DougBowser
09-19-2016, 04:37
MY EXPERIENCES WITH A .45 WEBLEY REVOLVER
Unlike my experiences with older rifles, I did not have a lot of contact with Webley revolvers in my youth. I lived in New York and the Draconian gun laws there precluded my Father or I from owning many handguns. I remember looking longingly at the ads from Winfield Arms and Golden State Arms, when they advertised the 4” barreled Webley revolvers. The price of a Webley revolver in .455 was $12.95 and the price for the revolver converted to .45 ACP was $16.95. There was very little .455 ammunition available at that time. Dominion Ammunition Company of Canada made a .455 cartridge with 265 gr bullet with a velocity of 650 feet per second. Military surplus ammunition was almost nonexistent. The conversion to .45 ACP was more practical for owners that wanted to shoot the revolvers. It was also a bad idea to convert many of these revolvers and I will discuss that fact later in the article. I did get to fire a few Webley revolvers before moving to Georgia, Florida and Mississippi, where the gun laws would allow me to own them. I had a friend, named Charles Demport, who was a Gunsmith and master machinist and another friend named Earl Eason. Both of these men had Federal and State firearm dealer’s licenses, and they would take me along to the ranges when they tested their handguns. It gave me a chance to fire many different handguns before I was 21 years old.
When the British decided to adopt a standard revolver, they were using several different versions of the Webley design as well as the Adams .476 revolver with a solid frame. In 1887, they adopted the Mark I revolver in .455. It fired a Black powder cartridge with a 265 GR lead bullet with a velocity of 650 FPS. It is quite a formidable handgun. It also loaded faster than any other standard military revolver used at that time. All you had to do is open the revolver and turn it upside down and when fully opened, the empty cartridges were extracted and fell to the ground by Gravity. A shooter should never extract empty cartridges from any revolver without holding the cylinder vertically, with the revolver barrel up. A cartridge case can fall under the extractor and tie up the revolver.
Recently I bought a Webley Mark I revolver that had been converted to .45 ACP. The revolver was made in 1889 and not suited for use with .45 ACP - 230 GR hardball ammunition. I believe a steady diet of USGI 230 GR ammunition would have destroyed this revolver. I once had a Webley Mark III that was made unserviceable by using USGI .45 ACP ammo in it. The left side of the barrel near the cylinder was blown off. Luckily I know another collector in Manitoba, Canada and he found a barrel for my revolver. After this experience I knew I would have to use Black Powder or very light loads of smokeless powder in the Webley.
The condition of the Mark I was remarkable. It had never been refinished and despite it’s age, it was never allowed to collect any rust. The bluing was worn on all the edges and the rest of the revolver had the blue turning to a silver blue color. When I inspected the revolver, I got the opinion that it was carried a lot and not fired extensively. The action was tight and timed perfectly and when the revolver was fired, the cylinder locked up like a vault. There was one small chip out of the 123 year old hard rubber grips. Usually Webley grips are unserviceable due to cracking, when they are that old.
37515
Left side showing chip in grip
The bore of this revolver is excellent. Unlike modern firearms, this revolver’s bore has Metford rifling. The British used Metford rifling in their Long Lee-Metford No 1 rifles as well. The square cut rifled bore used in the British Army, is called an Enfield bore. The designation for the Enfield bored rifles is Long Lee-Enfield No 1. The Japanese also used Metford rifling in some of their Type 99 7.7mm rifles.
37516
This Metford rifled .45 bore is nearly mint, even though it looks worn
Usually the cylinder throats are smaller than the bore diameter in the Webley revolvers. They compensated for this by using a hollow based bullet. I was lucky, the groove diameter of the bore measured .452” and the cylinder throats were .452” as well. This meant, I could use standard lead bullets sized for the .45 ACP. I decided to use 200 GR H&G #130 bullets. The usual powder charge used in Bullseye target shooting is 3.9 GR of Bullseye powder. I decided to use 3.1 GR instead. I felt this was all the old revolver could tolerate. I went to the range and to my dismay the revolver shot 5” to the left at 25 yards. The rear sight is not adjustable on the Webley, so I built up the very wide rear sight notch with J-B Weld and re-cut the rear sight notch further to the right and the pistol shot to the center.
37517
Webley rear sight after J-B Weld was applied and the rear sight notch re-cut
I wondered why the Webley had not been fired a lot, as old as it was. I discovered it was a naval issue. The top of the grip frame is stamped with the letter “N”.
Even though the Webley was a Black Powder revolver, the British Government required it to be proof tested when it was converted to .45 ACP. The original cylinder on my handgun was retained. Some of the Mark I, II and III cylinders were replaced with Mark IV cylinders. They were stronger because of a change in metallurgy and they were also hardened for use with more powerful loads.
