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5MadFarmers
05-23-2016, 04:38
It's always nice to take what exists and weave it all together in non-obvious ways. Often it points out that the most obvious answer is sometimes the right one.


"When people ask me how many guns I own I tell them the answer is complex. "Do you mean guns, things which used to be guns, or bits of guns which might end up being guns again?"

The first M-1896, formerly known as M-1892, that I owned was in the middle group. The earliest M-1896 rifle I own is in the latter group. Eventually it'll be a gun again. Most of it's there. Missing a stock. Without the lumber it isn't really a gun though. Ranges. Your guns was made at this particular point in time. Assertions to make us comfortable. Eventually they're all stone cold "original." As will that M-1896 rifle when it gets inserted in lumber maybe.


So why do I have such a focus on the Magazine Rifles? That range? Because therein was the mystery. The answer, when you see it, brings forth a chuckle. The M-1896 Cadets are in there.


Ergo the Cadets couldn't have been assembled on a receiver marked "1894" as those didn't have notches and they couldn't add them. Those had been manufactured too far ahead - why they got so far ahead on receivers is a mystery.

Or is it?:icon_lol:

Mr. Porter dropped dead. The workers at SA blamed Mordecai. "Worked him too hard." On what? Getting that new furrin rifle made. After the battle that was the trials adoption and the general view that adopting an unknown furriner was a mistake what happens at SA? They can't make the damned thing. Awkward. If you take total Krag production, all of it, that is less than the number of smokeless powder small caliber rifles the Germans made before the first Krag left SA. Embarrassing.

They got ahead on receivers. Way ahead. Way, way ahead. It's late 1895 before they burn up the receivers made in 1894. Kind of points to being a year behind doesn't it? Stands to reason that does. The "new improved" M-1896 will finally solve that awful safety issue. Also it'll have the hold open pin for the bolt. The 1894 receivers were already done. Can't go back and notch them. All M-1896s, of all types, were "1895," "1896," and "M-1896" material. 23797 is "1894." Cadets start right about there. 24597 is a carbine. Doesn't leave much room for M-1896 rifles does it?

In the report for FY1895-1896 they list lions, tigers, and bears. Oh, my. M-1892 rifles, M-1896 cadet rifles, M-1896 carbines, and M-1896 rifles. 1368 of that latter. Really? They made carbines starting in March. Those continue to the following August. The carbines seem to be a relatively solid block. Sure there are rifles in that block here and there but hiding 1,368 rifles is pretty hard to do.

23797 is a Magazine Rifle. 1894 marked receiver. Everything lower than that is unqualified to be an M-1896. 24597 is a carbine. We're past the cadets, fit 500 in there, and carbines are being made. 24597-23797=800. 23797 isn't the highest "1894" and 24597 isn't the lowest carbine. "Overlap on the carbine side." Can't very well be on the other side right? 500 cadets and 1368 M-1896 rifles is hitting on 2K rifles. We have room for 800.

Bummer that.

So what's with those 1,368 M-1896 rifles in the FY1895-1896 report? The obvious answer is generally the right one. "They lied."

Lied is such a strong word. "They distorted the truth. Stretched it a bit." Better.

Do I blame them? Not really. Production was embarrassing. So what do you do? Stretch the truth but it really isn't by that much is it? The parts were mainly made. Just not assembled. Count it anyway. Magazine Rifles without sights? In fairness screwing an M-1892 sight on them would make them serviceable so count them. Issuing them with bubble gum would as well. "Chew it until it's soft, insert it where the rear sight goes, use your mess kit knife to form a nice V. Nothing to it."

The parts for those first M-1896 rifles were well along. "Count them." Production numbers get better. Some may think that they started another production line and maybe the carbines were heading down one line with the first rifles heading down another but, to me, the receivers paint that picture as unlikely. If they had two lines I'd expect major intersperse in the two lines on serials. It doesn't exist.


The earliest M-1896 rifle I own is in the latter group. Eventually it'll be a gun again. Most of it's there. Missing a stock. Without the lumber it isn't really a gun though.

In fairness to me counting it as a gun as is would be ok. I mean, it did start life that way....

Kragrifle
05-23-2016, 08:30
Opinions on the cadets places them in the 18000-19000 range. While Mallory suggested the higher range at least two reliable collectors suggest the lower range. I have photos of one and own another rifle in the lower serial number range.

Kragrifle
05-23-2016, 09:06
The rifles I mention are both converted.

5MadFarmers
05-23-2016, 09:46
Opinions on the cadets places them in the 18000-19000 range. While Mallory suggested the higher range at least two reliable collectors suggest the lower range. I have photos of one and own another rifle in the lower serial number range.

If Mallory suggested the higher range he's right. Mook and Pearce liked the lower. For reasons listed in the other threads the lower range isn't viable. The information was there all along. I'll do it in steps.

