View Full Version : Annealing question
i only neck size my .303 British and .30-06 Sprg cases and recently began annealing the necks after having several split after being reloaded several times. Annealing only takes a few seconds per case so I do it every time I reload them.
Question: in order for annealing to take place, should the cases be allowed to cool down gradually, or should they be cooled rapidly in water?
Merc
Annealing takes place once the brass hits the 650 to 750 mark (experts vary in their opinion on which is best (I use 750 on everything but 223, that I go to 650). Once the brass hits that mark its properly annealed. Whether it's air dropped to a damp cloth or water dropped makes no difference. Brass only work hardens, rapid decreases in temperature does not effect it. Mine gets dropped on a damp cloth. I then soak it in a 10 percent alcohol/water solution to remove the Templac. I anneal my 303 Brit every time. Long range 300 WM and 308 every time. All else every 3rd firing.i use the Anneal Rite system (3 torches) which is plenty fast enough for me. There are several automated systems that work well and are faster but a lot more expensive.
My circa mid 70's Lyman manual instructs to stand the unprimed brass in a pan of water at a depth of approx. one half the length (height?) of the brass. Heat case neck with torch until "cherry red", at which point immediately knock the brass over into the water with the tip of the torch. Immediately submerging the "cherry red" casing in cool water amounts to "quenching". This is the only annealing process I ever followed and it worked well for me.
PhillipM
08-03-2016, 10:14
i only neck size my .303 British and .30-06 Sprg cases and recently began annealing the necks after having several split after being reloaded several times. Annealing only takes a few seconds per case so I do it every time I reload them.
Question: in order for annealing to take place, should the cases be allowed to cool down gradually, or should they be cooled rapidly in water?
Merc
You may have generous chambers. I've not had that problem with 03 or M1 rifles. Can't speak to the 303
I don't think that you're hurting anything by annealing cases after just one firing, but then again if a case is properly annealed it should be good for at least a half dozen firings before even starting to need re-annealing.
I don't think that you're hurting anything by annealing cases after just one firing, but then again if a case is properly annealed it should be good for at least a half dozen firings before even starting to need re-annealing.
Depends on what your doing. In my 303s I'm dealing with oversized chambers that over work the brass. I've found if I anneal every loading I can get six reloads on average instead of 3 to 4 with privibrass. My 300 WM 308 and 223 bolt guns are all blue printed rifles. Completely different animal, I anneal to help with equal neck tension on trimmed brass.
i only neck size my .303 British and .30-06 Sprg cases and recently began annealing the necks after having several split after being reloaded several times. Annealing only takes a few seconds per case so I do it every time I reload them.
Question: in order for annealing to take place, should the cases be allowed to cool down gradually, or should they be cooled rapidly in water?
Merc
It has been so many years ago no one remembers how it all got started and most never knew 'the WHY'.
F. Guffey
Major Tom
08-04-2016, 03:24
My circa mid 70's Lyman manual instructs to stand the unprimed brass in a pan of water at a depth of approx. one half the length (height?) of the brass. Heat case neck with torch until "cherry red", at which point immediately knock the brass over into the water with the tip of the torch. Immediately submerging the "cherry red" casing in cool water amounts to "quenching". This is the only annealing process I ever followed and it worked well for me.
This is what I do!
This method seems simpler and much less expensive than trying to reach a specific 700 degree temperature using Tempilaq. Everyone agrees that raising the neck temperature to a glowing 1200 degrees doesn't harm the brass.
Johnny P
08-04-2016, 05:55
I shot the .22-250 for several years before it became a commercial caliber, forming the cases from .250 Savage brass. I used the heat and tip method and got great case life.
Unlike steel, the brass remains soft when quickly quenched.
If heating past 850 works for you great. When building match loads for my long range rifles that won't work. Using a Redding bushing the brass becomes too soft and the bushing pushes a ring of brass down the neck. If I stay at 750 I get the neck tension I want. I'm shooting a rifle I expect 1/2 MOA accuracy out of everyday. Since I'm set up to anneal
this way, I use it on the mil surp cases to. Regardless the important aspect of annealing is not heating the rim area past 450 degrees. Using the base in water method works for this just fine. If your trying to build precision ammo for precision rifle like everything else it takes more time and money.
