Springfield Armory M1922 MII Stock Cartouche Question

[1903nm]

Ok, I am no expert, but have a 22 I plan on firing for the first time this week-end. I cleaned the barrel and will pick up ammo tomorrow. I looked at the stock and only noticed a circled P until this morning when I saw with a magnifying glass a star stamped behind the rear swivel. I couldn't find any history on this cartouche for a Springfield. The stock is a straight finger groove stock. The rifle is drilled and tapped but does not have a Lyman rear sight. Would anyone know what this cartouche was for or and if this would be considered a military training rifle, possible DCM sale or something else?

Thank you, especially for the guy here that told me what all types of ammo to try out. I think using a ladder sight will make for a fun sort of day.

[n64atlas]

can you post pics of the rifle?

[1903nm]

My camera is not good at all but I will send one from it.35064

[m1903rifle]

A M1922 with a M1903 type barrel? It's not a Hoffer-Thompson is it?

[cplnorton]

Ok this has my curiosity peaked, can you post more pics?

[Cosine26]

It looks to me like an M2 that has had a FRSB added and installed in a M1903 Type "S" stock so that the owner could practice with a .22 that simulated a M1903. Not rare, but uncommon. Herschel says that he sees them often at gun shows.
FWIW

[1903nm]

First, I don't believe it is a Hoffer-Thompson. It looks and feels so much like just a regular issued 1903 Springfield. The stock is full length and parts and sights look identical. I tried to upload another picture and the site told me it was too large.

I picked up this rifle at a gunshow for practicing purposes about ten years ago when my son told me that his carbine was too light for him to use in the local Garand/Springfield match. It has just sat in the gun-safe until recently when I got the urge to shoot this thing. I also tried to take a picture of the little five point star cartouche I was questioning but it was too light to show up.

[m1903rifle]

OK......I didn't notice the M2 bolt the first time. Probably the way SA should have made them originally because they would have been a better training rifle ( closer to the M1903 ).

[Herschel]

The Model of 1922 Springfield was created for sale to National Rifle Association members. This is mentioned in the June 1, 1922 issue of Arms and The Man magazine in an article entitled "The U. S. Springfield, Model 1922. Calibre .22". The rifles were shipped to the NRA. They were intended for target and hunting use. The US bought many of them back when it was realized they would be useful for gallery practice In my years of collecting the 1922 Springfield series I have owned a couple and seen a few others that were in either the 1903 or 1903A3 stocks. I have not been able to find any documentation that these in the .30 cal stocks were made up by Springfield Armory or one of arsenals. I agree with m1903rifle that it is certainly not a Hoffer-Thompson. If the barrel has a .22 cal insert it could be one of the Numrich conversion kits sold in the late 1950's. Most likely it is a 1922MII or M2 in the 1903 stock.

[cplnorton]

I almost didn't say anything because I sort of wanted to find one of these first. :) But Tim Plowman found a Marine Corps document at the archives to build some of these as trainers. They specifically state to convert some M2's, by putting on a rear sight base and sight, and stock them in a service stock.

I can't remember if it states how many they were to convert or what year it was done. But it my memory is right, it was right before WWII or at the start of WWII. If I get bored I will go back and look to see if it says how many to convert and then what the date was.

Now whether this one was done by the Marines or someone else, I doubt there is anyway to know. But some of these were converted and used by the Marines at least.

[1903nm]

Thanks to all for the notes!! In looking at it more this past week, I kind of thought it was in the military service at some point because the bolt was swapped as the serial number doesn't match (possibly soldiers looking to get better accuracy). With a bit of parkerizing missing it must have been used a bit. What was astounding was the stock, which has no dents or scratches on absolutely museum quality walnut wood. So, I guess it was re-stocked later before it got out into the commercial world. I've had it for six years now and can hardly wait to take it to the range,

Again thanks to all for your comments and wisdom.

[cplnorton]

I actually found it. The order is dated Oct 1940 and they converted 300. They used stocks that were unserviceable for .30. So I imagine broken stocks that were repaired, but wouldn't hold up to the larger caliber.


Just out of morbid curiosity 1903NM, you might post some detailed pics of that rifle and see if we see any regular Marine 1903 traits on it. I have no clue what they would look like and whether the Marines did anything to them other than restock them and put on a 1903 rear sight. But I would be curious to see if we can see anything Marine on it. :)

Also look for any repairs on that stock. ;)

[Kragrifle]

I have a similar rifle, M2 in a grasping groove stock. Would you mind posting a copy of those orders? I had heard the story before, but had never seen any documentation.

