View Full Version : Winchester m12 trench on gun broker
BOB IN AZ
05-20-2016, 11:39
Can some of the advance SG collectors comment on the above auction on Gun Broker #557741776 (http://www.gunbroker.com/item/557741776)
thanks
BOB
Big Larry
05-20-2016, 03:21
Do you see the punch mark next to the oval proof? Gun has been reworked by Winchester. The finish has been applied after proofing. A sure sign some has worked on this gun. Big Larry
SPEEDGUNNER
05-21-2016, 05:58
The finish appears characteristic of the light parkerizing seen on the late war Model 12's. What concerns me is that the thumbprint is evident, but partially obscured. What happened there on the right side of the receiver? Reworked by Winchester is not a deal killer, otherwise it looks like a decent trench. It will be interesting to see where the bids go...
Keydet92
05-21-2016, 12:53
Hello,
I'm not a Winchester collector just trying to learn more. Is it common for the U.S. marking to be out of alignment like this example? All the others I've seen have been much more uniform.
35769
Hello,
I'm not a Winchester collector just trying to learn more. Is it common for the U.S. marking to be out of alignment like this example? All the others I've seen have been much more uniform.
35769
That is an absolutely correct factory parkerized gun. Larry, I am surprised you did not catch that but we are both getting old.
It is NOT a re-work, in spite of the punch mark.
I can not explain why the markings look off, but the gun is right as rain.
It is a $3500-$5k gun. It would be way more but it does seem to have some wear issues.
FYI those guns are always found with some blued small parts - the sling swivel in the stock, the action bar, the trigger and safety are most common.
That was because after Winchester got permission from Uncle to cheapen the finish those parts are common to all M12 shotguns and they had so many of them on hand they did not need to make any more in the new finish.
The finish appears characteristic of the light parkerizing seen on the late war Model 12's. What concerns me is that the thumbprint is evident, but partially obscured. What happened there on the right side of the receiver? Reworked by Winchester is not a deal killer, otherwise it looks like a decent trench. It will be interesting to see where the bids go...
On the original parked guns the fingerprint is evident. Re-parking removes it forever, that is one of the ways you can tell it is original.
Again, can not explain the apparent mis alignment of the markings, but it is very late and close to the end, the tools and jigs were probably getting worn out.
Keydet92
05-22-2016, 12:10
Something else didn't look right on the U.S. markings that kept bothering me. The "S" stamp used is not symmetrical it has a definite top and bottom and the one on the parkerized gun in question (on the left) is upside down. The periods also appear to have been made with a punch. Did Winchester hand stamp these markings or did they use a roll stamp?
35791
Something about the ordnance bomb also doesn't look right but it's hard to tell with the scratch on it. Compare the flame pattern between the two bombs.
Something else didn't look right on the U.S. markings that kept bothering me. The "S" stamp used is not symmetrical it has a definite top and bottom and the one on the parkerized gun in question (on the left) is upside down. The periods also appear to have been made with a punch. Did Winchester hand stamp these markings or did they use a roll stamp?
35791
Something about the ordnance bomb also doesn't look right but it's hard to tell with the scratch on it. Compare the flame pattern between the two bombs.
You are absolutely correct. However looking at the serial number and the metal finish UNDER the parkerizing there is only one thing it can be. The factory parked guns had no final finishing and polishing so you can see the machine marks and "jittering". These are the ONLY Winchester guns EVER like this. There is no mistaking it. So the gun is what it is. As I stated before, I have no explanation for the funky looking markings, however this gun can simply not be faked.
It does not even look like the correct bomb, so yes the markings are strange. But the overall manufacture and serial number of the gun indicate it is not fake. Re-parked guns are smooth, because they were polished out like commercial guns when made. This gun is "unfinished", they never polished out the machining marks.
Big Larry
05-22-2016, 04:53
It does not even look like the correct bomb, so yes the markings are strange. But the overall manufacture and serial number of the gun indicate it is not fake. Re-parked guns are smooth, because they were polished out like commercial guns when made. This gun is "unfinished", they never polished out the machining marks.
