View Full Version : Type 2 NM Garand questions
Hello, everyone:
I recently purchased what appears to be a genuine Type II Garand NM rifle.
Serial in 608XXXX range, with 4/54 dated NM marked barrel.
DOD cartouche on minty circled P stamped stock.
The only other NM marked part is the front sight.
The glass bedding is typical yellowish color and is identical to my other papered Type II NM.
Last four digits of the serial number are written in yellowish-white grease pencil on the trigger housing and in the stock barrel channel.
Identical numbers and font to my other Type II.
CMP has no record of sale for this rifle.
DCM records are negative as well, but, as I understand, they are incomplete.
Couple of questions:
Are there any other databases that might have the record of this particular rifle?
If seems that it is a genuine Type II without paperwork.
Would the fact that CMP(not DCM) did not sell this particular serial numbered rifle lend credence to the rifles originality as a NM rifle?
Any other way to authenticate it?
Thank you!
Johnny P
09-05-2016, 09:37
Could be a Type I that was slightly modified. Is the NM hand stamped or inscribed/engraved on the barrel? The NM was not centered between the gas cylinder on the earliest rifles, but was later moved approximately 1/2 way between the front sight and front of handguard.
At one time it may have been a "genuine Type II Garand NM rifle" but it is no longer in correct configuration for any Type 2. If it was a Type 1 it would not be that early. Earliest it could be would be 1956 but in 1956 it was configured as a regular service rifle and would not have a 1954 barrel. If 1957 the barrel would have a star stamped next to the NM marking on the barrel. If the stock is as you say and original to the build of that rifle, I would guess it was built in either 1960, 1961 or 62. Look for the year code stamp on the barrel located to the left of the SA and drawing number stamp.The stamp for 1960 looks like a Diamond with flat points, a Triangle for 1961 and a 5 pointed star for 1962.
If CMP had sold the rifle they would have a record. If it were a DCM sale CMP MIGHT have a record. It could have been a Club rifle that was purchased by a club member or even a NM rifle sold to a competitor following the Camp Perry National matches. The only other place you might get a bit of information regarding the rifle would be from a check of the Springfield Research Service records. Some people on the forum have the old SRS books and if you post the full serial number will check for you. Bruce Canfields newest book, "The M1 Garand Rifle" also has some of the SRS records listed.
Pictured below is the year code for 1960 (Diamond with flat points)
37356
Roadkingtrax
09-05-2016, 03:56
That picture looks familiar. :)
Joe, I thought a large quantity of spare 1954 barrels were gauged and used for T2 NM rifles at one time?
Johnny P
09-05-2016, 05:35
Don't know if Herschel reads the M1 Rifle threads, but I believe Herschel has a Type I NM that he had upgraded while at Perry.
It should Tim. The picture of your barrel is a lot clearer than the picture of mine. lol
According to Bob Seijas it was in late 1958 that SA ran out of barrels. Seijas further states " In 1959 Ordnance found 50,000 high grade barrels stored in a warehouse in Schenectady N.Y. These were mostly 1954 and 1955 SA. The 54's were especially tight and SA grabbed them, which is why you see so many 1954 barrels on Type 2 NM rifles."
Don't know if Herschel reads the M1 Rifle threads, but I believe Herschel has a Type I NM that he had upgraded while at Perry.
He use to. I have a Type 1 purchased following the 1957 National Matches by an Army M/Sgt that had competed in the 1957 match's using that rifle. I had a copy of the "Cash Sales" slip documenting the Camp Perry sale. I had communicated with Herschel regarding the rifle he purchased at Perry following the 1958 Matches. Herschel told me that he too had the same "Cash Sales" slip. As to updating his rifle Herschel told me he had paid an Army armorer $ 40.00 to have it glass Bedded.
My rifle, being a late 1956 or early 1957 build, was "service rifle as issued". The only NM marked part would be the barrel. My rifle was upgraded with a NM marked front sight and a NM marked rear sight aperture.
According to the OP the only NM marked part on his rifle, other than the barrel, is the front sight. If that stock is original to the rifle, it was built as a Type 2 and, if anything, as far as parts, it was downgraded, not upgraded.
That picture looks familiar. :)
Joe, I thought a large quantity of spare 1954 barrels were gauged and used for T2 NM rifles at one time?
Tim, The picture of the 1960 code on my rifle is decent. Guess I should have used mine. lol
37361
Roadkingtrax
09-05-2016, 08:45
By all means, if it helps illustrate a point, you can use anything you like. Happy to help!
Thank you for the info and the opinions.
The NM marking on the barrel appears to be hand-engraved or pantographed.
I will have the rifle in my hands in about a week and will take it apart and check the barrel and any other markings. Will also make pictures.(the original pictures are not very nice)
As to the serial numbers written in the barrel channel and on the trigger housing - I was under impression that it was only done at the SA?
If anyone here has access to the SRS records, can you please, PM me?
Thank you, again!
Johnny P
09-06-2016, 07:19
According to the OP the only NM marked part on his rifle, other than the barrel, is the front sight. If that stock is original to the rifle, it was built as a Type 2 and, if anything, as far as parts, it was downgraded, not upgraded.
At the time they had no collector value, and I am sure that Herschel felt that his rifle was upgraded as a target rifle with the bedding.
At the time they had no collector value, and I am sure that Herschel felt that his rifle was upgraded as a target rifle with the bedding.