37519
The Crown with “NP” marking, meaning Nitro Proof
Our club decided to conduct Vintage Military Handgun Tournaments. I was hoping the Webley would be accurate enough to be competitive in the matches. It was not. The groups were 4” at 25 yards. The target we shoot at is the US Army “L” Target and it’s 10 ring is 5” in diameter. It is the target the US Army used to train troops with during WW2. We also shoot the match with one hand. That is the way our troops were trained to shoot the pistol during WW2 and Korea. A 100% Vintage Handgun Match. Since I could not be competitive with the Webley, I decided to let it go. I advertised it for sale on the internet and a fellow from Alberta, Canada inquired about it. I knew I could send the antique pistol out of the Country by US Mail, without a license. He needed no license or registration in Canada. Also, he could carry the antique handgun while hunting, something he could not do with a modern handgun. I explained the accuracy level of the pistol and he said it would do.
WARNING ABOUT SHOOTING .45 ACP AMMO IN WEBLEY REVOLVERS
The truth about using .45 ACP USGI style 230 GR ammo in any Webley is, the British .455 Mark II Cordite Load has a working pressure of 13,000 PSI and the .45 ACP 230 gr load has a working pressure of nearly 20,000 PSI. The List below is of the Webley Models and when they were adopted.
1. Mark I, adopted 1887
2. Mark II, adopted 1895 Improved hardened recoil shield, often retrofitted to the Mark I
3. Mark III adopted 1897 not much change to improve strength
4. Mark IV adopted 1899 Often called the Boer War Model metallurgy in cylinders improved and specially hardened in anticipation of Cordite loads. Some Mark IV cylinders were fitted to Mark I, II and II revolvers to improve strength
5. Mark V adopted 1913, furnished in 4” and 5” versions. The cylinder was enlarged in diameter and was designed for Cordite powder.
6. Mark VI, adopted 1915, first Webley .455 revolver with square butt. I have seen photos and reports of Mark VI revolvers failing with .45 ACP Ball ammo. This model revolver was used in the movie “Zulu”. Rourke’s Drift took place in 1879, 36 years before the Mark VI was adopted.
I consider the use of .45 ACP ball ammo in any of the Webley models dangerous. I have seen a failure of the Mark III model I had and reports of two Mark VI revolvers failing. When a handgun fails, it seldom injures the shooter. It is the people standing to each side of the shooter who can be struck with flying shrapnel. Be careful, if a cartridge fits in a firearm, it may not be suitable to fire in it. Do not listen to the old saying; “I have been shooting that firearm for years with no problem”. The next shot could be the charm.
37518
Webley Mark VI revolver wrecked by a .45 ACP Ball rounds
Doug Bowser
Unlike my experiences with older rifles, I did not have a lot of contact with Webley revolvers in my youth. I lived in New York and the Draconian gun laws there precluded my Father or I from owning many handguns. I remember looking longingly at the ads from Winfield Arms and Golden State Arms, when they advertised the 4” barreled Webley revolvers. The price of a Webley revolver in .455 was $12.95 and the price for the revolver converted to .45 ACP was $16.95. There was very little .455 ammunition available at that time. Dominion Ammunition Company of Canada made a .455 cartridge with 265 gr bullet with a velocity of 650 feet per second. Military surplus ammunition was almost nonexistent. The conversion to .45 ACP was more practical for owners that wanted to shoot the revolvers. It was also a bad idea to convert many of these revolvers and I will discuss that fact later in the article. I did get to fire a few Webley revolvers before moving to Georgia, Florida and Mississippi, where the gun laws would allow me to own them. I had a friend, named Charles Demport, who was a Gunsmith and master machinist and another friend named Earl Eason. Both of these men had Federal and State firearm dealer’s licenses, and they would take me along to the ranges when they tested their handguns. It gave me a chance to fire many different handguns before I was 21 years old.
When the British decided to adopt a standard revolver, they were using several different versions of the Webley design as well as the Adams .476 revolver with a solid frame. In 1887, they adopted the Mark I revolver in .455. It fired a Black powder cartridge with a 265 GR lead bullet with a velocity of 650 FPS. It is quite a formidable handgun. It also loaded faster than any other standard military revolver used at that time. All you had to do is open the revolver and turn it upside down and when fully opened, the empty cartridges were extracted and fell to the ground by Gravity. A shooter should never extract empty cartridges from any revolver without holding the cylinder vertically, with the revolver barrel up. A cartridge case can fall under the extractor and tie up the revolver.
Recently I bought a Webley Mark I revolver that had been converted to .45 ACP. The revolver was made in 1889 and not suited for use with .45 ACP - 230 GR hardball ammunition. I believe a steady diet of USGI 230 GR ammunition would have destroyed this revolver. I once had a Webley Mark III that was made unserviceable by using USGI .45 ACP ammo in it. The left side of the barrel near the cylinder was blown off. Luckily I know another collector in Manitoba, Canada and he found a barrel for my revolver. After this experience I knew I would have to use Black Powder or very light loads of smokeless powder in the Webley.
