View Full Version : 1903 Stock Mil Spec Finish Receipe
Does anyone know how and what formula/stain/etc. used in original
Springfield 1903 stocks? Were all stock finishes the same, i.e. service
issue stocks vs national match stock finishes, etc.
thanks
Loy:hello:
Does anyone know how and what formula/stain/etc. used in original
Springfield 1903 stocks? Were all stock finishes the same, i.e. service
issue stocks vs national match stock finishes, etc.
thanks
Loy:hello:
I googled your question and didn't find anything that would indicate what the original stock finishing specs were. The same question was asked on another forum several years ago. Try googling "Original finish on a 1903 stock - CMP."
I remember seeing an old factory video of dozens of m1917 stocks being dipped into large tanks of stain but I can't find it again so I don't know if they said what color stain was being used. The stocks were made of walnut wood so a dark walnut stain is a possibility.
Merc
psteinmayer
04-06-2016, 04:02
Linseed oil!
The stocks were dipped in hot linseed oil and allowed to dry. Field maintenance of the stock was linseed oil rubbed into the stock by hand. All stocks had the same finish. Tung oil dip was used in the later stocks on the M1 and M14 with field maintenance with linseed oil.
A friend (deceased) who generally knew what he was talking about told me that logwood (a wood die made from a tropical wood) was used to stain the stocks on the 1917 rifle. I have his father's 1917, purchased in 1935 from the DCM, and it appears to have a logwood colored stock, judging from the areas where there was no oil applied. How do I know what logwood looks like?...remember the old Gilbert chemistry sets?...they had logwood in them.
How do I know what logwood looks like?...remember the old Gilbert chemistry sets?...they had logwood in them.
Logwood stain was used before oil application. It has a deep red tint to it.
What a memory jog !! Yes I remember them. You had to get another complete kit cause you couldn't get individual chemicals for replacement. And yes, they did have logwood in them. That is what I meant by memory jog, something that was totally forgotten. I never knew what it was used for back then.
A friend (deceased) who generally knew what he was talking about told me that logwood (a wood die made from a tropical wood) was used to stain the stocks on the 1917 rifle. I have his father's 1917, purchased in 1935 from the DCM, and it appears to have a logwood colored stock, judging from the areas where there was no oil applied. How do I know what logwood looks like?...remember the old Gilbert chemistry sets?...they had logwood in them.
After more reading on the subject - Logwood is a red stain that was used on the early M1903s. The really dark color seen on most unmolested early M1903 stocks is most likely the linseed oil which will darken as it ages.
Merc
Does anyone know if they used raw or boiled linseed oil?
I may be right. I may be wrong. But from what I've read, the stocks were stained w/ Logwood. Tung Oil was what they were dipped in. Boiled Linseed Oil was only used when Tung Oil became unobtainable during WWII. The oxidation common to BLO accounts for the very dark color of many surplus military stocks.
IditarodJoe
04-06-2016, 08:47
I've also read that logwood stain was used on the stocks of the Krags that immediately preceded the early 1903s. Wouldn't surprise me if it carried forward for a bit. It's frustrating that details on wood (and metal) finishing for 19th and early 20th century government firearms is such an extremely weak area in our collective knowledge base.
Logwood shavings and extracts are still available but, without detailed original instructions, trying to duplicate an original finish would take a lot of experimentation and ultimately end up being no more than a guess. In my personal notes, I've cited a comment once made by Bruce Canfield that says "Birchwood Casey Walnut" stain yields a close approximation of the original logwood finish.
In The Springfield 1903 Rifles (1985) on page 541, Brophy quotes from Ordnance Form No. 528 dated 1916 which includes the following. "After finishing the stock and hand guard are dipped in raw linseed oil and allowed to remain in the bath about 5 minutes, after which they are removed and placed in a vertical position until dry." I have found no earlier authoritative reference, but if anyone else has I'd like to hear about it.
(Not that form 528 says nothing about "hot" linseed oil.)
3507635076
I found this on the Internet on how to stain walnut rifle stocks with logwood. Interesting for those of you who want to give it a try. Let's us know how it came out.