"...I do it every time I reload them..." 100% totally unnecessary.
"...cherry red..." Too hot. WAAAAY too hot. Means the rest of the case below the shoulder is likely annealed. You do not want that.
Brass needs to be hot enough to change the colour of the brass and no more. Brass melts at roughly 1652-1724F. Brass anneals at approximately 650-700 degrees Fahrenheit.
http://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing
http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
A propane torch kit with a pan of tap water is cheap and easy to use but rich guys buy these.
http://www.annealingmachines.com/how-to-anneal.html
Parashooter
08-04-2016, 12:07
For most rifle cases, this doesn't have to be complicated, expensive, or wet. Hold base in fingers, apply torch to shoulder, watch color change, drop in dry metal pan to cool. (Fingers tell us if we're doing it wrong.)
http://i53.tinypic.com/2qly3ro.jpg
Standing in water needed only for short pistol cases - which few handloaders anneal anyway.
For most rifle cases, this doesn't have to be complicated, expensive, or wet. Hold base in fingers, apply torch to shoulder, watch color change, drop in dry metal pan to cool. (Fingers tell us if we're doing it wrong.)
http://i53.tinypic.com/2qly3ro.jpg
Standing in water needed only for short pistol cases - which few handloaders anneal anyway.
Like you say, it doesn't have to be complicated.
It has been so many years ago no one remembers how it all got started and most never knew 'the WHY'.
F. Guffey
Like you say, it doesn't have to be complicated.
There is nothing impressive about starting with "All you have to do...." I believe parashooter's video has changed, at one time he started out holding the case in his hand and then; the video stops, the hand disappears and the annealing video starts again without it. So overtime he has changed his method and or technique.
Like I said there are a few simple rules to annealing , I do not know on one that starts with "all you gotta do is etc."
F. Guffey".
Parashooter
08-04-2016, 09:10
It's not a video, Mr. Guffey. It's a series of 7 still photos shot and presented in sequence (animated GIF). It hasn't changed since I assembled it several years ago. The fingers are there from start to finish. Look carefully in the lower left corner to see flesh in every frame.
PhillipM
08-04-2016, 09:29
The only time I ever did it, I used the water method and being short a propane torch, I used my oxygen acetylene cutting torch. That flame is between 5800 and 6200. Suffice to say, a quick hit was all that was needed.
For my service rifle uses, I decided it was a waste of time. The primer pockets blow out before any case necks split.
It's not a video, Mr. Guffey. It's a series of 7 still photos shot and presented in sequence (animated GIF). It hasn't changed since I assembled it several years ago. The fingers are there from start to finish. Look carefully in the lower left corner to see flesh in every frame.
Well I tried Parashooters method tonight since I was annealing some 6.5 X 55. I still used Templac I guess just because I always have. It worked just fine although the annealing color was not as equal as using the two torch system I have but of course it cost more than your method. I switched to .223 and I'd probably have to wear a glove for them. Not because the brass got my finger hot but the heat off the flame did. With that short case I just couldn't get my fingers far enough away. Anyway there several ways to get the job done. Parashooter is doing it with a $20.00 kit (estimate). I've got about $120.00 in mine. The kit Sunray mentioned is around $500.00, and I've seen one for over $600.00. Depends on how much your doing and how much coin you want to spend. I do believe I like the art of reloading as much or more than shooting and I like that a lot.
psteinmayer
08-05-2016, 05:59
Not that it's necessary... but I put my cases in a LEE trimmer collet chucked up in my drill, and spin the cases as I heat them. Helps me to heat them evenly, and works well... for me anyway.
Sportsdad60
08-05-2016, 06:51
I prefer a socket that fits the brass. :)
Excuse the work shirt.
https://vimeo.com/169175518
psteinmayer
08-05-2016, 07:18
That looks to work pretty well too!
[QUOTE=p246;466597]Well I tried Parashooters method tonight since I was annealing some 6.5 X 55. I still used Templac I guess just because I always have. It worked just fine although the annealing color was not as equal as using the two torch system I have but of course it cost more than your method. [QUOTE]
Meaning you stopped annealing the case when the case head got too hot to hold or did the templac indicated the shoulder neck got hot enough? With one torch and what would have been the advantage of using two torches? You have to remember in the beginning some reloaders used candles as a heat source and held the case in their hand.
