Lubricated MG Ammo

[Cosine26]

There is only one machine gun used extensively by US forces that ever required greased ammunition that I can remember. It is probably not well known to most of the readers of this page. It has been 70 years since I have seen one and 72 since I fired one.
FWIW

[slamfire]

There is only one machine gun used extensively by US forces that ever required greased ammunition that I can remember. It is probably not well known to most of the readers of this page. It has been 70 years since I have seen one and 72 since I fired one.
FWIW


You know, some would not believe you. I am glad you are still around and remember the weapon and its characteristics. One of the guns on this WW2 PT boat used greased ammunition, but hardly any fans of General Hatcher's books, fans of the Garand, M1903, know which one. General Hatcher would have known but I can't find that in any of his books.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/Case%20Lubrication/ElcoPTBoatcropped_zps6eaf1786.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/SlamFire/media/Reloading/Case%20Lubrication/ElcoPTBoatcropped_zps6eaf1786.jpg.html)

This gun was one of the fastest firing single barrel machine guns ever fielded, and that was the primary reason the US Army wanted it. Before WW2 the US Army realized that the rate of fire for standard 30 cal Browning and 50 caliber Browning was marginal for air to air combat and insufficient for ground to air Anti Aircraft. The requirement for the era was a desired 1000 rounds a minute, though this machine gun never met that rate, it was still the fastest of its type in the mid to late 1930's.

General Hatcher’s Army Ordnance Corp made over 150,000 of these things and they were fitted in virtually everything the Army had. All cannon firing aircraft used it, so did any ground vehicle with AA capability. The Navy used this machine gun cannon all the way to Vietnam, and yet, given the decades of use, just whom reading this thread knows the weapons system? It that not amazing that all these small arms experts on this forum, and yet, who of them has heard of this?


Ordnance Pamphlet 911 covers this weapon and on page 105 are the explicit instructions to grease the ammunition.

http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/gun20mm/part4.htm#pg105

This weapon system was also used by the British. I know Spitfires, Hurricanes were outfitted with this weapon. The ammunition between the US and the UK was the same, but due to poor System Engineering, the chambers were not. The American chamber was 1/16” longer than the British. Normally this would cause case separations, but in this weapon, grease kept the case from separating and thus, ammunition made to British specs, worked in the US made guns. This is from Chinn’s

The Machine Gun Part V Chapter 14, page 578


An unfortunate discovery was that chamber errors in the gun could be corrected for the moment by covering the ammunition case with a heavy lubricant. If the chamber was oversize, it served as a fluid fit to make up the deficiency and, if unsafe head space existed that would result in case rupture if ammunition was fired dry, then the lubricant allowed the cartridge case to slip back at the start of pressure build up, to take up the slack between the breech lock and the breech lock key. Had this method of "quick fix" not been possible, the Navy would have long ago recognized the seriousness of the situation. In fact, this inexcusable method of correction was in use so long that it was becoming accepted as a satisfactory solution of a necessary nuisance.

[fguffey]

You know, some would not believe you. I am glad you are still around and remember the weapon and its characteristics. One of the guns on this WW2 PT boat used greased ammunition, but hardly any fans of General Hatcher's books, fans of the Garand, M1903, know which one. General Hatcher would have known but I can't find that in any of his books.



An unfortunate discovery was that chamber errors in the gun could be corrected for the moment by covering the ammunition case with a heavy lubricant. If the chamber was oversize, it served as a fluid fit to make up the deficiency and, if unsafe head space existed that would result in case rupture if ammunition was fired dry, then the lubricant allowed the cartridge case to slip back at the start of pressure build up, to take up the slack between the breech lock and the breech lock key. Had this method of "quick fix" not been possible, the Navy would have long ago recognized the seriousness of the situation. In fact, this inexcusable method of correction was in use so long that it was becoming accepted as a satisfactory solution of a necessary nuisance.
And no consideration was given to the ability of lube to reducing friction, and there is the possibility heat was slung off with the ejected case. Then there is the possibility the gun would not work any other way. I know it is cool to shoot in short burst but all of that is out the window when you are standing on your home and it is being shot out from under you.

Again, I do not want anything between my case and the chamber but air, I do not want a lot of air and I want the air to be clean. I understand the case is embeddable and anything in the air will be embedded into the case. Air gets out of the way fast because it is compressible, grease is not compressible. Meaning if dirt grit and grime get mixed with the grease before firing the grease squirting out from between the case and chamber takes on a behavior like a slow plasma cutter.

Then there is grease in the barrel, just how fast can the grease get out of the way when the bullet exits. Again,; we know grease can not be compressed. But when your home is being shot out from under you who can take the time to count in short burst.


