Theodore Roosevelt Commemorative Match

[psteinmayer]

Howdy all...

Well, the Nationals were great fun, but now we're coming up on possibly the greatest match of all: One that has been (finally) designed and designated to assemble a group Krag shooters - the Theodore Roosevelt Commemorative Rifle Match.

I'll be there with my son, and a few other friends. I invite anyone who is going to meet up with us! We'll be there Saturday night before the match and would love to share a meal and some stories. Then, we can all meet at the Viale Range gate and squad together.

Who's going? Please let me know, and I'll find a great place for us to meet up for dinner!

This is going to be a GREAT match, and a lot of fun too!!!

Paul

[madsenshooter]

I am officially in, just got off the CMP website. A reminder to interested parties, pretty sure I read online registration ends the 8th.

[jon_norstog]

Maybe next year...

jn

[madsenshooter]

After considerable testing, I've decided to go with the load shown here: http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1458778749 Jon, next year the Vintage and Roosevelt will be closer together, in August, so maybe you can catch both. Oh, and bring your Garand too, if you don't have one, you can use mine, but you'll have to shoot the unlimited class with it.

[psteinmayer]

Ok... For those who are heading to Camp Perry to shoot in the Roosevelt Match, I have some important information that I was made aware of this morning, and have confirmed with the CMP.

First of all, the match will be held on the Viale Range and first shot will be at 7:00 AM. Also, walk-ons may be possible (but don't quote me on this).

Now for the important info: The Welcome Center (which is where you will check in) will only be open from 6:00 AM to 12:00 PM Noon every day leading up to the match. Since squadding starts at 5:45 AM on Sunday, I would HIGHLY advise everyone not already checked in for other matches to arrive on Saturday before 11:00 AM and get checked in (your check-in for the National Matches does not cover the Legacy Matches). It would be a shame to miss this historic match because of missing the check-in!

[psteinmayer]

Howdy all,

Just received some more info from the CMP on the Roosevelt Match:

The match will be held on the Viale Range. There will be four relays, with 1 & 2 shooting first, and 3 & 4 pitting first. Squadding will start at 7:00 AM, and first shots will be at 8:00 AM. All shooting should be completed by noon.

Now, the information I received also stated that Krags, 1903s, AND 1903A3s will be permitted!

I'm still shooting my Krag!!! That's how Teddy Roosevelt would have had it...

Hope to see some of my Krag family on the line!

[madsenshooter]

Only 15 Krags out of 40 rifles on the line! Top Krag placed 5th in the match. No 03A3s to contend with in future Roosevelt matches. I need one of you guys that can really shoot to shoot my rifle, I know it it will do better than I can.

[M2Phil]

Only 15 Krags out of 40 rifles on the line! Top Krag placed 5th in the match. No 03A3s to contend with in future Roosevelt matches. I need one of you guys that can really shoot to shoot my rifle, I know it it will do better than I can. It was a little surprising that A) so few people attended -57?-, and B) there were more supposedly disallowed M1903A3's than Krags. Which FP were you guys on?

[psteinmayer]

I was on 81 with my son. Bob was on 80 shooting with Randy Ent. There were also Krags on 79 and 82 beside us. It was sad that so few Krags showed up... and even sadder that so many A3s did! I, Randy, Bob, my son, and even those shooting on 82 were quite vocal about the allowance of the A3s in the match... and I think it was Randy who finally complained loud enough for them to separate the A3s in the scoring! Here's a few pictures:

Me
37024
Bob
37025
My son Ron
37026
Randy
37027

[M2Phil]

I think the scoring solution was handled fairly, and am glad that people spoke up about it, so Thanks! We were on 91, got to the line embarrassingly late (smack!) among other things, but had a great time regardless. The old granny from 1902 did not disappoint.