It does appear that the proofs are parked over too. I had one years ago and the proofs were very shiny. I still maintain the point of the punch mark. This gun has been back to Winchester for whatever. Big Larry
Keydet92
05-22-2016, 05:46
I do not deny that this shotgun is what it is portrayed to be. As I said Winchesters are not my line of collecting. I'm only offering observations on something that looks very different from the standard. I did some searching on ordnance bomb styles and found one that is close to the example (from an Oneida Limited bayonet) for comparison. See attached, parkerized gun in upper left, the two vertical flames on the right and the fat flame second from the left stand out.
35793
I am confounded by the markings too, because the gun is absolutely NOT fake.
It does appear that the proofs are parked over too. I had one years ago and the proofs were very shiny. I still maintain the point of the punch mark. This gun has been back to Winchester for whatever. Big Larry
Larry
That punch mark on a WWI 97 with WWII features is taken to mean a factory refurbish. Those guns are always blued. I know what you are referring to with the punch mark, but I don't think that is what it means in this case. In fact, I don't know of any re-parking by Winchester, but maybe you have some reference to this. And in any case, it is not refinished, unless the receiver was also re-hardened, because the thumb print indicates hardened areas, and any re-do of the finish destroys that.
Keydet92
05-23-2016, 07:22
Another theory. I have a Model 12 riot gun from the same period (1037014) that doesn't have US martial markings. Could this trench gun have been extra production that was never marked and accepted by the War Dept? Then at some later date an enterprising collector doctored it with US markings and possibly added the heat shield as it looks to have a lot less wear than the shotgun it's on.
Big Larry
05-23-2016, 09:19
I would hazard a guess that about 99% of all trenchguns for sale have something wrong with them and have been helped along the way. These guns are subject to fakery, and many are pieces and parts. A 100% gun is a true find these days. I got real lucky with my recent purchase as I bought it from a friend who bought it from my BIL a few years back for $2,500.I knew the pedigree of this M97. No excuse gun in a good 98%+ condition. I don't even collect these anymore, but I know a deal when I see one. Ren waxed and put away in my safe. Big Larry
Big Larry
05-23-2016, 09:26
Larry
That punch mark on a WWI 97 with WWII features is taken to mean a factory refurbish. Those guns are always blued. I know what you are referring to with the punch mark, but I don't think that is what it means in this case. In fact, I don't know of any re-parking by Winchester, but maybe you have some reference to this. And in any case, it is not refinished, unless the receiver was also re-hardened, because the thumb print indicates hardened areas, and any re-do of the finish destroys that.
The punch mark is not necessarily there as a refinish. Just means that Winchester received the shotgun back at the factory for some work. What work? Who knows. Maybe a handguard replacement.
I have seen many WW2 Winchester M75 22 target rifles with these punchmarks that still had their original blue. Most WW2 M75's you see are parkerized and have been through some kind of arsenal rework. I don't think Winchester ever parked any M75's. Parked M12's are very scarce too and are faked. Big Larry
Tom Doniphon
05-23-2016, 11:09
Maybe the gun had to be re-proofed and that is what the punch mark designates.
Another theory. I have a Model 12 riot gun from the same period (1037014) that doesn't have US martial markings. Could this trench gun have been extra production that was never marked and accepted by the War Dept? Then at some later date an enterprising collector doctored it with US markings and possibly added the heat shield as it looks to have a lot less wear than the shotgun it's on.
Ding Ding Ding I think we may have a winner. It sure looks like someone applied the receiver markings outside the factory. On what has to be the real deal.
ww2imposter
05-23-2016, 02:10
WOW, I wouldn't touch this gun for anything more than parts. The "US" is badly off center and is obviously hand applied, and the "S" is upside down. The periods after each letter were applied with different pressures. The ordnance bomb is a cheap fake. Can't tell for certain because of the picture size, but I also think the "G" in the GHD is also wrong. This is a M12 riot gun that has been humped and someone is going to get $crewd hard. Caveat emptor. My 2cents.
WOW, I wouldn't touch this gun for anything more than parts. The "US" is badly off center and is obviously hand applied, and the "S" is upside down. The periods after each letter were applied with different pressures. The ordnance bomb is a cheap fake. Can't tell for certain because of the picture size, but I also think the "G" in the GHD is also wrong. This is a M12 riot gun that has been humped and someone is going to get $crewd hard. Caveat emptor. My 2cents.