40MM; I was working on a deal for some ship parts from a collector on Jerseys east short. He had a couple of guns set up in his front yard. One of his neighbors complained and then there came some heavy knocks on his door. It was not like a couple of policemen and a Special Branch man. Anyhow they checked his guns and determined all that was required was ammo and a drip of the hammer to fire. I had to forget the ship parts because he had to get busy explaining how those guns made it all the way to his yard without one piece of paper.

F. Guffey.

[fguffey]

And there was an attempt on this forum to start greasing cases, it was bench resters. They were almost giggly about what they discovered. They thought they discovered fire forming; it was so simple, (all you have to do thing) lube your case and pull the trigger. I labeled their method and or technique as slide and glide case forming. I could never figure how they got to be bench resters without knowing how to form a case and then fire.

After that there was that movement; do it like a bench rester and grease your cases. Again; all I want between my case and chamber is air. I do not want a lot of air, all I want is just a little. I want my case to lock onto the chamber again if I have grease between the case and chamber with dirt, grit and grime there is more than a good chance I will be lapping the chamber with the dirt, grit and grime in the grease when the case fails to lock onto the chamber.

F. Guffey

[slamfire]

And there was an attempt on this forum to start greasing cases, it was bench resters. They were almost giggly about what they discovered. They thought they discovered fire forming; it was so simple, (all you have to do thing) lube your case and pull the trigger. I labeled their method and or technique as slide and glide case forming. I could never figure how they got to be bench resters without knowing how to form a case and then fire.


F. Guffey


Guffey, as you know, a Bench Rest National Champion recommends this practice. Making perfect cases is absolutely critical to Bench Rest Shooters, and it works. Bench rest shooters spend a lot of time and effort trying to get a few perfect cases. Lube prevents the case from adhering to the chamber, it slides to the bolt face and the shoulders fold out. This prevents sidewall stretch which will cause case head separation. It also results in a case perfectly formed to the chamber without any case stresses. Hatcherites are very ignorant of the number of lubricated cases being fired today. I regularly shoot Small Bore prone and all of my Eley Black Box, Lapua Midas plus, Center X, SK Standard Plus, SK Rifle Match, RWS Target, Wolf Match, Wolf Match Extra, RWS R50, etc, etc, etc, all the good match 22 Lr is covered with greasy substances. It is clear that rimfire rounds shoot more accurately with lube over the entire case. Eley tried a dry lube on their Edge ammunition, it did not shoot well, last case I bought was sold for 2/3 rd's the price of Black Box, and Edge seems to be disappearing from store inventory. At some point I will ask the Eley people if Edge is being discontinued. National Champions and World Champions are not so stupid as to remove the lube, as they want to win.

As you are not shooting tiny groups and certainly not a National Champion in any firearm sport, why should anyone consider your advice seriously?

[fguffey]

As you are not shooting tiny groups and certainly not a National Champion in any firearm sport, why should anyone consider your advice seriously?


When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser, Socrates

And then it is never about the ability of the rifle it is always about 'the bench rester'. There was an older gentleman from Washington that went to a contest, he did not have a rifle and he shot the ammo he was issued. If it was about the rifle he would not have had to leave the range to select another rifle from a rack. Anyhow legend has it he had the ability win over the competition at 65.

Then there was another honest and humble champion that set the world record, He had the rifle built and he purchased cases, he made no claim about case prep, he purchased the cases and loaded them, then he went to the range and set a world record.

On the Internet the next day the news was about Bench resters no longer neck sizing and or firing their cases until they will no longer strand up straight without support. It became one of those 'all you gotta things' full length size the case because that is what bench resters are doing. And now it is repeated over and over bench are gull length sizing and they have been doing it for years.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

Guffey, as you know, a Bench Rest National Champion recommends this practice. I do not believe that is worthy of repeating, I do not agree with him.

There is nothing about me that requires me to agree with him, and I agree with the member that accused you of being in mortal combat with 'the machine'.

And it would help if you understood I would not walk across the street to watch an ant eat a bail of hay, there are a number of things I can not get excited about, greasing my cases is one of them.

I am a case former, I form my cases then fire, and then the bench resters started greasing their cases and became fire formers. think about it, chamber a round, pull the trigger and become a fire former.

[fguffey]

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2011/6/15/one-for-the-record-books-camp-perry-1921/

I like these kind of stories. Then there is Chuck, he received the same training and he was issued the same weapon, Chuck was most modest and humble, he was thankful he was blessed and that was the difference. He could have spent the rest of his life with being consumed about how good he was, he could have spend the rest of his life insulting others. He didn't.

F. Guffey