Does anyone know how and what formula/stain/etc. used in original
Springfield 1903 stocks? Were all stock finishes the same, i.e. service
issue stocks vs national match stock finishes, etc.
thanks
Loy:hello:
Couldn't remember the name of the stuff, so I had to go into the basement work shop and dig around till I FOUND IT... CHESTNUT RIDGE SUPPLY THE NAME OF THE COMPANY..... YOU WANT A BOTTLE OF DARK WALNUT MILITARY STOCK STAIN... WITH A HINT OF RED.. I usually tone it down by adding some light walnut stain. Look it up, give it a try, works good for me if you want something to have an old original look
According to Brophy it was boiled linseed oil and it was used long before WWII, I'd have to look but I thought during WWI. The logwood stain was used on the early 1903s and was the origin of the beautiful red coloration. Several folks on this and other forums have tried to duplicate it but those ingredients are no longer available. I believe I have succeeded by alternating passes with (all minwax BTW) Red Sodona and Dark Wallnut stains. Then finish over with Boiled linseed oil.
I will post pics of my A1 Sniper when I get it back together again (don't ask... still in mourning) the color on it is beautiful, still subtle. Word of advice, if you want the early 03 color leave the Red Sodona on as long a recommended, I lost my nerve and wiped it off too early (no regrets though 03A1s aren't supposed to be early 03 red). When you open the can you'll see why its spooky to apply (fire engine red) but fear not.
Thanks to all the replies. I bought a new CMP 1903 C Stock and am going to try my hand at the dark dark walnut w/ a nice tint of red look.:icon_salut:
IditarodJoe
04-07-2016, 07:26
For what it's worth, I tried playing with this about ten years ago and still have the bottles on the shelf. The CMP recommends applying different combinations of R. Gale Lock Dark Walnut stain and Chestnut Ridge Dark Walnut (with a hint of red) to get an authentic looking color. (Note: In my opinion that "hint of red" is a whole LOT more than just a "hint".) CMP's informative discussion can be found here: http://thecmp.org/training-tech/armorers-corner/wood-cleaning-article/#64
Also, bear in mind that both the Chestnut Ridge product and the R. Gale Lock product are alcohol based stains. Unlike oil-based stains which pretty much seal the pigmenting compounds onto the surface of the wood, alcohol- and water-based stains sink in deep and dye the wood cells themselves. The end result is that the wood grain can be much more apparent. Not necessarily a bad thing . . . as long as this is the effect you have in mind. HTH
IditarodJoe
04-07-2016, 07:50
According to Brophy it was boiled linseed oil and it was used long before WWII, I'd have to look but I thought during WWI. The logwood stain was used on the early 1903s and was the origin of the beautiful red coloration. Several folks on this and other forums have tried to duplicate it but those ingredients are no longer available.
Randy, please do look it up. As noted in post #10 of this thread, Ordnance Form No. 528 dated July 1, 1916 specified the use of RAW linseed oil. This requirement was apparently left unchanged in U.S. Army Ordnance Department Specifications No. 52.1.1 dated February 9, 1923. I would be very interested in any definitive documentation that you might be aware of citing a change from raw to boiled linseed oil.
Logwood, in the form of chips, powder, and extract, is still readily available. It's unlikely that any of the ingredients used by the government could not be easily obtained today. Sadly, what is missing is the formulation for the armory stain and the specific process by which it was applied.
I posted the instructions you guys don't read. Aqua fortis is added to bring out the grain affect look it up on the Internet the camwood is for a brighter red color. Neither is needed for the logwood stain. Both are still available to purchase. By the way this formula was written about 1900 or earlier
I do not believe the military used any 'stain', why would they bother? Were they trying to make "pretty" rifles? Stain does nothing to protect the wood. Linseed oil will obtain that reddish, dark color with age. And you can see many color variations in stocks. European military rifles will have the same reddish color, I have many examples of these.
I do not believe the military used any 'stain'
You have an incorrect belief.
I think dark logwood staining would have accomplished several things that the military desired. It would have penetrated the wood fibers and acted as a preservative and water repellant and the dark pigment would have given the wood a uniform dark color to help prevent being conspicuous on the battlefield. Linseed oil would have enhanced the finish but also acted as another layer of preservative and water repellant.