[madsenshooter]

I tried to talk them into letting me shoot my Krag in the Springfield match once, with the logic that it was made by Springfield Arsenal and says Springfield on it. That didn't float. But if I can't shoot my Krag in their match, why should they be allowed to shot their 03a3s in a match for Krags and 03s. But, if they get real specific, where's that leave Culpepper and his 95, or Lee Navy rifles? Anyway, here's a video Paul's son took with my camera. Must be something wrong with the contrast, my hair don't look that white when I look in the mirror! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYuCFjCuxEw

[psteinmayer]

You were next to a few friends if mine from western Michigan shooting on 90. I've been shooting with them for a few years now in local matches at KRGC in Kalamazoo, MI. One of them, David Graham was definitely shooting his Krag.

As for the match, I did fairly well initially, shooting a 96-1X in Slow Prone, and then pulled everything grouped low right for an 82-0X in Rapid. I fell apart in the Awful-Hand! I had a hard trigger on two which caused me to pull the barrel low and hit the berm, and then rushed a shot high for three misses, giving me a dismal 48-0X. All this for a whopping 226-1X! Oh well... next year, I'll take it by storm!!!

Wish I had known you were on 91... I would have said hi! Next year, maybe we can all get together afterwards with our Krags for a group photo!!!

[madsenshooter]

Never mind the photos, just get to the fish! LOL! Good stuff, even if they do come outta Lake Erie! That 130gr Special Ops bullet didn't seem to be so special at 200yds for me, it was like it would barely hold the bull, 8 out one side, then 8 out the other side or the same up and down. I only had one ten for the match, rest were 8s and 9s! No doubt a bit of it was me, but I usually hold pretty good from prone. Wound up with a 250, good for first position below middle of the pack. Works out the same if I only consider Krag scores.

[psteinmayer]

My friend Dave (shooting on FP 90) shot a 254-1X with his Krag... and was NOT happy with his results. At this point, I would be thrilled with the 254! If I had shot M2Phil's 270-1X... I would have required a change of undergarments! LOL

[M2Phil]

Great video! Those Steinmayer Krag chargers are slick! Viale makes everybody look grayer, balder, older, and fatter than they really are! Of course it doesn't help to be any (or all) of those things to begin with. The guys next to us (relays 3&4) were from MI, both shooting nice M1903's, one using a 1941 sniper with the scope removed. 96-1 slow prone shows what a Krag will do, in fine fashion, while 46-0 just shows there's truth in the phrase "Awful-hand", some days being "awfuller" than others! I shot a beautiful SMLE in Vintage two weeks ago and just stunk the place up with generally rotten shooting. The fumes are probably still lingering! We all probably walked right past one another several times, but there's always next year! I hope!

[psteinmayer]

The guy shooting the 1941 was Phil Randall... another friend of mine. He routinely crushes me in matches! I was surprised he didn't shoot his Krag because we had talked about him shooting it in the Roosevelt.

Don't you have a couple chargers Phil?

[CJCulpeper]

I tried to talk them into letting me shoot my Krag in the Springfield match once, with the logic that it was made by Springfield Arsenal and says Springfield on it. That didn't float. But if I can't shoot my Krag in their match, why should they be allowed to shot their 03a3s in a match for Krags and 03s. But, if they get real specific, where's that leave Culpepper and his 95, or Lee Navy rifles? Anyway, here's a video Paul's son took with my camera. Must be something wrong with the contrast, my hair don't look that white when I look in the mirror! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYuCFjCuxEw

So here we have a match that supposedly celebrates the early days of Camp Perry, that rotten Roosevelt (spit) and by extension the Spanish and Philippine Wars and where the main Army only guns of that era were to be allowed in the event. Yet they allowed the 1903A3? I can understand the Remington 1903 since it is the same platform as the SA and RIA rifles. What does the rule book say? Then I guess what was the intent of the guys who dreamed up the event?

As for Krags in the Springfield matches, perhaps the argument should go as the Springfield guns of 1894, 1895, 1896, 1898 and 1899 are referred to names of the original designers and should be included in the Springfield shoots since they were built at the Armory. If they are not allowed then the Springfield Match needs to be opened up to Mauser rifles of the era and renamed the Mauser Match to correctly label the shooting event with the name of the original designer of the gun.

