Brass Problem

[JOHN COOK]

Attempting to size 30.06 down to .270 and finally 25.06. I have done this since 1968 prior to Remington going commercial with the 25.06 and never had a problem. I have some 2-3- year old rounds that don't show this problem. (I own a custom built 25.06 built on a 98 Mauser)

All the 30.06 has been cleaned, annealed , re-sized to 30.06 specs. I then proceed to the .270 die and this is where the problem shows up. The neck of the cartridge is reduced to .270 caliber,as it should, but at the point where the cartridge should start a slope upward (not quite to the datum line) I am getting a small belt or bulge. It appears to be about 1/64 of an inch (perhaps I could measure it.) wide. I can actually feel and see it. In looking at the the cartridge it appears it is not going completely all the way up in the .270 die. I am using a Lyman Press which I used for 30 years (no problems) The ram goes up and cams over, I have always done it this way. I loaded 150 rounds of .270 three months ago and had no problem. I also loaded 200 rounds of 30.06 for my 03A3, no problems.

I am using 1950 - 1960 LC brass and some commercial R & P brass and a few Winchester .270 new brass just run of the mill brass. I have broke down each die and made sure they were clean (I use case wax for lube) no wax build up, no nothing. I am using RCBS case holder. It makes no difference which brass I use I get the same results. Thought about using a thinner case holder ( thinking the case may advance further into the .270 die). The thought evened crossed my mind to have a local machine shop remove a couple 1/1000 off the end of the die. I don't know if that would help the cartridge advance further before it cammed over or not. . Dies are all RCBS.

SOMETHING ATTACKED ME!!!!!!!!
:eusa_wall:
I am at a lost why this just started happening. Any ideas or comment would be appreciated. I respectively request we don't get into a PIZZING contest on this..

john in SC

[p246]

So if I'm reading this right you have changed nothing, are using the same equipment, and this problem just rear its head...correct

[p246]

Google or Bing Long Range Hunting 30-06 to 25-06 getting donuts. 3 page thread on the topic. Basically he adjusted his die off the shell holder and the donut went away. Good Luck.

[Cosine26]

John,
I do not know why this just started happening. When I had a 243 Winchester I was making 243 brass out of 7.62 GI LC brass. About 95% of the time it worked OK; but occasionally I would get a case that came out as described. Of course I was using only one resize as I went directly from 7.62 to 243. I never solved the problem but since I have a practically unlimited supply of 7.62 brass, I just ignored the problem and threw away the distorted cases. The other cases worked just fine. Guess that does not help much.
FWIW

[Sunray]

"...getting a small belt or bulge..." Sizer die has loosen and moved down. How is anybody's guess.

[Mickey Christian]

Are the brass trimmed to proper length? Not too long?

[JOHN COOK]

I'm pressed for time at the moment, will answer questions this evening, thanks, I'm going to skip .270 die some one e mailed me and said they resize in 30:06 and go straight to 25:06.??? I stated all were RCBS, mistake, .270 is an old PACIFIC (circa 1950s).

john

[JOHN COOK]

Answers to Questions:
p246: No changes to set up...

Sunray: Die has not moved, it is down as far as it will go, moved die up and "donut" forms about 3/4 of neck. I think the case needs to go further into the die..

Mickey : cases have been trimmed and sized Spec: calls for 2.494 I trimmed to 2.488 (per LYMAN)

I annealed 6 cases of different make and year (year pertaining to LC brass) sized them and trimmed. Ran them through 30:06 die, no expander button, skipped the .270 die and went directly to the 25:06 and it apparently solved the problem. I can see a point where it seems to be trying to form the "donut" but I can't feel it or measure any difference. I immediately selected 3 more cases and followed same procedure, except I ran them through the .270 die prior going to 25:06 die. HELLO, there the "donut" appeared before going to the 25:06 die. I guess this is my problem. I don't know why this happens because I have always used the .270 and then went to 25:06. I stated I had loaded some .270 awhile back but failed to say I used once fired .270 cases, no problems.

Thanks for the input. I'll try some more this PM and see what happens.

john in SC

[fguffey]

All the 30.06 has been cleaned, annealed , re-sized to 30.06 specs. I then proceed to the .270 die and this is where the problem shows up. The neck of the cartridge is reduced to .270 caliber,as it should, but at the point where the cartridge should start a slope upward (not quite to the datum line) I am getting a small belt or bulge. It appears to be about 1/64 of an inch (perhaps I could measure it.) wide. I can actually feel and see it. In looking at the the cartridge it appears it is not going completely all the way up in the .270 die. I am using a Lyman Press which I used for 30 years (no problems) The ram goes up and cams over, I have always done it this way. I loaded 150 rounds of .270 three months ago and had no problem. I also loaded 200 rounds of 30.06 for my 03A3, no problems.

john in SC

Going from 30/06 to 25/06 is a matter of necking the 30/06 case down, it is not a case forming operation. Part of the 30/06 shoulder becomes part of the 25/06 neck. As always there can be artifacts of the parent case that can be seen and or felt. The datum for all three cases is .375" or 3/8". When sizing a 30/06, 270 or 25/06 the die should make it to the shell holder. It is possible to increases the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist singing by grinding the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die; I don't, I have never found it necessary.

