Is my .45/70 a safe shooter?

[Merc]

I bought an 1885 Model 1873 .45/70 Trapdoor several years ago for about $250. The stock is a little rough but it seems to be in nice mechanical shape and I immediately thought about shooting it, so I bought a box of modern black powder .45/70 cal. cartridges. Well, the Trapdoor still hanging on the wall and the box of ammo is still in the safe. I own several WW1 and 2 rifles that I enjoy shooting occasionally but I haven't taken the Trapdoor to the range yet.

I can see that the Trapdoor's rifling is crisp, the bore is clean and the action still works well. The only thing that seems worn is the hinge which is a little wobbly when door is open but is solid once locked into place. My problem is basically a lack of knowledge of the Trapdoor. What are the rules that would determine if it's a mechanically sound rifle. Is a wobbly hinge unsafe? What else could make it unsafe to shoot?

Thanks,

Merc

[Sportsdad60]

When you say "modern black powder cartidges" are you talking about smokeless cartridges or Black Powder "Cowboy" loads? The latter is made for the lower pressures that these old trapdoors can endure. You do not want to use off the shelf 45-70 Gov't loads, they exceed the pressures the old trapdoor can handle.

If the hinge pin seems slighlty wobbly that's a normal condition and if the breech block locks tight then it should be okay to shoot BUT, spending $40 or so to have a gunsmith take a look would reduce the risks of damage not only to your trapdoor but your health as well.

[psteinmayer]

Ok, I was always under the impression that the Winchester and Remington factory 45/70 (Remington uses a 405 gr jacketed bullet while Winchester uses a 300 gr jacketed bullet) were safe for Trapdoors. I've fired a few boxes of these through my "Bannerman" 1873 rifle with absolutely no problems. If I'm incorrect in this, please let me know!

There are other loads which are loaded extremely hot and are for modern lever action rifles that handle considerably higher pressures - I believe these are from Black Hills or some similar company.

[Sportsdad60]

They are not safe to shoot in trapdoors and they HURT~! Trust me on this one. :)

Before I started reloading I was using Powder River Cartridge Low pressure smokeless loads (405 gr) and they work phenomenally well.
So much that I duplicated their load when I started reloading. Now I am pretty much reloading just black powder for the 1883-cartouched trapdoor but the 26 grs of AA5744 topped with a Oregon Laser cast 405 grain bullet is what Powder River uses for a low pressure load.

You can buy a box of 20 from Powder river, they cost about $1.85 a piece. (I reload the same thing for .54 cents a piece )

[Merc]

When you say "modern black powder cartidges" are you talking about smokeless cartridges or Black Powder "Cowboy" loads? The latter is made for the lower pressures that these old trapdoors can endure. You do not want to use off the shelf 45-70 Gov't loads, they exceed the pressures the old trapdoor can handle.

If the hinge pin seems slighlty wobbly that's a normal condition and if the breech block locks tight then it should be okay to shoot BUT, spending $40 or so to have a gunsmith take a look would reduce the risks of damage not only to your trapdoor but your health as well.

The box of ammo I bought but never used is made by Goex. I'll list everything that's printed on the box:

Goex
Black Dawge Cartridges
Traditional Black Powder Ammunition
Center Fire Cartridges
45-70, 350 gr., RNFP Black Powder

Merc

[blackhawknj]

Black powder and lead bullets only in my TDs, one should be gentle to that 140 year old metal. And there's something about that big white cloud.

[Sportsdad60]

The box of ammo I bought but never used is made by Goex. I'll list everything that's printed on the box:

Goex
Black Dawge Cartridges
Traditional Black Powder Ammunition
Center Fire Cartridges
45-70, 350 gr., RNFP Black Powder

Merc

There is no doubt that they can only get so much Goex into the case so this should be a safe load to shoot. Note that the Carbine was meant to shoot those 350gr bullets what I've been told.

Personally I did NOT have mine inspected by a gunsmith because I knew the previous owner and I knew what he shot through it. And the fact that it was in immaculate condition.

If I bought a trapdoor from someone I didn't know, I'd have it inspected by a reputable gunsmith. But that's just me...