F. Guffey
Ok, to summarize, the best temperature to anneal brass is about 700 degrees. Heating beyond that temperature can make the brass too soft and reduce neck tension and possibly soften the entire case (undesirable) instead of just the neck area unless it's half submerged in water. Observing a change in the color of the heated brass while holding it with bare fingers is one simple approximate way to reach the desired neck temperature and applying Tempilaq to the neck is more precise but also more expensive.
What about annealing to 700 degrees every time a case neck is resized? Will that also make the brass too soft and decrease neck tension? I only mention this because of how complicated it is to keep track of how many times a case has been resized since I only shoot a few cartridges at a time.
Ok, to summarize, the best temperature to anneal brass is about 700 degrees. Heating beyond that temperature can make the brass too soft and reduce neck tension and possibly soften the entire case (undesirable) instead of just the neck area unless it's half submerged in water. Observing a change in the color of the heated brass while holding it with bare fingers is one simple approximate way to reach the desired neck temperature and applying Tempilaq to the neck is more precise but also more expensive.
What about annealing to 700 degrees every time a case neck is resized? Will that also make the brass too soft and decrease neck tension? I only mention this because of how complicated it is to keep track of how many times a case has been resized since I only shoot a few cartridges at a time.
I keep 50 round lots, segregated to each of my three 303's, in those translucent 50 round plastic boxes (made for "large rifle") with the flip up lid. I keep wherever info I want on the piece of paper that I lightly glue to the inside of the lid. When you finish with the last round in box you could make a "hash" mark indicating that the lot has been fired one time, make additional marks as needed. As I long ago determined my "pet" 303 loads, I always reload the entire 50 rounds after the last round in the box is fired. The one thing that I learned long ago about reloading management was to use the batch method after you determine what shoots good. Other than for experimental purposes, loading a half dozen rounds of this or that will cause you to lose track of what's what.
[QUOTE=fguffey;466744][QUOTE=p246;466597]Well I tried Parashooters method tonight since I was annealing some 6.5 X 55. I still used Templac I guess just because I always have. It worked just fine although the annealing color was not as equal as using the two torch system I have but of course it cost more than your method. [QUOTE]
Meaning you stopped annealing the case when the case head got too hot to hold or did the templac indicated the shoulder neck got hot enough? With one torch and what would have been the advantage of using two torches? You have to remember in the beginning some reloaders used candles as a heat source and held the case in their hand.
With the 223 case my fingers got "uncomfortable". Mainly because the case is so much shorter-fingers closer to torch. I'm annealing from a bench rest background. Most people would never spend the time on brass prep I do. I will also admit some of that carry over to milsurp reloading is probably over kill based on habit.
With the 2 torch method the flame envelopes the brass case giving a good even distribution of heat. If you want perfect release from the case mouth that even annealing is in play. Second reason is speed. I anneal a lot so if I can cut the process from 2 seconds per case to 1 that helps as time is my biggest hurdle. For plinking most of the above mentioned processes work just fine.
KCW,
Makes sense. You tend to spread wear out that way. So, how many times do you fire the group befor annealing them?
Merc
Ok, to summarize, the best temperature to anneal brass is about 700 degrees. Heating beyond that temperature can make the brass too soft and reduce neck tension and possibly soften the entire case (undesirable) instead of just the neck area unless it's half submerged in water. Observing a change in the color of the heated brass while holding it with bare fingers is one simple approximate way to reach the desired neck temperature and applying Tempilaq to the neck is more precise but also more expensive.
What about annealing to 700 degrees every time a case neck is resized? Will that also make the brass too soft and decrease neck tension? I only mention this because of how complicated it is to keep track of how many times a case has been resized since I only shoot a few cartridges at a time.
My benchrest gun is a 300 Win Mag. I get 12 to 1300 rds out of the barrel then its replaced. I buy 100 Rds of Norma Brass its annealed every reload. I run it through a Larry Willis Magnum Die to fix the bulge that forms in front of the band from reloading over and over. This is done every fourth reload. They are loaded with 80.1 grains Retumbo pushing Berger 215 Hybrids. Once the 1 in 9 twist barrel is burned out I toss the brass. I've burned out 3 barrels this way. 1 case neck cracked at the end of the barrel life. Annealing if done properly will extend brass life not shorten it.