Just thinkin...

added

Maybe we should stop using the name Krag and start using Springfield 1894 or 1899 Springfield when signing up for matches. Nothing is lost and everything can be gained. Even glaciers melt over time.

[Dick Hosmer]

I'm assuming the "problem" with the 1903A3 is the more efficient and better (longer sight radius) rear sight? That seems like a fair complaint to me - they can shoot in other matches.

Since this is a vintage match, supposedly offered solely for the purpose of having fun, some different rules could be added.

(1) More time for reloading in rapid fire?

(2) Limit entries to US-made military repeating rifles assembed during TR's lifetime? OR, issue a very specific list of weapons, including the Lee and 95 Winchester, and STICK TO IT.

Remember, I have zero experience in organized highpower competition.

[psteinmayer]

OUCH! Thanks Paul... now my head hurts! LOL

The logic is certainly flawed. Springfield Match, by rule, includes all rifles of the 1903 receiver design (1903, 1903A1 and 1903A3). However, by definition (using Bob's logic) should include all rifles manufactured at the Springfield armory, would now exclude Remington, RIA, and Smith Corona, and really should include Springfield Garand rifles too! Take it down the Culpepper path, to include rifles of Mauser design, now excludes Krags, but includes Mausers, Cacarnos, Arisakas, etc. Hmmmmmm

Originally, the Vintage Rifle match was intended to include U.S. arms that were not included in the Springfield Rifle class - the Krag and 1917. This was expanded (probably because someone complained loud enough) to include foreign bolt-action military rifles, i.e. Mauser, Nagant, Enfield, Arisaka, etc. Technically, each rifle should be judged of it's own accord. In other words: don't judge a Krag against a Mauser or Nagant. An Arisaka will never be able to compete against a 1917... and so on. In the Vintage Match, they are all classed together, and the waters get pretty murky!

No, I really think we should (IMHO) have the Roosevelt include A.) Krags only... or B.) Krags and 1903s only (to exclude later 1903s of WWII era, even though they technically are 1903s). It really is the only fair way to class the match - limited to rifles of Theodore Roosevelt/early National Rifle Match era only. The match was intended to celebrate Roosevelt as the father of the National Matches and the CMP... and as such, really should stick to the rifles that were allowed in that era!

By the way, in future matches, 1903A3s will be forbidden.

So let it be written... so let it be done!

[Dick Hosmer]

I tried to talk them into letting me shoot my Krag in the Springfield match once, with the logic that it was made by Springfield Arsenal and says Springfield on it. That didn't float. But if I can't shoot my Krag in their match, why should they be allowed to shot their 03a3s in a match for Krags and 03s. But, if they get real specific, where's that leave Culpepper and his 95, or Lee Navy rifles? Anyway, here's a video Paul's son took with my camera. Must be something wrong with the contrast, my hair don't look that white when I look in the mirror! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYuCFjCuxEw

Loved the video, Bob, but do have a question. There seems (to this TOTAL novice) to be a LOT of wasted motion. Having watched a bunch of the Scandinavian shooters shows that the Krag mechanics are handled much differently. Yes I DO realize that the goals are different, but it would seem that using their MO with our time limit and fixed shot count would mean a lot more time for aiming, waiting out a wind gust, etc. Not intending to be critical, just wondering?

[Dick Hosmer]

Paul, did you mean "Thanks Dick", or were you responding to a different post?

[CJCulpeper]

...It really is the only fair way to class the match - limited to rifles of Theodore Roosevelt/early National Rifle Match era only. The match was intended to celebrate Roosevelt as the father of the National Matches and the CMP... and as such, really should stick to the rifles that were allowed in that era!

The original rifles shot at Perry during Roosevelt's (spit) administration were the Krags and low number 1903s. There, I solved the problem. Just allow all Krags and only 1903s made before Noon March 4, 1909.

[psteinmayer]

Paul, did you mean "Thanks Dick", or were you responding to a different post?

Naw... I was referring to Culpepper's post. Yours hadn't actually been posted while I was typing my response.