The condition of the Mark I was remarkable. It had never been refinished and despite it’s age, it was never allowed to collect any rust. The bluing was worn on all the edges and the rest of the revolver had the blue turning to a silver blue color. When I inspected the revolver, I got the opinion that it was carried a lot and not fired extensively. The action was tight and timed perfectly and when the revolver was fired, the cylinder locked up like a vault. There was one small chip out of the 123 year old hard rubber grips. Usually Webley grips are unserviceable due to cracking, when they are that old.
37515
Left side showing chip in grip
The bore of this revolver is excellent. Unlike modern firearms, this revolver’s bore has Metford rifling. The British used Metford rifling in their Long Lee-Metford No 1 rifles as well. The square cut rifled bore used in the British Army, is called an Enfield bore. The designation for the Enfield bored rifles is Long Lee-Enfield No 1. The Japanese also used Metford rifling in some of their Type 99 7.7mm rifles.
37516
This Metford rifled .45 bore is nearly mint, even though it looks worn
Usually the cylinder throats are smaller than the bore diameter in the Webley revolvers. They compensated for this by using a hollow based bullet. I was lucky, the groove diameter of the bore measured .452” and the cylinder throats were .452” as well. This meant, I could use standard lead bullets sized for the .45 ACP. I decided to use 200 GR H&G #130 bullets. The usual powder charge used in Bullseye target shooting is 3.9 GR of Bullseye powder. I decided to use 3.1 GR instead. I felt this was all the old revolver could tolerate. I went to the range and to my dismay the revolver shot 5” to the left at 25 yards. The rear sight is not adjustable on the Webley, so I built up the very wide rear sight notch with J-B Weld and re-cut the rear sight notch further to the right and the pistol shot to the center.
37517
Webley rear sight after J-B Weld was applied and the rear sight notch re-cut
I wondered why the Webley had not been fired a lot, as old as it was. I discovered it was a naval issue. The top of the grip frame is stamped with the letter “N”.
Even though the Webley was a Black Powder revolver, the British Government required it to be proof tested when it was converted to .45 ACP. The original cylinder on my handgun was retained. Some of the Mark I, II and III cylinders were replaced with Mark IV cylinders. They were stronger because of a change in metallurgy and they were also hardened for use with more powerful loads.
37519
The Crown with “NP” marking, meaning Nitro Proof
Our club decided to conduct Vintage Military Handgun Tournaments. I was hoping the Webley would be accurate enough to be competitive in the matches. It was not. The groups were 4” at 25 yards. The target we shoot at is the US Army “L” Target and it’s 10 ring is 5” in diameter. It is the target the US Army used to train troops with during WW2. We also shoot the match with one hand. That is the way our troops were trained to shoot the pistol during WW2 and Korea. A 100% Vintage Handgun Match. Since I could not be competitive with the Webley, I decided to let it go. I advertised it for sale on the internet and a fellow from Alberta, Canada inquired about it. I knew I could send the antique pistol out of the Country by US Mail, without a license. He needed no license or registration in Canada. Also, he could carry the antique handgun while hunting, something he could not do with a modern handgun. I explained the accuracy level of the pistol and he said it would do.
WARNING ABOUT SHOOTING .45 ACP AMMO IN WEBLEY REVOLVERS
The truth about using .45 ACP USGI style 230 GR ammo in any Webley is, the British .455 Mark II Cordite Load has a working pressure of 13,000 PSI and the .45 ACP 230 gr load has a working pressure of nearly 20,000 PSI. The List below is of the Webley Models and when they were adopted.
1. Mark I, adopted 1887
2. Mark II, adopted 1895 Improved hardened recoil shield, often retrofitted to the Mark I
3. Mark III adopted 1897 not much change to improve strength
4. Mark IV adopted 1899 Often called the Boer War Model metallurgy in cylinders improved and specially hardened in anticipation of Cordite loads. Some Mark IV cylinders were fitted to Mark I, II and II revolvers to improve strength
5. Mark V adopted 1913, furnished in 4” and 5” versions. The cylinder was enlarged in diameter and was designed for Cordite powder.
6. Mark VI, adopted 1915, first Webley .455 revolver with square butt. I have seen photos and reports of Mark VI revolvers failing with .45 ACP Ball ammo. This model revolver was used in the movie “Zulu”. Rourke’s Drift took place in 1879, 36 years before the Mark VI was adopted.
I consider the use of .45 ACP ball ammo in any of the Webley models dangerous. I have seen a failure of the Mark III model I had and reports of two Mark VI revolvers failing. When a handgun fails, it seldom injures the shooter. It is the people standing to each side of the shooter who can be struck with flying shrapnel. Be careful, if a cartridge fits in a firearm, it may not be suitable to fire in it. Do not listen to the old saying; “I have been shooting that firearm for years with no problem”. The next shot could be the charm.
37518
Webley Mark VI revolver wrecked by a .45 ACP Ball rounds
Doug Bowser