KCW,
Makes sense. You tend to spread wear out that way. So, how many times do you fire the group befor annealing them?
Merc
I used to get a good 10 reloads after annealing. Of course my loads are rather mild, so that probably works into the equation. As I mentioned in one of my previous posts on this subject, I haven't bothered to anneal in many years because I seem to have a reliable supply of once fire 303 from my gun club. In recent years I've been collecting more brass than I'm using up. I partial resize any once fired "range brass" only to the point that the brass will just fit in the tightest of my 303's (a Winchester P-14). When I reach the point where I find a couple of splits in a box of 50, I cashier the batch to scrap and bring in 50 new ones from my stockpile of the partial resized range brass. All reloading thereafter is by neck sizing only with my old Lee loader. Depending on the maker, I'll get 15 reloads on most of this once fire stuff, more if I'm shooting cast.
I used to get a good 10 reloads after annealing. Of course my loads are rather mild, so that probably works into the equation. As I mentioned in one of my previous posts on this subject, I haven't bothered to anneal in many years because I seem to have a reliable supply of once fire 303 from my gun club. In recent years I've been collecting more brass than I'm using up. I partial resize any once fired "range brass" only to the point that the brass will just fit in the tightest of my 303's (a Winchester P-14). When I reach the point where I find a couple of splits in a box of 50, I cashier the batch to scrap and bring in 50 new ones from my stockpile of the partial resized range brass. All reloading thereafter is by neck sizing only with my old Lee loader. Depending on the maker, I'll get 15 reloads on most of this once fire stuff, more if I'm shooting cast.
It's interesting that you can get so many reloads without cracking necks. The necks have been cracking on my .303 PPU cases after just 3 or 4 reload cycles. That's why I'm tempted to anneal the necks every time. It only takes a few seconds to do so its no big deal unless annealing that often is causing the brass to soften excessively and affecting neck tension. I also use a Lee Loader with the recommended starting powder charge of BLC(2) so I'm not anywhere close to maximum charge and can still shoot accurately at 100 yards.
Merc
It's interesting that you can get so many reloads without cracking necks. The necks have been cracking on my .303 PPU cases after just 3 or 4 reload cycles. That's why I'm tempted to anneal the necks every time. It only takes a few seconds to do so its no big deal unless annealing that often is causing the brass to soften excessively and affecting neck tension. I also use a Lee Loader with the recommended starting powder charge of BLC(2) so I'm not anywhere close to maximum charge and can still shoot accurately at 100 yards.
Merc
The initial quality of the brass can have a huge effect on the ability to reload it. My 1st attempt at reloading was with the 303 in 1975 with the previously mentioned P-14. . At the time there was zero surplus military ammo to be had and limited commercial stuff. I bought 5 boxes of commercial rounds @ K-Mart for $4 a box on sale. It was Italian made Fiochi (sp?). That was the BEST brass I ever had in ANY caliber for reloading. Using my Lee Loader and the load chart included in the Lee kit, I got upwards of 30 reloads before the brass split! After I wore out the 1st box of 20 pieces without annealing I then started annealing with the next box. By the time I got started on the third box, surplus ammo was one again coming on the market, as was an increased supply of commercial ammo. I still have an untouched box of that K-mart ammo. Of course you can't discount the possibility that your rifle simply has an unusually large diameter in the neck area of the chamber. On the other hand you might try a box of a different brand, or two, of ammo
It's interesting that you can get so many reloads without cracking necks. The necks have been cracking on my .303 PPU cases after just 3 or 4 reload cycles. That's why I'm tempted to anneal the necks every time. It only takes a few seconds to do so its no big deal unless annealing that often is causing the brass to soften excessively and affecting neck tension. I also use a Lee Loader with the recommended starting powder charge of BLC(2) so I'm not anywhere close to maximum charge and can still shoot accurately at 100 yards.