[psteinmayer]

The original rifles shot at Perry during Roosevelt's (spit) administration were the Krags and low number 1903s. There, I solved the problem. Just allow all Krags and only 1903s made before Noon March 4, 1909.

Perfect! Except for one (small) hiccup - that being low numbered 03s are forbidden to be fired at Camp Perry (due to the heat treatment problems and the associated inherent dangers of shooting them).

[CJCulpeper]

Therefore it will be a Krag only match. We will clean up! The logic is infallible and I am unanimous in that.

[psteinmayer]

Loved the video

LOL Did you notice me having a stove-pipe case at one point? I guess I should pull my bolt back with more gust-o... as my cases just sort of flop out rather than fly. Too used to trying to keep my brass close!

[Roadkingtrax]

Turning away paying match fees is not a smart idea. Allowing others to shoot, and be classified as a 1903a3 was the way to go.

Anyone shoot M1893 Mausers? :)

[M2Phil]

Krags and M1903's (high number, of whatever era and mfg. since there's no real difference between a 1918 RIA, a 1930 SA, or a 1942 RA) was the way to go, allowing for the 6mm Lee as well, if someone has one to shoot. I think they handled it well by allowing 03A3's *this time* and scoring them according to Springfield match rules. Paul, you had that potential (hair-pulling, wild-eyed rant-inducing) stoppage cleared in a split second. As we well know, they don't usually get resolved so quickly. I don't have any of your chargers but those gizmos work very well, as the video clearly shows. Interesting observations Dick Hosmer, but I didn't notice any wasted motion. Not that there wasn't any, it just never seemed so to my non-Taylorist sensibilities:icon_wink:. It'd be worthwhile to learn how Scandinavian shooters differ in their approach.

[madsenshooter]

I know Dick, I'm working on using my middle finger while keeping hold of the bolt, and I actually did it for some shots last year, I just haven't done it enough to be fully proficient at it. Maybe next year. I don't do too bad, watch the muzzle of my rifle in the background. I keep it shouldered while working the bolt, and sometimes while recharging.

[psteinmayer]

If you watch those Scandinavians, they are really slick in their approach, and I'm betting that their loads are very mild too! It appears that they trigger with their pinkies and never let go of the bolt handle.

What I need to practice with is keeping my rifle shouldered while cycling the bolt. It's difficult with my torn shoulder though... but I'm getting better at it.

[jon_norstog]

I know Dick, I'm working on using my middle finger while keeping hold of the bolt,.....

I, too have been finding use for my middle finger. Just not at the range.

jn

[madsenshooter]

If you watch those Scandinavians, they are really slick in their approach, and I'm betting that their loads are very mild too! It appears that they trigger with their pinkies and never let go of the bolt handle.

What I need to practice with is keeping my rifle shouldered while cycling the bolt. It's difficult with my torn shoulder though... but I'm getting better at it.

That 03a3 should, in my opinion work just as freely as a Krag. I mean the bolt uplift, nothing wrong with the cycling. Like I mentioned to you, the fellow that came in fifth in the Springfield told me this was the first time he got hold of one he could work from the shoulder. That family of shooters has a trophy room bigger than my little house!

[madsenshooter]

I, too have been finding use for my middle finger. Just not at the range.

jn

I cut the very tip of mine off in a paper cutter once Jon. It was the machine's fault, and I threatened to sue the guy cause I lost my pinball flipping finger! I even got an attorney, but he died. I've not been the pinball wizard I once was since loosing that tip.

[madsenshooter]

There are some pics of the Roosevelt match here: http://cmp1.zenfolio.com/p459766666 None of me or Paul, but I noted the 1903 with a scope mount, and maybe a couple of some Krag shooters in the same area.

[psteinmayer]

The pictures appear to be of the 3/4 relays and the awards ceremony only. There are two guys shooting that 03 with the scope mount. The first is my friend Phil, and the second must be his partner because that is Phil's rifle. Great match! Wish there were more pictures of the Krags...

[madsenshooter]

Zenfolio guy must've got up late. I also dug through Garand, Vintage, and Springfield looking for us.