That's for sure. Hershel said " "Being a shooter I wanted the best rifle for shooting so I paid an Army armorer $ 40.00 to glass bed it in about 1961 or 1962. Little did I know that the $ 40.00 glass bedding job would cut the value of the rifle in later years." But I am sure that, to him, that does not really matter as he enjoyed that rifle and used it for it's intended purpose. I would guess a lot of us that are in our mid to late 70's or more have "upgraded" a few military rifles to our liking. I remember a Smith Corona 03-A3 I bought in a NYC sporting goods store for $ 45.00. It was a mint rifle and shortly after I got it home I drilled it for a Lyman rear sight, added a Lyman front sight with hooded aperture and a Timmey Target trigger. I put a lot of rounds down range with that rifle and never regretted my "upgrading" it. Oh well, guess I am getting off the subject.
Like you said, these rifles were not "collectables".
Cosine26
09-06-2016, 09:37
Hi 2111
I did the same thing only mine was an SC bought through the DCM. for $14,50. I shot it many times up to and including 1000 yards. No one in those days ever thought that the 03A3 would ever become a collector's item.
I have good news to report :
The rear sight is NM marked on the right ear.
The gas cylinder is NM marked on the bottom.
The forward hand guard is glued to the band.
Barrel is marked with a diamond.
Pics to follow
Your rifle could have been a Type 1 rebuilt between late 1959 and early summer of 1960 to Type 2 configuration, or it could have been built new, during this time period, using a receiver on hand. In either case this build would include the 1954 barrel, the NM marked gas cylinder, rear sight Base marked NM, windage knob marked NM, rear sight aperture marked NM over 595 on shank, but NOT hooded. For 1960 the op-rod was NOT marked NM. For 1960 the last four of the rifle serial number was written on the vertical front face of the trigger housing. For 1961 through 1963, this was changed to the floor plate. According to an article by Bob Seijas, "The Type 2 N.M., Part 1" found in the Fall 2003 edition of the GCA Journal, the 1960 built NM rifle is rare as only "only 231 NM rifles were purchased by the public in 1960". There would be a limited number of others that were purchased by competitors following he Camp Perry National Matches, some former military team rifles that were released to CMP for sale and some rifles that were loaned to gun clubs and subsequently purchased by club members. It is to bad that CMP has no record of it's sale as DCM sales documents would certainly increase it's value by quite a bit.
You were very lucky to find this rifle, congratulations.
If you post the complete serial number or PM me with the serial number I will check in the SRS books I have.
3738537386373873738837389Wow!
You are absolutely correct. This rifle has all the markings that you mention!
Here are the detailed pictures.
Thank you so very much!
I had a gut feeling that this was a a correct Type 2, based on very bad photos.
Thank you for offering to check the SRS database. Another member also graciously offered to check the SRS database to see if this rifle is in it.
Serial number is 6088283
I will post an update as soon as I hear from him or from you.
Keeping my fingers crossed.
3739037391373923739337394more pics
3739537396373973739837399more pics
3740037401374023740337404more pics
There is no match in my SRS books or in Bruce Canfield's but this doesn't rule anything out. The SRS records do not include DCM sales rifles. It is what it is. A beautiful Type 2 NM rifle in 1960 configuration. I would not give a second thought to buying a rifle like that, without documentation, as long as the price was right.
I would like to thank you, Dave and the other forum members for all the help you provided in identifying it.
I hope to recheck the DCM records in 6 months or so, hoping they will be complete by then.
I am very happy with my purchase. The price was right.:-)
Herschel
09-12-2016, 07:38
I can confirm what 2111 and JohnnyP have said about my experience with M1 NM Rifle #6095050. I selected that high serial number as some NM rifles were being assembled on used receivers and the supply of new M1 receivers was depleted. I wanted one that was all new. The rifle came with standard sights, which I sill have, but the army armorers replaced them with NM sights for me. Such service was available to competitors from the army in those years. I suppose I need to document all this and include the info in the butt as the person who buys the rifle from my estate sale might be confused about the provenance and originality of the rifle.
Herschel, That provenance will sure mean a lot to a future collector. Thanks again for the help you gave me in regards to my 1957 match. Joe
Herschel
09-15-2016, 01:27
Since I only had the receipt for payment for Springfield Armory M1 NM rifle number 6095050, I requested a letter from the CMP showing the rifle had been sold to me.
This was in 1999 and they were able to provide me a letter certifying the rifle was a NM and had been sold to me. I don 't know if they will provide that service now.
They still provide that service but only have SOME of the old DCM sales records. As I understand it, rifles such as yours, that were purchased at Perry, a "Cash Sales" receipt was given the buyer. That would be all you would get BUT the record of the sale was forwarded to the Army Director of Civilian Marksmanship (DCM). These sales were then, along with the mail order sales, transcribed onto cards and held at Rock Island Arsenal. It is these cards that CMP was able to obtain. CMP did not get all the cards but they do have a lot. You were lucky, as they had a record of the Perry sale to you. I was not that lucky and only have the "Cash Sales" receipt. As I said, CMP still will do a search of serial number but it now costs $ 25.00. Well worth the cost if you get a hit. My rifle, purchased at the1957 National Matches, is # 6097560 with an 8 of 56 barrel.
Just to clarify:
So CMP has all of the DCM cards, but some have not been catalogued yet, OR they have only some of the cards? If so - who has the rest of the DCM sales cards?
As Joe said, I believe they have some of the cards. Like most old military files they were either boxed up and sent to a records holding facility in compliance with the records management system of the day or were simply discarded when someone thought they were no longer needed or required. I also heard that the cards were sometimes completed by temp summer hires, etc., and recording and transferring information was not well kept or complete. Don't quote me on that as I was either told or read that somewhere. However, I could be confusing that with something else. That said CMP was able to confirm my 1955 match rifle. I already had the data card info from RIA but wanted double confirmation since it predates Canfields observations.
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