. Question is, is that a good price or should I try to get him down some more? Thanks.
Marty

Understand that even with its original barrel, the rifle could still be a WWII refurbished unit; in which case the barreled receiver would likely have been sand blasted, black parked and the piece refitted with a completely random selection of used, new and NOS parts. Not that a WWII refurbished rifle is a bad thing, but it won't be a WWI factory original if that's what you're looking for.

[Marty T.]

No, just looking for a representative example. Thanks for all advice and info. Will be going to look at it Mon. or Wed. and see exactly what it is and do some checking on what's what. Will use info from here to make decision. Just not sure of the value of these and didn't want to overpay for what I was getting if I decide to go for it. Any more advice will be appreciated.

[dave]

Here in MI at gun shows any 1917 is asking price of 700-800 bucks.

[JB White]

Regarding the star in a circle. I have heard that story about "not for overseas" before, but that is in contradiction to that same star also appearing on the earlier Pattern 1914. That star is said to be a standard Winchester marking indicating the improved locking lug.

[Merc]

The high end in today's market for a M1917 that most collectors would be willing to pay is probably somewhere around $1200 for one in pristine parts correct condition inside and out.

I searched a lot of gun shows in western PA over the past year and saw many '17s that were in average used war-time condition with mixed parts. Most were being offered in the $500 to $700 price range. Nearly all had some condition issues with dark corroded bores being the most common.

The price of the '17 you're considering might be somewhat below average which means there could be condition issues to consider and is the reason I'm suggesting that you come prepared to identify them if they exist.

I paid $29 plus shipping costs for a Clymer .30-06 Sprg head space field gauge at Brownells.

Good luck and let us know how you do.

Merc

[Merc]

JB,

Check out page no.16 in the C. S. Ferris book "United States Rifle Model Of 1917" where he goes into great detail about the "Winchester Problem" and the circle star stamp.

Merc

[IditarodJoe]

Because of parts interchangeability issues that all three OEMs had early, a lot of M1917s that were made in 1917 never made it overseas. This was particularly true with Winchesters that were stamped with a star in a circle on the receiver that indicated they would stay in the U S. Nothing is wrong with the early Winchesters. In fact, they often command higher prices.

I would "mostly" agree with this statement. For reasons unknown, star marking continued at Winchester until sometime between January 17 and 23, 1918 and then ended. No rifles from any of the three manufacturers were shipped to Europe until some time after the March 7, 1918 interchangeability test at Eddystone established that rifles made at all three factories after January 1, 1918 demonstrated satisfactory interchangeability. A further clarification, issued by order of the Secretary of War and dated June 24, 1918, specifically stated that all Winchester rifles having 1918 barrel dates could be sent overseas. I read that to mean that star marked Winchesters having 1-18 barrels could go to war.

That said, my star marked Winchester, made in mid-January 1918 and bearing a 1-18 barrel, is in such beautiful condition that, if it did ever go to Europe, I think it must have been on the "tourist plan". :icon_lol:

[Marty T.]

I think it may be an issue of just wanting to get it out. He has a small shop in his garage and is planning on not doing any more walkin customer work. Just doing "order" items. Had it originally priced at $600, then $550, then $500, and when I contacted him with questions, it was $475 out the door. So probably no real "issues" other than needing it gone so he has no problem with people showing up at the shop.
Have some go and no/go gauges, will take them with me and check headspace, bore, and see if I can identify who made what parts.
Thanks all.

[Merc]

Try a field gauge if the bolt closes on a no-go gauge.

Merc

[JB White]

JB,

Check out page no.16 in the C. S. Ferris book "United States Rifle Model Of 1917" where he goes into great detail about the "Winchester Problem" and the circle star stamp.

Merc

It's been quite a while since I read it so I looked back again. Skimming through I can see where he doesn't quite confirm the officers letters and Winchesters actions etc. and leaves it just a tad open ended. Thanks for the invite to go back though. I'll probably read the book again but more slowly this time :)

Might like to add there is a difference in regard to the marking. The M1917 wears it on the left rail whereas the P14 wears it on the receiver ring.

+1 on the Field Gauge. The Go and No Go are used when breeching up a barrel within specs. Specs which take into consideration wear and tear along with stretch. The Field gauge determines whether or not a used rifle is still within safe parameters.

[Merc]

The government's ban on sending pre-1918 M1917s to the war made it possible that a few hundred thousand rifles manufactured by all three OEMs in 1917 were lightly used for training purposes in the U S during the war and placed in storage after the war since the M1903 remained the standard army rifle. It's reasonable to expect that these early rifles are going to be in better condition than those that were made in 1918 that most likely saw war-time service. This isn't something that's mentioned much but should be considered when shopping around for a M1917. It helps to be aware of the rifle's history and to know what to do when you find one.

[Merc]

IditarodJoe,

You're exactly correct. No rifles made in 1917 were sent to Europe, according to Ferris' book.