[Sportsdad60]

Black powder and lead bullets only in my TDs, one should be gentle to that 140 year old metal. And there's something about that big white cloud.

I have shot over 1000 rounds since 2014 with smokeless low pressure loads in my old trapdoor. Just recently started BP loads. No issues whatsoever and the pressure is well under 18,000 with smokeless powder if you load them Cowboy. There are purists though.."Thou shalt NOT use smokeless powder"....And that's okay.

I agree the BP loads sure are a hoot to shoot, and they're an attention getter too. :)

[Merc]

Sportsdad,

Thanks for the info.

Merc

[Merc]

There is no doubt that they can only get so much Goex into the case so this should be a safe load to shoot. Note that the Carbine was meant to shoot those 350gr bullets what I've been told.

Personally I did NOT have mine inspected by a gunsmith because I knew the previous owner and I knew what he shot through it. And the fact that it was in immaculate condition.

If I bought a trapdoor from someone I didn't know, I'd have it inspected by a reputable gunsmith. But that's just me...

Thought about taking the Trapdoor to the range this spring. I want to be sure that everything goes right and I don't cause any damage. Even though the 350 gr bullets I bought were made for the carbine, there shouldn't be any issues shooting them in the rifle, correct? What's the recommended bullet weight for the rifle?

[p246]

The other down side to using jacketed bullets in a TD even at safe pressures is extra wear on the barrel. Like posted above I cast some pure lead and add a little tin. Mine is a little over bore so I powder coat and bake then resize at .460. If I try to use .458 rounds they go sideways through the target (real big hole when a 500 grain bullet prints sideways. .460s do just fine. I need to get some more loaded up as I recently burned off the rest of the stash40008[/QUOTE]

[Dick Hosmer]

To clarify some of the statements made here:

1. The original 1873 service rifle load was 70gr Fg with a 405gr bullet (changed to 500gr. in 1881) in a 2.1" case

2. The original 1873 service carbine load was 55gr. Fg (same case - void filled with wads) with a 405 grain bullet

3. The "long-range" rifle load (using same action, but different (2.4") case and chamber, was 80gr. Fg with the 500gr. bullet (produced severe recoil, but no damage to guns)

4. The Black Dawge ammo should be perfectly safe in any rifle or carbine in good condition - it was specifically made as a light load for the older guns.

5. The generic "modern" 405gr jacketed smokeless loads by Winchester, Remington, etc. are loaded to trapdoor pressure levels, though they are seldom the best choice for a number of reasons (cost, accuracy, etc.)

6. What is NOT safe in TDs is ANY ammunition labelled "For use in Winchester 1886 or Marlin 1895" or "High Velocity" etc. For many years such ammo was frequently loaded with 300gr. bullets, but that is no longer a safe way to determine what should not be used in older guns. Of course, any "gun show reloads" should be avoided unless you KNOW the seller.

7. The TD action does not depend on the strength of the hinge pin to remain closed, and in fact arms have been safely fired with the pin removed. That is NOT to say that such should be attempted, or that a high degree of slop is a good thing, but a slight wobble when the block is open is not a crippling defect.

[psteinmayer]

Thanks very much for clearing that up Dick. As always, you ARE the voice of reason where TDs are concerned! I'm glad to know that my past shooting with the Remington ammo was not dangerous. If I do any future shooting, I'll look into BP loads and reloads (I have some brass available).

[CATT]

Merc, Ultramax makes a 405 gr cartridge that I have shot 60 rounds of, it appears to be stuffed with 15.9 gr of Trail Boss powder, shoots good out of my 1884 Carbine. I also have someRem 405gr loads that are truly stuffed with 55.5 gr of BP. These actually shoot better than the Ultramax in my Carbine FWIW

[AZshooter]

Merc, Ultramax makes a 405 gr cartridge that I have shot 60 rounds of, it appears to be stuffed with 15.9 gr of Trail Boss powder, shoots good out of my 1884 Carbine. I also have someRem 405gr loads that are truly stuffed with 55.5 gr of BP. These actually shoot better than the Ultramax in my Carbine FWIW

Hodgdon's lists Trail Boss loads with the 405 gr. bullet at 12.0 grains at 24,500 CUP for velocity @ 971 FPS and Max at 13.0 grains at 25,600 CUP for 1007 FPS.