Merc
I think a lot of it has to do with the Enfield your loading for and the size of the chamber. One of my brass eaters is a 1944 Ishsy wire wrap. I suspect it's a post independence rebuild. Since its wire wrapped I've never taken the wood off to confirm this. The bore was imaculate and when slugged was like new. This was a Sarco 90s import per the man I bought it from. When it started eating Privi brass I found the case mouths were blowing out 5 to 6 thousands more than my other shooters, both No1 Mark III * and No 4 mark 1 and 1*s. A chamber cast confirmed what I was seeing. The case body is only slightly bigger 1 thousands than both my Lithgow Shooters I was comparing it to. The bullets neck is 5 thousands bigger than both Lithgows. A bore scope of the throat shows it to be long but in good shape.
So this rifle when the brass is annealed and neck sized only will start cracking necks at around the 6th reload. Basically because the neck is being so over worked. I'm using pulled surplus bullets and driving them at 2400, so the load is not tame but not super hot. Amazeinly the rifle is my best No1 mark Iii* shooter. At our local match it is the only No1 I've scored in the 170s with (out of 200 possible).
I've been told by two different smiths two different explanations. One...reamer out of spec as India struggled some with rifle production after the Brits left. Two...finish reamer out of spec....don't know who is right.
All my other Enfields( except for a 1915 Lithgow brass eater) I load 10 times (anneal/neck size) then I pitch them. Based on some of the other posts I might try and bump them up a couple more reloads.
I do have a matching Ishhy Grenade cup. With blanks, an aluminum can cut out gas check and a tennis ball this thing makes people laugh.
JOHN COOK
08-11-2016, 06:58
I like the suggestion by Sportsdad. I tried using a 12 MM deep socket and and hand drill. Placed the (30:06) cases in a bowl to the left and torch in center, water to the right, lights off in shop place a a round in the socket (loose fit) heat to a light cherry red, tip socket and it falls in the water. No burnt fingers.
Works for me.
john
I think a lot of it has to do with the Enfield your loading for and the size of the chamber. One of my brass eaters is a 1944 Ishsy wire wrap. I suspect it's a post independence rebuild. Since its wire wrapped I've never taken the wood off to confirm this. The bore was imaculate and when slugged was like new. This was a Sarco 90s import per the man I bought it from. When it started eating Privi brass I found the case mouths were blowing out 5 to 6 thousands more than my other shooters, both No1 Mark III * and No 4 mark 1 and 1*s. A chamber cast confirmed what I was seeing. The case body is only slightly bigger 1 thousands than both my Lithgow Shooters I was comparing it to. The bullets neck is 5 thousands bigger than both Lithgows. A bore scope of the throat shows it to be long but in good shape.
So this rifle when the brass is annealed and neck sized only will start cracking necks at around the 6th reload. Basically because the neck is being so over worked. I'm using pulled surplus bullets and driving them at 2400, so the load is not tame but not super hot. Amazeinly the rifle is my best No1 mark Iii* shooter. At our local match it is the only No1 I've scored in the 170s with (out of 200 possible).
I've been told by two different smiths two different explanations. One...reamer out of spec as India struggled some with rifle production after the Brits left. Two...finish reamer out of spec....don't know who is right.
All my other Enfields( except for a 1915 Lithgow brass eater) I load 10 times (anneal/neck size) then I pitch them. Based on some of the other posts I might try and bump them up a couple more reloads.
I do have a matching Ishhy Grenade cup. With blanks, an aluminum can cut out gas check and a tennis ball this thing makes people laugh.
Yeah, I've concluded that an overly generous 1944 No. 4 Mk 1* chamber is the cause of split necks. It's the only rifle I shoot that collects soot around the necks of the fired cases. I'll continue to anneal the cases and watch for splits and just toss them into the recycling cans at the range if/when they occur without getting too excited about it. I was getting 3-4 reloads without annealing, maybe I can double that number now that I'm annealing the cases. I'm happy either way.
