45-70 ammo headstamps

[Dick Craig]

I acquired some old 45-70 ammo in trade 20 plus years ago and am looking for info on approx dates of mfr. I have four unopened boxes of UMC 45-500 plus a fifth box with no top, all marked U. M. C. 45 govt. a few rounds marked U. M. C., 45-70 with an S and H centered between the other markings. Another round is marked W. R. A. Co, 45-70. It is slightly shorter than the others due to bullet size. I would appreciate any info you might share.

[JimF]

The "S" and "H" stamp indicates "solid head" cases (as opposed to the older, "balloon head" cases). --Jim

[Dick Craig]

Many thanks Jim.

[Lee T.]

Dick, your UMC ctg's were likely mfg turn of the century between 1900-1910(ish). Same for the contract WRA, but possibly a bit later.
Hope this helps, lee

[Dick Hosmer]

Don't open any such unsealed boxes you may have! They are worth more to collectors than 20x one round.

[Dick Craig]

Thanks Gentlemen, I saw on Gunbroker that one round of SH marked has bids of $36, however I also saw a full box that got no bids. I do enjoy trying to find info and history of firearms and ammo. It's amazing to find stuff older than me.

[Dick Hosmer]

In all truth, I was speaking more from the standpoint of Frankford Arsenal boxes (one of my interests) from the 1860s through 1890s - those you really do not want to open. The situation may be a bit different on commercial boxes (even those from government contracts) around the turn of the century. Was that $36 ask or bid? If the latter, I'm sitting on a fortune! I need to thin my stash, and have a lot of loose (well, stuffed into web belts and McKeevers) such UMC and USC SH ammo. Of course one always must be careful to keep brass away from direct contact with leather!!!!!

[Dick Craig]

That was a bid but there were others that had not had any bids. I thought that the 150 plus rounds I have would sure buy me a nice gun or pay for a couple of hunts. Nice fantasy at ant rate

[Tkacook]

Would love to see pictures of the rounds if either of you can post them. Always interested in seeing original rounds.

[Lee T.]

Here's some photos you might find interesting. These are in line with the thread. The SH box is the one with the 500 gr. bullet, the carbine UMC 45 Govt. (45-55-405) is the "reloading" box. You could also visit Dick Hosmer's excellent "Picture Trail" web site for lots of old cartridge/boxes pictures. I'll let him give you the link. lee

35414354153541635417

[Dick Craig]

3541835419354203542135422 The ammo box is wrapped in plastic wrap as a protection

[Lee T.]

I believe your SH rounds are a bit later than mine, evidenced by the cannelure (sp) ring and colorful box. But the date range is about the same....turn of the century. I always found it odd that FA ammunition always included a date in the hs, but contract ammo usually didn't.
Arms technology was changing at an increasing rate, and TD firearms and ammunition, even though still in NG armories, were shortly to be surplussed to vendors like Bannerman. Which I believe is where a lot, if not most, of today's collectibles came from. Even in post-depression years, it was hard to ignore $5 rifles and ammo for a penny a round. lee

[Dick Craig]

Yeah penny a round vs today's costs. I am setting up to reload 45-70 for my Marlin Guide Gun and I've had primers and powder for a long time as well as brass but 100 bullets cost about $.70 each (2 different bullets). Without the components I already had I would easily exceed $1.00 each to reload. Oh well just another weakness I've acquired over the years.

[Dick Hosmer]

Here's some photos you might find interesting. These are in line with the thread. The SH box is the one with the 500 gr. bullet, the carbine UMC 45 Govt. (45-55-405) is the "reloading" box. You could also visit Dick Hosmer's excellent "Picture Trail" web site for lots of old cartridge/boxes pictures. I'll let him give you the link. lee

Thanks - that would be www.picturetrail.com/sa4570af

[Tkacook]

Thanks for posting the link. I enjoyed the tour of your cartridges and rifles very much!

[IditarodJoe]

Mr. Hosmer - any new information about the timeline for your next book?

[Dick Hosmer]

Nothing concrete. The ms is finished, aside from occasionally updating the serial number lists and adding tidbits here and there as I become aware of them. Photography is 98% done and those "missing" COULD just be omitted, but I'm striving to do the best job possible in the small format. This time I will be publishing it myself - a long story not yet able to be completely told. This is providing some new challenges, but just discovered that a friend has done three books using exactly the same equipment and programs that I have, so that has given me new enthusiasm. Main problem is time - we have a small business which we are trying to sell/close, my wife (73) is not in good health at all, and we cannot afford much paid help, etc. It WILL happen - I'd like to say this year, but cannot promise anything. I'll be 80 late next year - hopefully by then I'll be re-retired and churning out drivel full-time.

Update -major computer crash this AM - tech will look at it Monday. Macs aren't supposed to do that. Everything (and I mean everything ) is potentially FUBAR until that situation is resolved. Fortunately, there is a 98% copy of the ms stored elsewhere. If that were not the case, there might not BE another book. Keep your fingers crossed for me!!!

[IditarodJoe]

ACK!! That "drivel" as your call it is the refined knowledge resulting from many years of scholarly study! Glad to hear you have a backup copy, but I hope your computer guy will be able to save everything and get you back up and running tomorrow. Keep us posted . . . I'm holding a spot on my bookshelf for that book.

[Dick Hosmer]

Computer seems to be back up. Macs are pretty resilient. Slogging onwards!

[IditarodJoe]

Great news, Dick! Be sure to keep your backup copies current. Looking forward to future updates. :icon_salut: