Trapdoors in gunstores?

[Stephan]

Around my area(Oklahoma) it's not unusual to see a Trapdoor rifle or two on the gunstore used rack...maybe a rolling-block Remington on occasion.

Anyhow..almost invariably the old trapdoors will be rusted and still rusting...bore looking dry corroded and awful...no sign of oil or being cleaned for decades! This doesn't seem to be a phenomenon just limited to a few gunstores, but a wide-spread deal.

I could understand a consignment gun being sold 'as is'...gunstore employees not wanting to clean somebody else's musket they brought in dirty and rusty...however you would think it a simple matter to screw-on an extra section of cleaning rod(to get through 32.5" of bore) and clean the bore...maybe even wipe-down the exterior rust with an oily rag!

I know antique arms enjoy a differing set of grading where bore condition is less a concern than originality of parts and finish...but really?...Rust is bad!

So is this a common deal in other states too...and just what is the mindset of gunstore owners that let cool old antiques just rot-down on the rack??

[Dick Hosmer]

I totally agree with you, but am somewhat envious of your potential opportunities; have not seen a trapdoor in any gun store around here for a long, long time.

[Major Tom]

I concour with Stephan. Even online sales will show photos of rat a$$ed dirty firearms. With a little cleaning the value and eye appeal would increase greatly. Somebody is just too lazy to do it I guess.
The last trapdoor I saw in a gunshop was brutally "customized" by bubba having a parkerized finish on all metal. Other wise it was an early rifle done wrong!

[Stephan]

They always want $750/$850 for the rusty used rack Springfield 1873 rifles.....these just set on the rack for years and years.

I did see a rarity just a few weeks back...a Trapdoor carbine! About never see these in a store. The carbine was fairly clean and nice too...but they wanted $3500 for it(not that clean and not 'Custer era')

[psteinmayer]

I see them occasionally in Cabelas "Gun Library." Sometimes they're nice and priced right. Most times, they are hopelessly OVER priced, and look like something the cat dragged in! I looked at a Krag recently and the bore looked like it hadn't been cleaned since the Boxer Rebellion... like 50 miles of bad road!!!

The interesting thing is... sometimes, all they need is a little cleaning and a little love.

[Stephan]

I see them occasionally in Cabelas "Gun Library." Sometimes they're nice and priced right. Most times, they are hopelessly OVER priced, and look like something the cat dragged in! I looked at a Krag recently and the bore looked like it hadn't been cleaned since the Boxer Rebellion... like 50 miles of bad road!!!

The interesting thing is... sometimes, all they need is a little cleaning and a little love.

Yeh...My Trapdoor rifle was a dirty relic that I bought locally(not a gunstore)...it had been an attorney's decorator and upon his death had been badly stored(boiler room..then closet after it got rusty in the boiler room!). Cleaned-up quite decent as far as bore and mechanics go...wood is ok too. I suppose it was/is quite similar condition as the several Trapdoor rifles I've seen in the stores lately. Mine shoots great...however I paid like $250 for it and sweated bullets until I cleaned the bore and saw it was ok. I wouldn't want to pay $850 bucks for another one only to clean the bore and discover it's the sewer-pipe it looks like!!

My newly acquired Trapdoor carbine is cleaner than I'm used to seeing...however I bought it online out of New York state....but it's a project too and another story....

[dave]

I collect WW11 and early Mausers mainly, but also older 22 rifles. There is a large crowd with the military arms group that thing cleaning ruins the "originality" of the gun. I have posted that no military in the world (old China excepted perhaps) that would tolerate a rusty dirty gun so cleaning rust and crap off will not hurt value but improve it. They show original in the white butt plates which are covered in rust but will not clean them!

[Dick Hosmer]

There's cleaning and there's cleaning. I prefer to do my own. No one wants active rust, and I'll scrub the p--s out of a bore, but I've seen more than enough of what some stupid a-hole (NOT intended to mean you!!) can do with Naval Jelly or a wire wheel, or sandpaper, to the outside of a specimen. Yes, you are right - while in active service no one would tolerate a dirty gun - but - we are not talking about active service, and I have no problem with something that is 150 years old looking like it is 150 years old. As far as cleaning "improving" value, I suspect you'll catch some (more) flack on that - it all depends on how such cleaning is accomplished, and how far it goes.

[psteinmayer]

My 1873 carbine (I've posted pics here a couple years ago) has hung on my dad's mantle for around 50 years now. I took it down a couple years ago to assess and clean, only to discover that hanging over a fireplace has left it with some rust in the action and bore. I worked hard to remove most of the rust, cleaned and oiled the hell out of it, replaced the broken extractor with one from Al F., and placed it back on the mantle (where it stays until my dad passes and I get it in the will). The Bannerman rifle that sits there over it is in better shape corrosion wise... but I did the same to it too!

I plan to shoot both when I take possession of them.

[Bergerboy]

I agree with Dave, although not particularly with the crowd of collectors he references.
I often see comments from Mauser WW1 and WW2 collectors that seem to "salivate" over weapons covered in original closet lint or barn dust that may have accumulated over the years.
There are those that would much prefer to encounter and and/or acquire one of these "buried treasures" in its as-found condition, dust and rust and all. And then relish the opportunitity to do the cleaning themselves, as if they are more connected to it by revealing its original beauty for the first time in X years.


I collect WW11 and early Mausers mainly, but also older 22 rifles. There is a large crowd with the military arms group that thing cleaning ruins the "originality" of the gun. I have posted that no military in the world (old China excepted perhaps) that would tolerate a rusty dirty gun so cleaning rust and crap off will not hurt value but improve it. They show original in the white butt plates which are covered in rust but will not clean them!

[Sunray]

"...what is the mindset of gunstore owners..." Biggest thing is that it costs time and money. However, collectors do not want stuff that has been touched in any way. Even "a little cleaning" seriously decreases the value.
"...Naval Jelly or a wire wheel..." Former will remove any remaining blued finish right to bare metal. The latter can ruin a collector piece unless it's a fine brass wire wheel and used with a light touch. Still considered to be refinishing that drops the value though..

[Stephan]

Collectors don't want rusted Trapdoor rifles...neither do shooters...may as well make bar-stools from them

[Dick Hosmer]

Sorta depends on just exactly what that rusted TD is! That is where knowing what you are looking at floats to the top.

Granted, a bog-standard M1873 in the 200,000 to 300,000 range is probably the least desirable, except to shooters.

[Stephan]

Yep...I suppose exactly what the Trapdoor is would be a determining factor. But then...for the most part..the only Trapdoors I've seen are M1873/M1884 rifles(with the exception of one pretty nice carbine). No cleaning rods either(the carbine I looked at was rod-less too)....not sure just where all the cleaning rods go?...Sold separately I suppose

[Merc]

[QUOTE=psteinmayer;457286]I see them occasionally in Cabelas "Gun Library." Sometimes they're nice and priced right. Most times, they are hopelessly OVER priced, and look like something the cat dragged in! I looked at a Krag recently and the bore looked like it hadn't been cleaned since the Boxer Rebellion... like 50 miles of bad road!!!

The interesting thing is... sometimes, all they need is a little cleaning and a little love.[/QUOTE/]

Offering uncleaned antique guns for sale must reflect the seller's desire to allow the antique to remain untouched fearing cleaning will detract from the value. They aren't taking into account that a large portion of the buyers of antique military rifles are looking for clean shooters.

I saw an add online from my local Cabela's for a particular rifle that I'd been shopping around for and was surprised to see a large variety of antique military rifles in their Gun Library. Most of their prices were above average for the rougher examples and full retail plus for the nicer examples but they were willing to deal and listen to offers.

Big problem: All the rifles I saw were dirty, really dirty or downright filthy which made it difficult to judge the condition of the bore, chamber, etc. I'm not interested in buying a wall hanger.

I bought the rifle I was seeking and found it to be minty once I brought it home and thoroughly cleaned it.

Merc

[Mark Daiute]

Couple years ago I was at Cabelas. Three Cadets. One was a shortened rifle, one was a late cadet with slingswivels. Then there was this third Cadet. 1873. It happened to have a Buffington sight. Cheapest of the three. Nice solid condition, not pristine but nice, not messed with.

I gotta be honest I swapped out the Buffington sight with the 1873 sight and some slotless screws. It is a dead ringer for the cadet on Dick Hosmer's sight and only about 30 digits away IIRC from his. Even the cartouche looks like the one on Dick's sight, kinda lightly struck. Man I love that rifle and it is a good shooter. Point is, it was the cheapest Trapdoor there. The least expensive trapdoor there, with one exception.

Let's talk about that exception. It was a beautiful, near pristine 1884 with nice bluing throughout and good color on the breechblock. Great Cartouche and..... a stock cut off at the middle band. My buddy needed that stock for a psuedo carbine so that's where that went. I got a replacement stock from Al Frasca the quality of which matched the rest of the rifle and even the cartouche matched. I think that rifle cost me 350 at Cabelas. Other than that my experience with Trapdoors in Gunstores have bordered on the absurd. Beat up old rifles that Al would not even take in that were up for sale at double the price.