The rifle has about .250" loss of rifling in the throat so it has some wear but still shoots flat based 150 gr. soft points in good groups with a mild load of ball powder at 100 yards. I looked closely at the fired .303 cases and compared them to the fired .30-06 cases from a minty M1917 and equally minty 03-A3 (that were probably used for target practice) and see stretch marks around the heads and necks of the .303 cases but nothing on the .30-06 cases. Of course, the 1944 No. 4 was in active WW2 service for probably more than a year so whatever wear it has was earned. I checked out a 1943 No. 4 Mark 1* for a friend recently and it had .380" loss of rifling which is probably consistent for a rifle with two years service.
Merc
I like the suggestion by Sportsdad. I tried using a 12 MM deep socket and and hand drill. Placed the (30:06) cases in a bowl to the left and torch in center, water to the right, lights off in shop place a a round in the socket (loose fit) heat to a light cherry red, tip socket and it falls in the water. No burnt fingers.
Works for me.
john
Interesting. Thanks for the suggestion.
Merc
Interesting. Thanks for the suggestion.
Merc
If you are going to try this I'd suggest at least buying one bottle of 450 degree templac. Mark the base with it at least a 1/16th inch up, if the templac turn color before water submersion pitch the brass it is now unsafe to shoot. I can promise you on short cases like .223 if you heat the shoulder to cherry red no matter what shade of color the base will hit the 450 or higher mark if done in open air then water submerged. You might be able to get away with it on longer cases, but why risk it when one can confirm results with templac. Once you get the hang of it and proof it safe then you can do away with the templac if you want to. The method of leaving the base in a water bowl while annealing was done to prevent over annealing of the base. Sunray posted some good articles written by professionals on the topic. They are worth the read. An annealed case head on a high power rifle is not a good thing. Not trying to start a pissing match I just want people to be informed and safe.
If you are going to try this I'd suggest at least buying one bottle of 450 degree templac. Mark the base with it at least a 1/16th inch up, if the templac turn color before water submersion pitch the brass it is now unsafe to shoot. I can promise you on short cases like .223 if you heat the shoulder to cherry red no matter what shade of color the base will hit the 450 or higher mark if done in open air then water submerged. You might be able to get away with it on longer cases, but why risk it when one can confirm results with templac. Once you get the hang of it and proof it safe then you can do away with the templac if you want to. The method of leaving the base in a water bowl while annealing was done to prevent over annealing of the base. Sunray posted some good articles written by professionals on the topic. They are worth the read. An annealed case head on a high power rifle is not a good thing. Not trying to start a pissing match I just want people to be informed and safe.
I understand the dangers of annealing the whole case and fully intend to only anneal the neck. Thanks for your concern.
Merc
I understand the dangers of annealing the whole case and fully intend to only anneal the neck. Thanks for your concern.
Merc
They are worth the read. An annealed case head on a high power rifle is not a good thing. Not trying to start a pissing match I just want people to be informed and safe.
It is not only "not a good thing", it is a bad habit. And then I will say again, there are a few simple rules to annealing, this thread is 4 pages old and still there are no rules to annealing.
F. Guffey
AZshooter
01-24-2017, 06:34
I do pretty much the same thing, although I set a paint stirring stick across a large container full of water, after heating to cherry red, I tip the stirrer & they simultaneously dump into the water.
My circa mid 70's Lyman manual instructs to stand the unprimed brass in a pan of water at a depth of approx. one half the length (height?) of the brass. Heat case neck with torch until "cherry red", at which point immediately knock the brass over into the water with the tip of the torch. Immediately submerging the "cherry red" casing in cool water amounts to "quenching". This is the only annealing process I ever followed and it worked well for me.
1-12 INF (M)
03-18-2017, 05:13
Cherry red is 'way too hot. You're over 950 degrees at that point and your brass is ruined. If you heat the brass just to the point where it changes color to blue/black - that's fine. I use it for 7mm TCU and spin each case in a brass tube that's just a little bigger than the cartridge case in a hand-held drill. Here's a nice page on annealing. http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
milboltnut
03-21-2017, 11:13
no cherry red annealing. Anneal until you see a yellowish color... and put brass in metal pie plate with water just past the rim as you're annealing. Tip over each casing in water.
Not that it's necessary... but I put my cases in a LEE trimmer collet chucked up in my drill, and spin the cases as I heat them. Helps me to heat them evenly, and works well... for me anyway.
Yep, same here Paul. They come out as shown in Parashooter's photos.
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