Merc
here is the look I'm goin for
35095
here is the look I'm goin for
35095
Work of art. Do you think they started out making a good looking rifle that shoots well or vice versa?
Merc
I have never seen any reference in any official document that mentions stain for military stocks. Walnut is already a dark wood and the oil bath makes it darker. why bother staining? Birch stocks show no evidence of stain and the european walnut used on some Krags show no evidence of stain. The CMP site says the red color comes from years of oxidizing linseed oil mixed with sweat, gun oil, and dirt. I can't find logwood mentioned in any of my older gunsmithing manuals (McFarland, Vickery, Howe, Dunlap). The red stain in common use for civilian stocks was alkanet root rather than logwood. If there is any documentation of stains used for Springfield Armory stocks I would love to see it.
Logwood stain is still very much commercially available in the form of Hematoxylin used as a stain for microscope slides along with eosin. The stain color is purple to purple red to almost black.
Johnny P
04-08-2016, 07:04
Since we don't have access to a vat of hot linseed oil, the next best thing I have found is boiled linseed oil and turpentine mixed 50/50. Much easier to spread out, dries quickly, and builds up slow enough that you can easily control the final appearance. Smells like turpentine until it dries, the left with only the linseed oil smell.
Just put a finger tip of the mix on the wood, smooth out until it will spread no farther, then repeat.
IditarodJoe
04-08-2016, 07:53
Hmmm . . . alright, now I'm curious. Fact or popular myth? Is anyone aware of any solid reference that supports the idea that stain was ever in the production of ANY US armory rifle stock? While we're at it, I'd also be interested in any reliable documentation showing that the government ever used anything other than room temperature raw linseed oil to treat newly manufactured rifle stocks - at least prior to WWII. Thinking on it, I have to confess that I don't recall ever seeing either one.
I do not believe the military used any 'stain', why would they bother? Were they trying to make "pretty" rifles? Stain does nothing to protect the wood. Linseed oil will obtain that reddish, dark color with age. And you can see many color variations in stocks. European military rifles will have the same reddish color, I have many examples of these.
Any GI replacement stock I've ever got had been stained, when you work them down you'll see, walnut's not as dark as you think. As far as them using stain p57 Brophy "The 1928 SA fiscal year report stated that the use of Logwood stain was being eliminated to reduce the cost of finishing and refinishing."
As far as linseed oil they did used raw linseed oil early on, but I'm certain I read a report that they were using BLO around WWI, I'm still looking.
Did find the Rock Island published, Ordnance Base Shop Manual calls for cleaned and worked stocks to be dipped in 50/50 Linseed oil and turpentine.
IditarodJoe
04-09-2016, 05:42
Thank you Randy! I didn't recall reading that. That would appear to be concrete evidence for the use of logwood stain as well as a firm date for its discontinuance. I'll be keeping an eye out for other references and will post any I find here.
You have an incorrect belief.
Well prove it, lets see some documentation!
So far on this thread I have seen nothing but speculation and 'I think'. Only one official document has been quoted and it does not mention stain! And I do not mean some book someone wrote unless it quotes an official document. Books on guns are notorious for error! Who the hell are you to say I am any more in error then anyone else?? So keep your stupid thoughts to your self!
I don't know where the confusion is coming from? Ordnance Form number 528 dated 1 July 1916 specifically states that stocks are to be dipped in a "linseed oil bath for 5 minutes", then removed, placed vertical and dried. Use of linseed oil and logwood stain "are" documented, I thought most folks knew this. As earlier stated the Springfield Armory 1928 fiscal year report specifically addresses Logwood stain. The Rock Island Shop manual in print at the stock work steps says 1/2 linseed oil and 1/2 turpentine. How many more pieces of documentation is needed?
The only part where I'm either confused or mistaken is where I read they used "boiled" linseed oil at one point, I'll find it yet. Anyhow, what I've found is that even most Dark Wallnut stains do not stain it as dark as most of the original GI stocks, going over that with BLO actually lightens it up a bit more. Here is a WWII American Bowling and Billiard scant stock (I bought several in the original boxes many years ago). I worked it down to pre-war Springfield scant dimensions and cut an A4 bolt relief in it.
