Picked up a 1983 M94

[Sportsdad60]

Never fired (until me, I have a no virgins policy). No box, no real collector value (19,999 made) $729.00.
Now I have a new cartridge to load for, 38-55. :)

https://photos.smugmug.com/Winchester-94-Crazy-Horse-1983/n-krr8RF/i-2VNRtQx/0/L/i-2VNRtQx-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Winchester-94-Crazy-Horse-1983/n-krr8RF/i-2sdRDG2/0/L/i-2sdRDG2-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Winchester-94-Crazy-Horse-1983/n-krr8RF/i-Np7Zg5m/0/L/i-Np7Zg5m-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Winchester-94-Crazy-Horse-1983/n-krr8RF/i-jRJjZzQ/0/L/i-jRJjZzQ-L.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Winchester-94-Crazy-Horse-1983/n-krr8RF/i-QqrzfTc/0/L/i-QqrzfTc-L.jpg

[dave]

No collector value but you paid the price, should have box , paper work and unfired for that money. At least here in MI!

[Sportsdad60]

I paid $129 more for it 33 years later. ($600 in 1983) And I'm good with that.

"Blue Book of Gun Values" has it listed at $895-100% condition (with box and unfired)
"Gun Digest" 20-14 has it listed at $800-100% condition, again with box.

I think $729 wasn't too much but in Michigan, perhaps the dollar goes further there. ;)

[Sunray]

"Blue Book of Gun Values" is a collection of averages from all over the U.S. with no regard for local supply and demand.
A 'Crazy Horse', sealed in the original box with all the papers, is worth $550 according to the Winchester Collectors site. Has no collector value because collectors don't really want 'em. Absolutely not out of the box. Unless they're Winchester collectors, don't have one and really, really want one. Highly unlikely anybody'd pay $895 for one.(there's that exact rifle on Gunbroker auction ending in 4 hours with the box asking $1295 and no bids at all.) Even out of the box it's worth the same as any other Win 94.
Some Commemoratives are worth far less than what you paid for that one. A Nebraska Centennial from 1966 is worth $100. Likely sell for a lot more as a plain old shooter Win 94. And .38-55 ammo isn't real easy to find. Midway shows Buffalo Bore(on sale at Cabela's for $45 per 20), Black Hills and Jamison only starting at $33.86 per 20.

[Sportsdad60]

$550 off Win Collectors is "Original price" as in 1983. I thought that is how it's read....
These are selling prices when they were released!
http://winchestercollector.org/winchester-commemoratives/

Anyway, $550 in 1983 would cost $1319.65 in 2015.
What cost $729 in 2015 would cost $303.83 in 1983.
Make sense? :)

Yes, not a collector, it has indeed de-valuated with regard to inflation of the US dollar.It's why it's a shooter to me. :)
For the record, tracking these commemorative prices for this particular rifle in the past 10 months, this was a great deal. The last one that sold on GB was $850 with a box. I dun need no stinkin' box for a shooter. :)

[dave]

I have to agree with your box attitude! I know a Win collector who buys these as shooters (no box, papers) He will not pay over 500 bucks for them, has gotten quite a few. But I also think that 'when you have shot one, you have shot them all'. I have shot one or two of each type in my collection but that's about it, some never any more (Mauser military 98's).

[Griff Murphey]

I put a surplus butt stock on mine and pulled off the studs. They. Come away from the firend easily with finger pressure. Good, easy shooter, light and fast handling. Bought several boxes of ammo many moons ago, have hunted it - took a pig once. Never bought any dies. I think it uses an odd diameter bullet.

[Sportsdad60]

Two recent gunbroker sales for $795 min. I think $729 was a good price that I was willing to pay.

I reload, so here is my experience over the past 48 hrs.

Do I care if anyone cares about this post? No I don't, but now it's part of Internet Bullet Science should anyone else want to reload for .38-55. This is my experience and mine alone. You're mileage may vary. Load at your own risk. :)

I went with my trusty AA 5744 smokeless powder to start. I Hate the cost of 5744 but I love the accuracy with 405gr bullet/26 gr of 5744 in a 45-70 loads!

I Started with Lyman's suggestion (validated by other load data) with min load of 20 gr. Max load was 23 gr but I stopped at 22 gr.

Bullet:
Missouri
#1 Ballard - Hi-Tek
.379 Diameter
245 Grain RNFP
Brinell 18
For The High Plains
Hi-Tek 2-Extreme Coating

Brass:
38-55 Starline "short" (2.080)
Primer:
CCI Lg Mag Primer

OAL: 2.535-2.40

Took about 1 hr min to prep and set up the new RCBS 38-55 dies.

Checked the first 6 rounds for loading ability and cycling action (facing the Game Preserve just in case a primer went off and shot something, hmmm, like an elk or deer.)

Observations:

Walls are extremely thin. One must not use the same primed brass starter more than 3 times over when doing a 'final powder measure' on the AP press as the case edge gets 'loose'. I use a small glass dish to cycle the Powder drop but do one final check with the casing....cannot do it more than three cycles. This brass is essentially "REALLY long .357 magnum straight wall" :)

Sexy looking round next to the .45-70 :) Sort of a sister on a diet! It's very similar to .30-30 but with no neck down, and a bullet weight much heavier, so much that when it arrives at the intended destination it will say "Hello, I'm here a little slower the 30-30, but I'm going to knock you on your butt".