15.9 looks to be beyond what I'd be comfortable shooting in a trapdoor. Trail Boss looks to produce the lowest velocity at the highest pressure & what I've read from other experienced shooters is that Trail Boss is a poor choice for reloading trapdoor ammo. OTOH, 40.0 grains H4895 gets you 1496 fps at 14,900 CUP.

[Dick Hosmer]

Are you SURE about that H4895 load? Just does NOT seem right to me - sounds like something you'd put in a Krag, behind a bullet of half the weight!!

[CATT]

Did a recheck and you were correct in saying 15.9 was too much powder it was actually 11.9 of Trail Boss, my mistake.

Hodgdon's lists Trail Boss loads with the 405 gr. bullet at 12.0 grains at 24,500 CUP for velocity @ 971 FPS and Max at 13.0 grains at 25,600 CUP for 1007 FPS.

15.9 looks to be beyond what I'd be comfortable shooting in a trapdoor. Trail Boss looks to produce the lowest velocity at the highest pressure & what I've read from other experienced shooters is that Trail Boss is a poor choice for reloading trapdoor ammo. OTOH, 40.0 grains H4895 gets you 1496 fps at 14,900 CUP.

[Dick Hosmer]

Re-checks are good!

BUT, it is still the H4895 load that has me worried if a beginner gets hold of it! That is at least Krag, even mild 1903, territory so far as I recall.

[alfajim]

Re-checks are good!

BUT, it is still the H4895 load that has me worried if a beginner gets hold of it! That is at least Krag, even mild 1903, territory so far as I recall.

Dick my Hodgdon book shows for a 405gr cast that 48.0gr of H4895 gives 1645 velocity at 18.900CUP. I think better loads would be with H4198 and or IMR 4198 slightly less velocity and lower CUP with H4198.

Jim

[kragluver]

Be careful on the Hodgdon website (not sure on the book). Some of the loads they list are very hot. I shoot a lot of .45-70 with SR-4759 and IMR-3031 in modern lever actions and in the Sharps. I would recommend the Lyman book. It lists lots of bullet and powder combinations for all three levels of .45-70.

[Dick Hosmer]

Dick my Hodgdon book shows for a 405gr cast that 48.0gr of H4895 gives 1645 velocity at 18.900CUP. I think better loads would be with H4198 and or IMR 4198 slightly less velocity and lower CUP with H4198.

Jim

Thanks for looking that up, clearly I was off, but better to err on the side of caution! :headbang:

[alfajim]

Yea some of the loads are rediclus for a trapdoor most are just only for the later Winchester and Marlin lever guns.
The 3rd edition of my lyman books loads are just as bad for trapdoors 20,000+ cup a bit to high for an older well used one.
I could probably use some of those hot loads in the trapdoor I'm building with the "BRAND NEW' barrel and receiver I veery luckily picked up from e-bay, yes it is just beautiful, perfect, never used from day made in 1884 brand new. It needs some minor repair work to fix the damage done when sold with a torch simple sleeve job at the mouth of the chamber.

Jim

[alfajim]

I read on one of the forums that it not the pressure so much that is bad for the trapdoor and other older actions with smokeless over black as the big differences in the pressure rise and rise time?

Jim

[kragluver]

I've come to the realization that there is no good reason to really hot-rod the .45-70... even though you "can" in a modern rifle. For me personally, a 350-405 gr bullet at 1600 fps is plenty much. They are no fun to shoot beyond that. I have shot some 350 gr bullets out of my Marlin 1895 pushing 2100 fps based on the Hodgdon website loads. The recoil was intense to say the least. A 350-400 gr bullet at a sedate 1200-1300 fps is much more pleasant to shoot and will kill anything walking in North America. More velocity just means more recoil in that cartridge. You will never flatten its rainbow trajectory to make sense in putting up with the extreme recoil.