I used Minwax, Dark Wallnut stain, several times (couldn't get it dark enough for my taste) and finished it with BLO. I purposefully left the stain in abundance in the cuts to give the original looking color to the areas. As you can see, it's not really that dark, the rough areas in the action inletting are about what color I would like.
http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af117/rananderson/Bolt%20Relief_zpspwtiop0t.jpg (http://s999.photobucket.com/user/rananderson/media/Bolt%20Relief_zpspwtiop0t.jpg.html)
Here is the finished product out in the sunlight....sort of, kinda overcast.
http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af117/rananderson/A4gery2_zpsfctozvet.png (http://s999.photobucket.com/user/rananderson/media/A4gery2_zpsfctozvet.png.html)
IditarodJoe
04-09-2016, 04:56
You did a nice job on that rifle, Randy. The stock looks great.
More tidbits: Clark Campbell, in "The '03 Springfield Rifles' Era", makes several passing references to "boiled" linseed oil but never provides any support so I question his accuracy on this point. Bruce Canfield, in his book "An Illustrated Guide to the '03 Springfield Service Rifle", has a section on the post WW1 overhaul of M1903 Rifles (pp. 100-102). In it he quotes from an article found in a 1928 issue of Army Ordnance magazine describing the overhaul process. The article includes the following" "The stocks and handguards which have been accepted after the necessary machining operations have been performed are scraped, sanded and immersed in raw linseed oil and allowed to remain in the oil about five minutes after which they are removed and allowed to dry."
Form 528 does not mention stain. Randy A says stain is documented by does not say where nor does he quote. "RI shop manual" quote does not mention stain. "1928 SA report" mentions log wood stain but no quote or detail is given, how? what does it say?
The only difference between linseed oil and BLO is chemicals are added to quicken drying, so maybe a reference to 'linseed oil' really means BLO, just a lazy writer or he figured everyone knew what was meant? It has not really been "boiled" since the middle ages.
By the way, linseed oil is eaten in many cultures, especially with potatoes.
Min-Wax Red Mahogany oil stain is the best to duplicated that reddish color of a oil finished stock. At least two coats followed with BLO. Try it--you will like it!
IditarodJoe
04-10-2016, 12:40
dave - You're certainly entitled to your opinion. The late Colonel William Brophy is generally considered to be one of the foremost researchers on the subject of the 1903 rifles (perhaps along with the late General Julian Hatcher and the still very much living Bruce Canfield). If Col. Brophy writes that the government's "1928 SA fiscal year report states that the use of logwood stain was being eliminated to reduce the cost of finishing and refinishing", that's good enough for me. I don't feel compelled to locate an original copy of that report to verify that the good colonel was correct. As to the exact formulation and staining process, that sadly remains a mystery. I don't imagine any of us will ever know for certain exactly what the finish on these stocks looked like when they were originally produced. The government was certainly aware of the different types of linseed oil, so when Ordnance Form 528 specified raw linseed oil, I trust that was what they meant.
Interesting. Hematoxylin (logwood) dissolves in alcohol and water. I don't think it will dissolve in an oil so it would have to be applied before dipping in linseed oil. Also the stain is not colorfast when exposed to light so any color it imparted would fade with time. It has been used as a wood stain but far more commonly was used to dye wool and cotton fibers with a variety of colors possible from red to purple to blue to black and was one of the few natural dyes that would give a satisfactory black. It may have been used to stain the stock wood but it may also have been in the budget to dye fabric.
Richard H Brown Jr
04-10-2016, 09:38
The Wonderful red color of all U.S. Military wood stocks, is a result of post build cleaning after firing, and weekly cleanings, using GI Bore Cleaner, and Lubricants, and BLO or Tung Oil rubbed into the stock. For years and years.
The Wonderful red color of all U.S. Military wood stocks, is a result of post build cleaning after firing, and weekly cleanings, using GI Bore Cleaner, and Lubricants, and BLO or Tung Oil rubbed into the stock. For years and years.
Hogwash! That's a bold statement, to say the least, using the term "all".
I have a "CN 1908" stamped RIA stock, high wood, no bolt, modified from .30-'03, that has obviously never been sanded or refinished. It has a beautiful red tint.
Mike
Form 528 does not mention stain. Randy A says stain is documented by does not say where nor does he quote. "RI shop manual" quote does not mention stain. "1928 SA report" mentions log wood stain but no quote or detail is given, how? what does it say?