[Cosine26]

I believe that without an examination of the rifle by an expert (with more knowledge than I) or more information, it will not be possible to identify correctly what this rifle is. For example:
1.What are the receiver markings?
2. What are the barrel markings?
3. Does the action have clip slots? Most of the .22 actions have an overhang, replacing the clip slots, that was designed to "trip" the bolt lock on the earlier .22 rifles. The picture is not of good quality, but I think that I see the "overhang" which would make it a .22 action.
4. The rifle is D&T which may indicate a .22 action, but many M1903 type actions were D&T'd by gunsmiths.
5. If it is a M1903 with the Numrich conversion, how is the magazine handled? The Numrich conversion furnished a 03A3 modified trigger guard for a non-Springfield magazine.
It does have an M2 bolt as far as I can tell.
Maybe cplnorton has "nailed it".
Here is a picture that a shooter took in the 1940's of a conversion he made to enable him to practice during the off season with his M2 to simulate his M1903:
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Cosine1/NMM1922M1_zps0314fb1d.jpg
The M1 .22 is on top and the M1903 NM is at the bottom. It appeared with an article in the American Rifleman Magazine.
Just a few observations.

[1903nm]

I looked over with a magnifying glass and see no repairs. The front action screw is so tight that I will have to carry it to a gunsmith to loosen so I can see if any repairs were made inside. I did notice the rear cross bolt through the stock area may have a fine little crack or split that happened when drilling a screw hole you can barely see or even feel with a finger nail but not something over a sixteenth of an inch or two. The curly walnut wood at the rear could be a reason for 22 use as you can't see any grains for several inches. Maybe another clue is the sideways "U" stamped in the cutoff (nothing else) or the five pointed star stamped below the rear swivel. After I see my gunsmith I should have an update.

[1903nm]

A couple more notes after further review of this rifle. The bolt is electro penciled with the serial number 19061B and the reciever is stamped with a serial number about 1,000 higher. The barrel date is 11 30 under the flaming bomb. A careful look at the non clip slotted receiver at the two drilled and tapped screw holes almost shows a rectangular area that is smoother in finish where it almost would appear something was once attached there. No scratches, just smoother with with almost visible lines around the rectangle. Lastly, when I first got it, it would not feed from the clip which was the earlier M1 clip. Luckily I found one stamped with M2 and that fed fine. And if you are wondering, I paid $400.00 for it six years ago.

[Cosine26]

1903nm
I may be incorrect, but I believe that the M1 clip is rarer than the m2 and you can probably sell it for the price you paid for the M2 magazine'

[Herschel]

The rifle in question would have been built as a 1922M1. The barrel date suggests it is original to the receiver. The B suffix was added to the serial number when the armory or arsenal upgraded the rifle by replacing the bolt, magazine and sometimes the stock with the M2 type. I agree with Cosine26 about the magazine value. The 1922M1 magazine is scarcer but there is less demand for them so they sell for about the same price.

[Cosine26]

Hi 1903nm
I think that you will find that that abominable M1905 rear sight is not very good for small bore shooting. I would suggest that you try to obtain either a post WWII Lyman 48 C or S or a Lyman 57 SME. The rifle is drilled and tapped for a Lyman and the later versions do not require that you cut into the stock to mount or use the sight. The 57 SME may still be available from Lyman if not look on eBay.
FWIW

[1903nm]

Another little update after visiting my gunsmith. He was easily successful in breaking free the screw that was tight for me. Then he bore scoped it out of curiosity and found noticeable wear near the breech but told me the second half near the muzzle looked good. He is a good old gunsmith who seems to be mainly working on benchrest rifles. He also made the comment that the stock looked presidential.
After I got home I took it apart, finding no stock repairs, but did quickly see that the lower band spring was installed too high requiring it to be milled down even with the wood. That is the only thing I would highly suspect would be why this beautiful wood would be put on a 22.35091

[Herschel]

The rifles that I study and Collect are the Springfield 1922 series and the 1903 NRA Sporters. I seldom see pretty wood on them because the straight grain is more stable. They were made to be used and accuracy was important. The USMC .22 Springfield in the 1903 S stocks must be the variation least studied and for which there is the least information published. The letter that Cplnorton mentioned is the only thing I am aware of that lends credibility to their existence.

[JimF]

. . . . . . The USMC .22 Springfield in the 1903 S stocks must be the variation least studied and for which there is the least information published. The letter that Cplnorton mentioned is the only thing I am aware of that lends credibility to their existence.

Herschel . . . .

Do you think the 300 USMC conversion stocks would have the angled cut in the forward portion of the magazine well (to accommodate the .22 cal. magazine)?

It seems to me they would! --Jim

[Herschel]

They would have to have the cut if they were used as a repeater. It would be a simple matter to modify the 1903 triggerguard and stock if the magazine was to be used.