There are times the case wins, other times the press wins.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

Brass too long: When necking a case down the case increases in length, some believe the neck gets thicker and or thinner. The 270 Winchester case is .041" longer than the 30/06 and 25/06.

F. Guffey

[Tuna]

A few years ago I was having a problem with my reloading some 7x57 brass and some 30-06. Very similar to what your having happen. My press had been set up for 25 years on the same heavy bench. Turns out that after 25 years there was a very small bit of flexing in the bench even through the bolts were still tight. I got a piece of 1/4 inch steel plate and set up my press on it and bolted all to the bench and the problem disappeared.

[JOHN COOK]

Thanks Tuna, I'll check that out SAT> morn......Could be, I just don't know.. I'll keep trying until I find out whats going on..

john in SC

[fguffey]

Thanks Tuna, .. I'll keep trying until I find out whats going on..

john in SC

The case body for all three cases is the same; the shoulder angle is the same for all three cases.

I would suggest you remove the sizing plug/primer punch assemble from the dies while neck sizing your cases. There is no reason to have a failure to size the shoulder/neck juncture on any of the cases; when finished you will be required to run the sizing ball into the case neck to size it up to 25/06. Not all sizing plugs were designed to increase the inside neck diameter, in the old days the sizing plug was designed be pulled from inside the case out and not pushed from the outside in.

F. Guffey

[JOHN COOK]

Tuna, you win the Cigar.... I started this A.M. and reviewed everything that I had done or not done to create this problem. I have a Lyman Press (turret type)
and it will hold 6 dies. While cleaning up my shop I noticed the press was sort of funky looking. I took it apart and repainted the red turret. Cleaned it all up and lubed the areas that needed it. (first time ever) I put it back together and started sizing the next day. Problem started.. Read your response about your press and and I noticed that bolts holding my press were not loose, but had some give. Tightened everything up and immediately felt the difference and saw some difference. I then ran a few more cases through the .270 die and still had a small donut . Turret felt like it might not be tight enough, took a 1- 1/8 inch box end and snugged it to where the turret would not rotate by hand. Ran a few more through the .270 and EUREKA everything is measuring what it supposed to be, no donut.

F Guffy: the sizing plug was out of all the dies except the 25:06 die , the problem was occurring before it got to the 25:06 die. I use a Lyman Universal punch to de-prime, I agree there should not have been a reason to have a failure to size the shoulder/neck juncture. But there was and I have to believe it was caused by a loose mounted press and my failure to tighten the nut properly on the turret. Other than that, I have no other explanation. I processed 100 cases this afternoon not a problem anywhere.
I guess my dies are the old type, they size when they are pulled out. (Circa 1968 RCBS purchased when rifle was made)..

Thanks everyone, Tuna, you are my HERO (for today LOL)

john in SC

[p246]

Hats off to Tuna:headbang:

[fguffey]

Tuna, you win the Cigar.... .
I guess my dies are the old type, they size when they are pulled out. (Circa 1968 RCBS purchased when rifle was made)..

john in SC

I have RCBS dies that go back to the letter code days, letter code dies came to an end about 6 years before 1968; I also have dies with date codes. For me that is not a problem but I do not have a set of dies that size the case when they are pulled out unless you are referring to sizing the neck when the sizing plug is pulled through the neck when the ram is lowered.

And now RCBS has gone back to letter codes on dies. When my shell holder does not make it to the bottom of the die when sizing a case the case does not get full length sized. When I want to know if the case is returned to minimum length I measure the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die with a feeler gage. When the shell holder does not make it to the bottom of the die I stop and determine why it is being held off. No matter how loose the bolt are I have no problem grabbing the back of the press with one hand and operating the handle with the other.

F. Guffey

[JOHN COOK]

I'm sorry I misled you Guffy, I was referring to the neck being re sized as the sizing button exits the die. I guess I am not literate enough to express myself so that everyone can understand what I am speaking about. I'll try harder next time.

I am not familiar with RCBS letter codes. I don't think I need feeler gauges at the present time. I see you don't care if the bolts on your press are loose or not, you just get a handful of press and carry on. O K if that works for you, good. I don't think my press was designed to work with loose bolts.

SO MOTE IT BE.....
john

[fguffey]

I'm sorry I misled you Guffy, I was referring to the neck being re sized as the sizing button exits the die. I guess I am not literate enough to express myself so that everyone can understand what I am speaking about. I'll try harder next time. I am not familiar with RCBS letter codes. I don't think I need feeler gauges at the present time. I see you don't care if the bolts on your press are loose or not, you just get a handful of press and carry on. O K if that works for you, good. I don't think my press was designed to work with loose bolts.

SO MOTE IT BE.....
john

Don't mention it, you are welcome. To put it another way, a reloader can use both hands on the handle; I suggest the table and press be tied down when doing so. Or they can use on hand on the handle and the other to support the press. And then when it comes to dies that are old and or new and everything in between; I only have one set of directions because my dies and presses have threads. And then there are presses, I have both; I have cam over presses and I have non cam over presses. My cam over presses are bump presses. My Rock Chucker presses are not cam over presses because they do not bump.

F. Guffey