The only difference between linseed oil and BLO is chemicals are added to quicken drying, so maybe a reference to 'linseed oil' really means BLO, just a lazy writer or he figured everyone knew what was meant? It has not really been "boiled" since the middle ages.
By the way, linseed oil is eaten in many cultures, especially with potatoes.
Min-Wax Red Mahogany oil stain is the best to duplicated that reddish color of a oil finished stock. At least two coats followed with BLO. Try it--you will like it!
No it doesn't, yes I did, no it doesn't and it says what I wrote. Please read the post again, you've got most of it mixed up. By the way the 528 does specifies Raw Linseed oil, I thought you might have read it since you were asking for proof. As far as logwood stain, lets see... stocks were a pretty red color until around 1928 when Springfield says in an official report that they quit using logwood stain and poof... stocks aren't a pretty red color any more????
Richard H Brown Jr
04-11-2016, 10:22
By "Post build cleaning" I meant the standard weekly garrison cleaning of the weapon, bore solvent, lube oil and grease per the tm. And cleaning on the day of firing and the next two days according to *standard* gi practice on weapons. And every so often the rubbing in of some BLO to keep the stock from drying out too much.
RHB
Parashooter
04-12-2016, 10:39
By "Post build cleaning" I meant the standard weekly garrison cleaning of the weapon, bore solvent, lube oil and grease per the tm. And cleaning on the day of firing and the next two days according to *standard* gi practice on weapons. And every so often the rubbing in of some BLO to keep the stock from drying out too much.
RHB
Don't let the Platoon Sergeant catch you with that "BLO" -
http://i54.tinypic.com/2ahs4s7.jpg
Darreld Walton
04-13-2016, 05:43
LAH, for several years, I've been staining prior to applying finish, using Feibing's "medium brown" leather dye. Get it at Tandy's leather/hobby shops. If you get it on yer fingers, it'll be there for a few days, and don't apply it on the Mrs.' table top. I apply it, let it sit overnight, then knock it down with 4-O steel wool, and re-apply till I get the color I want. It WILL darken up a scoche after you apply finish, so don't get carried away. I don't think I've ever given more than two coats to any walnut. I have tried several finishes that have integral stain, and have yet to get (at least in MY eyes) an acceptable, even color. The Feibings penetrates really well, and to get a "light" spot, I have to really, REALLY scrub it with the steel wool.
If I choose to use a "BLO" finish, I use the old guide that says "apply once a day for a week, once a week for a month, once a month for a year, and once a year for the rest of your life".
If I really want to just use the rifle, I apply Watco Danish Oil after staining, and after it's cured, I sometimes apply a couple coats of Johnson's Floor Wax. The old stuff that my Mom used to put on her hardwood floors, and made a beautiful finish for 'skating' across in my socks.........
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/RocketDr/Boyd%20C%20Stock%20Project/DSCF0021.jpg C stock project, this color is of the unfinished wood as received from Boyd's.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/RocketDr/Boyd%20C%20Stock%20Project/nsbolt2.jpg This is the same Boyd's C type replacement stock, with the Feibing's stain/BLO finish applied.
I wonder sometimes if in the vernacular of old Ordnance publications the term "raw linseed oil" is used to mean "unmixed with any other compounds linseed oil"? If you have ever messed with raw linseed oil you know that the stuff takes forever to dry, and sometimes it doesn't dry at all. I simply can't imagine the Armory (or anyone else) having used the raw stuff when there was a need to get on with the job. Rather I would think it was what we call today boiled linseed oil (not really boiled but rather with driers added to facilitate drying).
Phil McGrath
04-14-2016, 10:27
You guys can argue all you want, what's what.... By far the prettiest stock I've ever see was done by forum member Vulch he used Log Wood stain and then BLO. What's the saying BLO once a day for a week, then once a week for a month, once a month for a year and finally once a year for as long as you own it. All he did after each BLO rub down was let it sit in the sun and finish dry/cure. I do believe he lives in Australia where there is a overabundance of sun, regardless for a Boyds stock you would never have guessed it wasn't original that someone had hidden away.