I also have an early Winchester that was made in November, 1917 and it's also in great shape. I shot it for the first time recently with the ladder sight bottomed at the lowest setting at a 50 yard target. It was right on target and did much better than I expected.

I learned much about W '17s after I bought it and I suspect the parts interchangeability problem was probably why early Ws are in so much better condition than later Es and Rs. They weren't used much. Hearing about the condition of your early W more or less confirms my uneducated guess.

A good question might be: what specifically was the parts interchangeability problem that we hear so much about? My W had more parts from E and R than W including the most important item - E bolt that's still in it. I've changes most of the parts back over to W except the bolt. Does anyone know? I might post this question on a separate thread and see what others think.

Merc

[Marty T.]

Looked it over tonight. Has Rem rec. and barrel, E bolt, W stock, not able to check internals. Has rebuild stamp on stock, so mixed parts are a given. Said he would take $450 bottom dollar. Forgot my gauges for go, no/go, but he has been shooting it so apparently it functions and bullet test on muzzle was good.
No rust or pitting anywhere and wood is solid. What say you all? Worth it?

[Merc]

I'd say $450 is a bargain for a shootable '17. They were durable battle rifles with a very robust action. Lots of Remington parts seem to be out there if you need them. It must have had good basics if they thought enough of it to do an armory rebuild. It probably only saw a few months of war-time action if it was made in 7/18. The war ended 4 months later.

It's interesting that it wound up with a Winchester stock. They are in demand these days and yours could be worth a few hundred dollars alone if it's in good shape.

If you're comfortable, then I say go for it and enjoy yourself. Let us know how it shoots.

Merc

[IditarodJoe]

I agree with Merc. Barring any as yet unmentioned defect, $450 sounds like an excellent price and the rifle in question sounds like a good "representative example".

For years, I've heard stories about WWI "cleaning parties" where soldiers would strip their rifles and toss all of the smaller parts into a communal pot of solvent. As the story goes, after cleaning the parts they'd reassemble their rifles without regard to which part came from which rifle. No idea how true this is, but in my experience truly original Model of 1917 rifles are extremely rare. So much so, that I would automatically consider any 100% correct 1917 to be the product of some collector's "restoration" project unless there were other really compelling evidence to the contrary.

As Marty T implied, a rifle with a rebuild stamp will invariably have a mixture of manufacturers' parts. My 1917 has two rebuild stamps: RA-P (Raritan Arsenal) and 3GM-K. Last I knew, although the 3GM-K stamp is common, nobody as yet knows its source. Has any progress been made on this front?

[Merc]

Iditarod Joe,

I Googled "3GM-K" and found it mentioned on several forums. One particular forum contributor says it was a rebuild mark of the Light Division of General Motors.

Go to: http://myplace.frontier.com/~aleccorapinski/id9.html That sight is for the M1 and has a number of marks listed and says the 3GM-K mark has a connection to WW2.

Merc

[IditarodJoe]

Thanks Merc.

The link you posted doesn't work for me, but I've heard speculation in the past that the GM might stand for General Motors. That's an easy leap considering the auto industry's involvement with the military during and after WW2, but I haven't heard of any credible confirmation. Keep in mind that there are still collectors out there who believe 1903A3 bolts marked "CC" were made by Chrysler Corporation although that's been disproved. Maybe 3GM-K is destined to remain one of life's great mysteries. :icon_lol:

[Merc]

The '17 is probably the only exception I can think of to the rule of mixed parts rifles. Most other antique rifles would be considered devalued if assembled with mismatching parts. However, it's more acceptable in the case of '17s because mixing parts was such a common practice.

A '17 with original parts is more interesting to me. I began replacing several R and E parts on my W rifle out of necessity. They were either worn or were OK but didn't fit very well.

The magazine box was a R and would fall out of the rifle if the trigger guard was removed. The replacement magazine box that I found on eBay is unissued NOS W and must be a bit larger than the R because it fits tightly into the stock as it should. The W magazine box that I bought would probably be too large to fit in a R stock. This would qualify as a parts compatibility issue that kept the early Ws in the US.

The trigger and sear were both E and were worn and loose. I took the assembly apart and found the holes were enlarged and trigger pin had been "worked" by someone with a chisel in an attempt to tighten things up. Replacing those items was needed to restore proper function. This is a good example of the dangers of mixing parts when cleaning several rifles at once. Worn parts from a war-weary E that was possibly fired several thousand times wound up in my (star circle stamped) W that never left the US and was possibly fired a few hundred times.

I'll continue to replace all the non-W parts with originals when I can find them. Certain parts will work better since they were made for the rifle (although my minty E bolt that head spaces and works perfectly might be hard to give up). Besides, chasing all these parts on the Internet has given me something to do and has kept me off the streets.

Merc

[Merc]

Joe,

Try that sight again. I left something out. It works now.

Merc