Coated bullets seat nicely although there is a slight case buldging due to .379 bullet. I think .378 cast is going to be perfect when I get to black powder for this caliber.

Racked and shacked smoothly on the Winchester action although I will have to grow my right thumb nail about 1/8 of an inch longer when reloading. :)

Pic 1:
Bullet left, first dummy load, bullet seated too deep, too much crimp.
Bullet right, 2nd attempt, seated good, and a kiss crimp.(My definition of a Kiss Crimp is "Bullet doesn't move when dropped from 2 feet or push with 25 lbs")

Pic 2:
Comparison to .50 caliber and .45-70 with 500 gr bullet.

Pic 3:
First 6 (capacity of mag) in lowest charge.

Pic 4: 21 gr and 22 gr. I made more of the 22 gr based on my gut feeling and reading other's recipes and range reports (the few and far between they are for this old caliber)

Pic 5: 38/55 245 gr bullet next to a 500 gr 45/70 bullet.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Reloading/i-Dg5bvkL/0/M/172433_b2f9feead98505cf1450fd3cb4317755-M.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Reloading/i-gw4MTd5/0/M/172434_3fad88e3b76785738fe0e44219aca707-M.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Reloading/i-Sg9tcX9/0/M/172435_653e63e0d5d3ac88d069ac59d24dbe61-M.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Reloading/i-SsP5NPj/0/M/172436_617f64d72062f212fcc34090e0ec77b9-M.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Reloading/i-tKs6cR9/0/M/20160827_183518-M.jpg

[Sportsdad60]

Result:

Short story if you don't want to read further.
The New Winchester 94 performed flawlessly and the BP loads were the most accurate and consistent on the Chrono.
/end story.

And now for the REST of the story (RIP Paul Harvey)

I went through 3 powder types with 3 load weights and validated velocities with these new 38/55 and my other 45/70 loads.
The Caldwell Precision El Cheapo $56 Chrono was working fine, recording velocity on the little reader window from 15 feet away but my tablet was not recording through their app.
Half way through the shooting session I tried my Samsung smart phone and viola! It needs internet connection to work. DOH! It also validated all 3 45/70 loads in 3 different bullet wts and powder types. JUST where I expected the velocities to be! This was the best $56 spent for 'piece of mind' for my old Springfield Trapdoor.

All shots were low (expected) and left of target (adjusted front sight when I returned home) I was looking for velocities and groups only.

The 38/55 powders/Grs-Bolded was best consistent velocity and MOA
AA5744 20/21/22.5 gr -Avg Velocity 1456 pfs for best load
AA2200 24/25 gr -Avg Velocity 1560 fps for best load. NOTE: Velocities all over the place from 1414 to 1585. Probably uneven pressure when cooking off?
Pyrodex RS Select -45 by volume (31 gr) -Avg Velocity 1267 fps. This was another that had velocities ranges from 1194 to 1275 but had the tightest group (See picture below)

Pic 1: 25 yd target and Chrono, looking down range. The angle here looks like I'm going to shoot the Chrono! :)
Pic 2: Black powder grouping (best) with lowest average velocity at 25 yards.
Pic 3: wads (white) used with BP loads. I used a drop tube to fit as much powder as the casing could handle without over compressing, which is 45 by volume (31 grs) Then topped it with a wad.
Pic 4: 40 more ready for the range today! Please note the primer colors, I had a good primer strike but failure to fire on a Lg Rifle Federal so this first batch I switched to Magnum Lg Rifle CCI.

https://photos.smugmug.com/38-55/i-T3z7494/0/O/20160902_173508_resized.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/38-55/i-nQw4smM/0/O/20160902_184143_resized.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/38-55/i-zvM7KP9/0/O/20160902_191409_resized.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/38-55/i-63B6xpt/0/O/20160902_193651_resized.jpg



https://photos.smugmug.com/38-55/i-RhBvRcF/0/O/38-55.jpg

[Sportsdad60]

And, a short 12 second video of black powder heaven in 38/55.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUfWtc-CJlU

Where the .45/70 goes THUMP at 100 yds, the "girl on a diet" 38/55 goes THWAP! Elk and Black Bear indeed! :)

[Darreld Walton]

Shot my first bull elk, age twelve, on a "party" hunt in Idaho, 1966, with an ancient Marlin top eject Model 1881, 38-55 with my Dad taking the second bull with the same rifle. Used the old Remington 255 gr. factory load, hit the bull at approximately 125 yards, through the left shoulder. The bullet fell onto the ground when we pulled the hide off the right shoulder. Still weighed 239 grains. I still have that bullet.
I inherited Dad's .375 Big Bore after he passed, and in order to avoid catastrophic confusion, I let my last 38-55 go down the road, (a rebarreled, refinished 1905 mf'd. 1894 Winchester rifle) and gave all the ammunition I had to one of my little Brothers, who got Dad's Marlin.
Nice rifle! Have fun!