Phil I remember that. It was a great looking stock. He spent some time on it sanding and fitting if I remember correctly. But the results as you say looked like a nos stock. I'm not sure but wasn't he also rubbing in Tom's mix later also.
Phil McGrath
04-15-2016, 04:23
Phil I remember that. It was a great looking stock. He spent some time on it sanding and fitting if I remember correctly. But the results as you say looked like a nos stock. I'm not sure but wasn't he also rubbing in Tom's mix later also.
Its been so long ago, my understanding was that he did what he did too the stock and that took about a years worth of rub downs before he was 100% happy with its outcome. When all was said done the crowning touch too finish it off COULD have been a coat of Gunny paste or Tom's mix, but I don't remember. It's been so long ago and what pictures he posted of his stock have dropped off the board, I even checked over at mil-surp's forum and they didn't pop up for me over there either because I was thinking of picking up a Minnelli "C" stock and doing the same treatment he did.
IditarodJoe
04-15-2016, 05:08
If Vulch had a successful formula and process for making actual logwood stain, I sure wish that information was still available. :icon_scratch:
Joe I gave it to you. Read the formula leave out the acid and camwood.
Besides that you can buy it now online without making it
Phil. I remember being toms because I have been using toms and was very happy with it. I need a C stock also. Looking for info on a good new one since originals are way too much for my pocket anyway. How is the Minelli?
Phil McGrath
04-16-2016, 10:43
Phil. I remember being toms because I have been using toms and was very happy with it. I need a C stock also. Looking for info on a good new one since originals are way too much for my pocket anyway. How is the Minelli?
I don't remember if it was Tom's or Gunny, doesn't matter. On too the Minelli, I have only seen a few, off the top of my head maybe 7 total, 3 of those were on rifles being used at the range. There CNC inletted and pre-war shaped there owners stated much less fuss fitting if any. All have been very nice clean straight grain wood with a darker stain, worlds better than anything that has come out of Boyds. Would I spend the money for one, YES. However when they have turned up and I had money too spend I had other projects that needed my attention first, looking back I should have put one of my other projects on hold for a little longer and snapped one up.
PhillipM
04-16-2016, 06:05
I recall Marine A5 Sniper made some log wood stain.
I cheat and use the Chestnut ridge product and then use linseed oil from the artist paint store, they use it to thin paint and it works much better than the thick, waxy stuff from the hardware store and it doesn't need to be cut with turpentine. I can't determine if it's boiled or raw. If someone wants raw, it is under another name at the grocery store, flax seed oil.
I mixed my Weber linseed oil and the chestnut ridge stain for my maintenance.
Linseed Oil — Weber Linseed Oil is widely used in diluting oil or alkyd colors. It is also used in preparing painting mediums, and is even good for cleaning brushes. This fine quality, purified and refined linseed oil is pressed from flaxseed. It contains no free mineral acids.
35270
Chuck in Denver likes the Italian stocks for fitment and despises the CMP stocks for the same. I have zero confidence in the CMP stocks because the rear tang hole is drilled crooked on mine. I don't think much of the cheesy brass bushing either. The regular bushing willm slip fit inside the brass, but since the hole is on the wrong angle, the screw won't fit. Gluing in a dowel is simple, but how to drill it at the correct angle without constructing an elaborate jig escapes me.
PhillipM
04-16-2016, 06:32
I found Marine A5 Sniper's comments on another forum, perhaps this is where we get the misconception linseed oil was in heated vats?
Jim Tarleton 09:29 PM 05-26-2010
The very early rifles were dyed with logwood stain, giving the stock the reddish hue. Logwood is readily available but it is tricky to make the stain, as well as applying it. Logwood stain is water based, and the RLO finish was oil based. I have not found any discussion or documentation of how the logwood stain was applied, except for one old single line statement that the stocks were dipped in boiling logwood, which makes sense actually, ie the logwood must be boiled to make the stain. The stocks would have had to dry and be feathered before the final RLO application.
Making logwood stain is complicated and arduous. I have spent many hours making many batches trying to get the "perfect" combination. I don't know that I have succeeded yet. Bear in mind that logwood stain is colorfast (the wife's kitchen may suffer).
Many use alternate stains to achieve the same effect.
It was usually mixed with alcohol not oil or water
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