Unless they somehow changed the serial number AND faked the machine marks that is simply impossible. There are NO riot guns in that serial range. No gun ever left the Winchester factory unpolished except the last 3500 M12 trench guns with the Parked finish. And to those of us who have seen a few of these guns (even new in the box!) and are familiar with them, the main identifier is the finish. If you were to measure all the dimensions of the gun, you would find that it is actually oversized, since it was never final polished an finished. There is just no way I can imagine to fake that. It is what it is, more likely that somehow the gun turned up unmarked (contract extra?) and someone decided it needed to be marked. I would buy that gun in a heartbeat with no US markings, because I know exactly what it is.
So yes, someone may have ruined what might be a one of a kind unique gun.
Just to continue the point, I had an Ithaca 37 skeet grade that was marked FJA and the bomb. The gun was absolutely correct in every way, and brand new, but we all know that the inspector for the Ithaca guns was RLB. I have the factory records, the serial before and after that gun do appear in the shipping invoices. That gun does not. I bought it from a dealer located in the Ithaca NY area, and his story, believe it or not, was he got the gun from the estate of a former President of Ithaca.
I paid less for the gun than it would have been worth as an unmarked Skeet Grade at the time, if someone had tried to fake it, they would have actually reduced the value.
That being said, it was quite real. It was marked later than the rest of the shotguns, for unknown reasons.The WWII Ithaca .45 autos are in fact marked FJA.
So just another mystery gun, sure would like to have known the back story. Or maybe indeed it was a contract overrun and El Presidente simply kept it, as stated.
ww2imposter
05-23-2016, 03:15
The matching ser#'s do throw me a tad. I guess it is just as likely a riot gun in that ser# range as it is likely that somehow the gun turned up un marked. It seems that the more I learn about things the more I realize how little I know. I do not know what the answer is.
Either way it's humped and has been reduced to parts statis. IMO....... Caveat Emptor
Again not a riot gun. They stopped making them long before this gun was made. The adapter would not fit a riot barrel. Look at the barrel, you can clearly see the lathe marks, it was never polished for bluing.
The stock markings are right, and so is the stock finish. The late guns were not varnished in keeping with the military finish.
The markings are a mystery. The only thing I can think of is that it somehow got out without the receiver being marked and someone decided to "enhance" it. It is NOT a parts gun. Not at all. It is totally correct in every other way. It really would be interesting to know the history, every gun in that continuous serial range is in fact an original factory parked trench gun. Of that there is no doubt. And look at the pic of the serial numbers, see the area under the receiver serials? Now look at ANY other M12. You can see the area is not finished, and no one ground down a blued gun, there is more metal there. That is what the contract allowed for the parked guns, a very rough unpolished finish. There is absolutely no doubt the gun is an original parked trench gun. The only question is the unusual markings, which I agree 99% did not come out of the factory that way.
Keydet92
05-23-2016, 07:04
The serial number was applied to this frame in December of 1943 according to the WACA Historian. Just extra information that doesn't effect the current condition but is nice to know.
The serial number was applied to this frame in December of 1943 according to the WACA Historian. Just extra information that doesn't effect the current condition but is nice to know.
That is irrelevant. We already knew it was a mid WWII serial number.
SPEEDGUNNER
05-25-2016, 02:50
The shotgun in question is right as rain, but there is something that puzzles me. Just below the ejection port, in the area of the U.S. and the "thumbprint" there is a aberration in the finish...not sure if it is the lighting, the focus, or if the area is messed with in someway. Did someone try to sanitize the gun at one point, then as values rose the U.S. was reapplied? I like the rest of the gun, but that area has me wondering...
Excuse my photo-editing skills. Note how the area outside the red circle exhibits the rough soft green finish most often seen on these late 12's. The rest of the gun is consistent with this finish. The area inside the red circle is more gray, and appears to be much smoother. Factor in the upside down "S" and it is odd, very odd indeed.
35835
colt thompson
05-26-2016, 05:49
I figured someone tried to high light the US markings in white and then wiped it off
leaving a film of white
By no means am I an expert but I do have 5 parked m12's and have been a machinist for 30 years. These markings are extremely odd. Personally I think they have been added to an original gun for whatever reason. It almost looks like that area was heated possibly. After looking at my guns the US markings are in a completely different area. They are closer to the stock were original markings are closer to the barrel on all my guns. I would think if an arsenal did it they would at least have the S rightside up.
Just my 2 cents. I would love to have the gun but.
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