Ross Rifle Question

[p246]

I was given a Ross Rifle to sell by a friend who is sick and needs some medical bill money. Actually he gave me several other guns but the Ross is a little bit of a mystery and I don't want to get it wrong in the description. I'm hoping a Canadian collector knows the answer. His father bought it in the 50s to early 60s so no import marks and it is not US marked. His father collected mainly Canadian and British arms. It is a model 1907 configuration Mark II*. the bore looks good as does the wood. The bluing is worn to a even patina. It was accepted into service in 1909. So to the question.

On the wrist is a large R.C. on the unit markings on the left side of the stock is 11 over 12. His father believed it at one point belonged to the Royal Canadian Rifles circa 1914 when they were formed as part of the 12th Division. Once they left for Europe they supposedly handed in their Mark II's for new Mark III's. The only reason I question this is I thought the Royal Canadian Rifles at least on they Bayonet stuff marked them R.C.R. If you guys want a couple pics I can get them if necessary, just hoping someone knows the answer right off the top of their head.

[Ken The Kanuck]

Hi p246,

Here is a link that may answer your questions, there are some knowledgeable folks there.

http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=134&

HTH

KTK

[p246]

Thanks Ken. I surfed the Ross section a bit and didn't find any mention of R.C. but I just got started. I was wrong about one thing. The stock had some grime on it behind the trigger guard. Some light cleaning with BLO revealed a rack number in the 3000 range. What is most definitely a light US stamp mark and above that what appears to be whats left of a light flaming bomb mark. So this was one of 20,000 MK II's brought to the US in 1917 as drill rifles. I'm not sure what was done with this gun but it is not beat up at all. I get some time I'll post a couple pics.

[p246]

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/66e1d1c5-c5b5-419c-a4f0-edf698d1b892.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/66e1d1c5-c5b5-419c-a4f0-edf698d1b892.jpg.html)

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/cd2ab268-f776-4232-8ef7-9a5259ec55fa.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/cd2ab268-f776-4232-8ef7-9a5259ec55fa.jpg.html)

[p246]

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/f7b0f484-be36-48cf-a753-c3b87a0269a1.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/f7b0f484-be36-48cf-a753-c3b87a0269a1.jpg.html)

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/ef9900c3-53c6-4322-bb82-b9529f504c94.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/ef9900c3-53c6-4322-bb82-b9529f504c94.jpg.html)

[p246]

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/7b2bef94-56a5-4042-81d1-4218ada69091.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/7b2bef94-56a5-4042-81d1-4218ada69091.jpg.html)
http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af257/p246/d15ac960-d299-47ed-9d2a-f37fd0229ed6.jpg (http://s1013.photobucket.com/user/p246/media/d15ac960-d299-47ed-9d2a-f37fd0229ed6.jpg.html)

[p246]

So on the wrist its hard to make out in the picture but next to the trigger guard is what's left of flaming bomb, under that is U.S. Under that is 3017 (US Rack #) Under that is a small letter L, Under that is the stacked R.C. The R.C. is deeper and in a much larger font than the rest. On the stock it has the acceptance stamp. The serial number 109BC over the date 1909. I see the II* and a B83 which I understand is a rack number. The 11 over 12 and 83 over 101 has something to do with what unit it was assigned to. Any help is appreciated or opinions on the piece. The bore is good bright grooves dark lands. It functions properly.

[Sunray]

RCR is the Royal Canadian Regiment. The Royal Canadian Rifle Regiment, not related, was disbanded on 30 September 1870. No RCR's until 1883.
However, an 'RC' stamped on a rifle doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the RCR's. Far more likely to have be en put there by the U.S.
"...the 12th Division..." Um, no. RCR's were part of the 3rd Canadian Div. And were not in Europe until 1915. By which time the CEF was issued Ross Mk III's.

[p246]

RCR is the Royal Canadian Regiment. The Royal Canadian Rifle Regiment, not related, was disbanded on 30 September 1870. No RCR's until 1883.
However, an 'RC' stamped on a rifle doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the RCR's. Far more likely to have be en put there by the U.S.
"...the 12th Division..." Um, no. RCR's were part of the 3rd Canadian Div. And were not in Europe until 1915. By which time the CEF was issued Ross Mk III's.

RCR from what I found were reconstituted in 1914 then sent to Europe in 1915 with brand new Mark III's that xxxx the bed at YPRES. I think the assumption (by him) was in 1914 they probably trained up with some MarkIIs. I found info that the RCR was assigned to the 12th Reserve Battalion. But what I can't find is was it after YPRES, which is what I'm thinking happened after the losses at YPRES. Regardless I concede two things: we are in agreement on the R.C. and I tip my hat that you are more versed on Canadian Unit history than I am.

I see two issues: Like you I think the R.C. was put there by someone else. Everything I've seen on the R.C.R (my interest was mainly from WWII Hong Kong) is they stamped stuff R.C.R. If they did have Mark II's in training in 1914 they would have been assigned to the 3rd Div. as you cited. The 11/12 and 83/101 are not completely understood by me, I'm still trying to figure that out. One post I found said the 11/12 is a date Nov/1912 as a issue to date and the other is the Unit. But 83/101 makes no sense to me as a unit number. The R.C. is deeper and much crisper than the US, flaming bomb, and US rack number. This points to it being done after 1917. Hell it could be a civilian owners initials for all I know.

I listed it on GB as a US marked Mk II*. I posted pictures of the markings and left it at that. I found a few similar to it that sold around $800.00 so that's what I listed it as. I'm doing this all as a favor, but I'm getting a lot of enjoyment out of learning about some rifles I was not that familiar with.

[musketshooter]

There is an excellent article in the July issue of the RIFLE magazine on the 1905 Ross rifle.