Has Anybody Heard of This Rifle?

[usmc69]

Springfield
1903
30-06
Serial # 355979
Sub Target
1 of 300
$1199.99

A friend saw this in a gun shop near his home. Any ideas as to which if any 03 it may be?

[louis]

This is working off my memory but I believe they were mounted on artillery pieces. Not sure what type of artillery but they didn't have a stock. But they were removed at a later time and converted back to rifles. Now like I said I'm going by memory but maybe someone has a better explanation. I believe they were stamped as 1903-A2

[m1903rifle]

Not listed in SRS so it might be hard to prove unless there is a list of them somewhere:

355973 04/18/31 USMC
356132 12/31/29 AMERICAN TRP SHANGHAI VOL CORPS

[louis]

Here it is. Go to 1903.com look up 10 oddball 03 variants and not only is it listed but there is also a photo of the marked receiver.

[usmc69]

Thanks for the info. Will pass this along.

[Ironlip]

Here it is. Go to 1903.com look up 10 oddball 03 variants and not only is it listed but there is also a photo of the marked receiver.

Louis, I went to 1903.com and got a company called Weingarten that manufactures jewelry and insignia, some of it military, but I can't find anything about 1903's. Am I just not searching it properly?

[Rick the Librarian]

I tried it and got the link all right:

http://m1903.com/odd1903/

[Ironlip]

I tried it and got the link all right:

http://m1903.com/odd1903/

AH HAH! Got to have the m in front of 1903. I remember these guys. Great site! Thanks Rick

[louis]

Thanks for fixing that Rick

[butlersrangers]

Maybe this model 1903 Springfield was altered for use on a Cumming's Sub Target Gun Machine?

Brophy's, "The Springfield 1903 Rifles", shows this system/device, which was a 'shooting simulator' in use before and during WW1. It was used on adapted Krags, Lee-Enfields, and 1903 Springfields.

"Sub Target" refers to a miniature target that was needle punched by the apparatus, while the adapted rifle was aimed and 'dry-fired' at a 2nd distant target. (The expensive, $800 plus, training machine worked kind of like a pantograph).

The machines used in the U. S. used a mechanical/cable linkage. The machines used by Britain and Canada used a battery, trigger activated switch, and solenoid.

These machines were later simplified and eliminated by the use of compact devices that did not require permanently altering and destroying the usefulness of a rifle.

37339373403734137342

[butlersrangers]

Sub Target Device - First photos shows a Krag barrel that once had the fixtures mounted for a sub target gun machine and stock alteration necessary. Last photo shows cheaper more compact system that came into use.

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[Rick the Librarian]

I've got a box of 30-40 rounds which were designed to be fired from a sub-caliber Krag through a 3" seacoast gun. As my interest also lies in coast artillery, I found it interesting.

[Kragrifle]

I was fortunate to have acquired a Krag rifle with the mounting fixture attached. I have never seen one of the machines but would love to find one someday.

[butlersrangers]

To state the obvious, the "Sub Target Gun Machine" and a "Sub Caliber device" are entirely different items with different purposes. (The sub caliber device attached to an artillery piece to allow cheap artillery training and practice with rifle ammo).

The OP mentioned "sub target", which suggests a rifle fitted for use on the Cumming's Sub Target Gun Machine. This system used no ammo. It did allow the 'Operator' to freely hold and support a partially counter-balanced rifle and hone his sight picture and trigger pull skills. The machine held a miniature or 'sub target' that was aligned with a larger distant target. The Operator/"Shooter" went through the action of 'Dry Firing' at the distant target. The consistency of his 'mock shots' was recorded (and scored) by pin pricks through the Sub Target.

'Kragrifle', it would be very interesting to see photos of your Krag rifle with the attached fixtures. This 'shooting simulator'' is often shown in blurry pictures in some classic Arms Books. I imagine many readers have often not understood or confused devices.

I too would love to see one of the machines. Hundreds were made in the U. S. and under license by Wilkinson in Great Britain.
Prior to 1920, they were all over the World in military academies, military schools, New York Public Schools, and on some Royal Navy Ships.

I'm sure in some basement or scrapyard one is gathering dust and rusting. It has probably been mistaken for an Industrial Machine.

I doubt there is anyone alive, who ever got to use one. It would be great with increased awareness, if one came to light and was restored.

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[Kragrifle]

Besides the target device I have 4 different Krag sub caliber devices. I need to figure out how to load photos.

[Fred]

This is a Neat thread!

[Rick the Librarian]

Here's a picture of the "rifle" (coincidentally a M1903) the Krag sub-caliber rifle used to work:

37362

[louis]

Great photo Rick. Did you take it and where is this located?

[Rick the Librarian]

373643736537366My friend took it. It is located at Fort Casey State Park, on Whidbey Island, WA. I give tours. They have four coast artillery weapons (two 10" and two 3") that were brought over from the Philippines in the late 1960s. Ironically, the original 3" gun barrels were sent to Corregidor in 1933.

The one picture shows me giving a tour to terminal insomnia patients, providing my usual 100% cure rate! :banana100:

[butlersrangers]

Neat pictures Rick!

You should check the 'bowel(s)' of the installation and see if there is a dusty 'sub-target gun machine' hidden in a closet.

[louis]

Thanks for the photos and the info. Great stuff.

[Redleg0811]

Rick gives a great tour. Thanks again for taking the time to show us around. Guess you showed a coworker and his family around. They have 8 or 10 kids.

Martin

[Rick the Librarian]

The pleasure was all mine, Martin!! Stop by again!

[butlersrangers]

It would be nice if the OP, (usmc69), would come back, respond, and provide more information. Most of us are still curious about the "sub target Springfield" his friend saw in a shop.

Is it a 1903 Springfield Rifle altered for: sub-target Shooting Simulator or sub-caliber Artillery Practice??? (or none of the above)!

[usmc69]

It would be nice if the OP, (usmc69), would come back, respond, and provide more information. Most of us are still curious about the "sub target Springfield" his friend saw in a shop.

Is it a 1903 Springfield Rifle altered for: sub-target Shooting Simulator or sub-caliber Artillery Practice??? (or none of the above)!


I was asking a question for a friend. All the information that I provided was what he had provided me. He does not have pictures (beyond his capabilities). He was provided the info from here and has decided this thing is not his cup of tea. The shop is in Erie, PA. I think the Gander Mountain there. If anyone is close by and wants to look let me know and I will find out for sure.

[butlersrangers]

Thanks for putting things in additional context.

[Kurt]

The pleasure was all mine, Martin!! Stop by again!

Rick, you have a rough life! :)

I've spent weeks in the past on Whidbey, mostly taking kids down to the soccer camp and one nieces wedding. It reminds me of the years spent on Biorka Island off Sitka, similar gun emplacements, guns long gone of course. I don't think all that many know of the effort that went into coastal defense on all the islands.

Kurt

[musketshooter]

I have an A2. The serial number is 1373913.
There is an adapter sleeve on the barrel just ahead of the receiver ring. The barrel date is SA 2-42 so I surmise that it was rebuilt for regular issue there. It is not listed in the DCM sales records but I would not expect to find it there. There is a huge gap in that serial number range.

[Rick the Librarian]

Nice! Have any pictures?

[musketshooter]

Here is a picture of the receiver ring and sleeve on the barrel.37414

[Rick the Librarian]

Thanks for posting. I've seen a handful of M1903A2s - some with "etching" and some with stamping, like yours.