The parts list for the cadets is in the Description and Rules manual. They're M-1896, not M-1892, Cadets. The variation from normal M-1896s is noted (cleaning rod, band springs, etc.,). The extractor and receiver were M-1896.
The 1894 dated receivers were made and case hardened. They couldn't notch them until after 1897 - the altered Magazine Rifles show that. Thus "1895" dated receivers. That points to the lower 24K range.
A Western Union Telegram from Flagler to Springfield exists dated 20 March 1896. It's clear from the telegram that the Cadets hadn't shipped from SA. That date is significant. Logically they were assembled at that time.
The first carbines are also noted as done that month. High 24K range. Right after the Cadets.

All of which points to the lower 24K range for the Cadets. "1895" dated receivers.

Not a single piece of evidence has been produced to support the 18K-19K range.

Lower 24K. If Mallory was looking at that range he was looking in the right place. The bits, even without the telegram, were clear.

Dick Hosmer
05-24-2016, 08:08
As we've discussed, I guess my 24434 "1895" barreled action, chopped at 23/24" or so, has a fairly decent shot at having once been a cadet. There was a time when I'd have made one up for fun, but the possibility is fading.

5MadFarmers
05-24-2016, 11:10
As we've discussed, I guess my 24434 "1895" barreled action, chopped at 23/24" or so, has a fairly decent shot at having once been a cadet. There was a time when I'd have made one up for fun, but the possibility is fading.

That one has an incredible chance.

What gun is most likely to have an altered cadet stock? M-1892. Why?

I open a new depot. Batavia depot. The guns that are returned from the field are M-1892s and M-1896s as the M-1898s are so new they're in the hands of the soldier boys. When the M-1892s are returned I strip them and refinish them. Out they go or into storage they go. Ditto the M-1896s. I get notice that the M-1892s are going to get altered to M-1896 format. This means stripping the guns and then altering the parts. To include the stocks. This isn't a quick IRAN. I set up a line to rework the M-1892s. It's an extensive operation. The M-1896s? They get the strip, refinish, and send out the door treatment. The cadets are received. Hmmmm. M-1896 metal bits and Magazine Rifle stocks with carbine band springs. "Feed the metal bits into the normal M-1896 rebuild line and send the stocks to the M-1892 to M-1896 alteration line."

What gun is most likely to have an altered cadet stock? M-1892. Why? Because the metal was M-1896 whereas the wood was more M-1892.

Somebody sees a gun in the 18000 range in an altered Cadet stock. "The cadets are in the 18K range!" Nyet. That's an M-1892 rebuilt to M-1896 format.

"But they stated in September of 1895 that the M-1892 sights were obsolete!" Zero doubt of that. "That's when M-1896s are put on guns!" If that means they start popping out of SA the next week I'm more than impressed. Why?

In April of 1917 they took a look. Let's take Eddystone. Capacity of 10,000 rifles a day at full go. "When is your British contract going to end?" "June." Aw, a rifle factory, one of three. "Let us alter that gun and we'll get back to you." "Ok. We're going to be shutting down the forging shop soon so you'd better snap to." "Say what?" "Metal enters one side. Guns pop out the other six months later." Really? Indeed. "Can you move heaven and earth and shorten that?" "If we really work at it it'll be three months." Eddystone finishes their last British rifle June 1st. First "Model 1917" is delivered in? October. Hmmm.

"But that's 1918 and not SA!!"

1898. March. M-1898s metal is fed in one end. When would I expect it to pop out? Counts on fingers: April, May, June, July, August, September. "September." "There is a war on." Aw, "Beginning of July." Without the war when would M-1896 rifle production have ended? "September." When did it?" "June really." "But you can't feed more M-1896 receivers in!" No, but I can accelerate production so weekly production keeps climbing throughout. I can also feed a lot more M-1898 metal in the intake. SA reported on completed rifles weekly at that time. Straight line math isn't useful in 1898 on production numbers.

September of 1895. "We're going to start making the new model. The M-1892 sight is now obsolete." When can I expect new ones? Counts on fingers: October, November, December, January, February, March. "March of 1896."

When were the cadets made? "Starting in September of 1895. Popped out in March of 1896." When were the first M-1896 carbines made? "Starting in late September of 1895. Popped out in March of 1896." Why do the early M-1896 carbines, assembled starting in March of 1896, have "1895" on the receiver? "Because the metal was melted in early Fall of 1895 and those receivers hit the stamping machine in 1895."

"But they stated in September of 1895 that the M-1892 sights were obsolete!" Zero doubt of that. If that means they start popping out of SA the next week I'm more than impressed. Why?"

Because it doesn't work that way....

Cadets are early 24K range.

In September of 1895 "M-1896" material was fed into the machine. "The last M-1892 bits are in flight. M-1896 bits are also in flight. They travel at different speeds. How do we deal with that?"

You call the M-1892 rifles "M-1892" and the M-1896 guns "M-1896." Everything that gets bits of each in that transitional stage is "Magazine Rifle." Not my term - it's in the production report. "1894" receivers finished greatly ahead of time. Followed by the "1895." Which are made with the receiver notch for M-1896 guns. The Cadets are M-1896 Cadet Rifles. The math is clear in all vectors.

madsenshooter
06-03-2016, 12:56
Has been to me for awhile now.