Model 1895 Winchester-Lee arrived - pictures

[Rick the Librarian]

I got my Winchester-Lee this morning, and although I'm still looking over (I haven't even STARTED to learn much yet!) but thought you'd like some pictures. I do know it was the second group of 5,000 ordered later in production and is one of the last ones manufactured for the Navy, if I'm not mistaken.

Very few if any markings...inspected by Navy Lt. John N. Jones, that I know.

http://www.fototime.com/B8C1227246F3D42/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/1F1FEF14E413016/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/A36F51A55A3E156/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/7F9EFBAFD4432CA/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/AD63E7409A4D6A2/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/2CA2A792DA555A5/standard.jpg

[Rick the Librarian]

A few more pictures, including a "group portrait of three other rifles from the same period -

1) Model 1896 Krag carbine
2) Model 1896 Krag rifle
3) Model 1895 Winchester 30-40 rifle
4) The Model 1895 Winchester-Lee

http://www.fototime.com/9F079C118BB3540/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/E009293E4D518E9/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/9251B0A9653C7D9/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/CA1DBACD3159157/standard.jpg

[CJCulpeper]

A few more pictures, including a "group portrait of three other rifles from the same period -

1) Model 1896 Krag carbine
2) Model 1896 Krag rifle
3) Model 1895 Winchester 30-40 rifle
4) The Model 1895 Winchester-Lee




They all look great! May I have dibs on the both 1895s when you are down and out in the gutter wondering where you will find the money for one more bottle of Dom Perignon? Of course you could sell the Amazing Technocolor Dream Afghan for big money.:icon_lol:

And the front site hood is on backwards. All you need to do is turn it 180. Does the bolt release work correctly? One of mine has a worn bolt release and I have not found a replacement. Looks like I will have to get a new one made.

Are you thinking of a reproduction sling? Maybe?

[Rick the Librarian]

LOL!!

I confess I haven't figured out (or tried to) take the bolt out, so I couldn't answer your question. Was pretty sure the front sight protector was on backwards. I assume you have to loosen or remove the two small screws to take it off?

Yes, looking at a repro (from S&S) lower butt swivel. Got a source for a sling? I read in one of the accounts that the Model 1887 was used on some of the later ones.

The Model 1895 Winchester was a rifle I picked up 3-4 years ago. Not a military rifle, but even the Russian "muskets" ain't cheap. I don't care for the Winchester lever actions, but, for some reason, the Model 1895s have always fascinated me.

[CJCulpeper]

LOL!!

I confess I haven't figured out (or tried to) take the bolt out, so I couldn't answer your question. Was pretty sure the front sight protector was on backwards. I assume you have to loosen or remove the two small screws to take it off?

Yes, looking at a repro (from S&S) lower butt swivel. Got a source for a sling? I read in one of the accounts that the Model 1887 was used on some of the later ones.

The Model 1895 Winchester was a rifle I picked up 3-4 years ago. Not a military rifle, but even the Russian "muskets" ain't cheap. I don't care for the Winchester lever actions, but, for some reason, the Model 1895s have always fascinated me.

There are two ways to open the bolt. One is pulling the trigger on a loaded or empty chamber. The other way is the lower of the two levers on the left side of the receiver. Pushing it down releases the bolt. The other is the bolt stop. This is all spelled out in the Lee Manual.

Original Swing swivel (http://www.jjmilitaryantiques.com/Home.aspx/Catdet/WLSC?nm=winchester-lee-rifle-detachable-sling-swivel&category=Search&bread_last=%2FHome.aspx%2FCatpage%2FSearch%3FSearc hList%3DKeyWord%26txtSearch%3Dswivel%26psize%3D100 %26sortseq%3DName&category_desc=Search%20for%20...%20swivel) here. Jeez. Do I need to do everything around this place? :icon_sunny:

I already have a sling for one of my guns. The 1887 sling does not look like the original W-L sling that I got with the low number rifle. Get the repro then you don't have to worry about dinking it up.

That is the reason I bought my 95 Musket. It has a certain cool factor.

[Rick the Librarian]

The Lee manual will be one of my first "additional" purchases. As I'm mechanically all thumbs, I don't like to mess with something I'm unfamiliar - that bolt looks a little imposing, for right now!

A 1895 Musket would be neat, but just a little out of my league, financially. Had to sell two rifles to buy this one.

[CJCulpeper]

The sling swivel is placed in the hole at the front of the hand guard and not in the lower rear position.

Am reseaching a picture of a rifle with the sling in place.

ADDED

Download the Lee Manual and on pdf page 14 for proper configuration.

[CJCulpeper]

The Lee manual will be one of my first "additional" purchases. As I'm mechanically all thumbs, I don't like to mess with something I'm unfamiliar - that bolt looks a little imposing, for right now!

A 1895 Musket would be neat, but just a little out of my league, financially. Had to sell two rifles to buy this one.

No need to purchase. Just down load the two pdfs from forgottenweapons. I own the original commercial handbook.

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/manuals/M1895-Navy-Lee-manual.pdf
http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/manuals/leehandbook.pdf

Two rifles well spent. You will never go rong with a winchester.

[Rick the Librarian]

Thanks for the tip on the manual download!

[psteinmayer]

I saw the pictures on FB. Indeed a beautiful thing Rick!

[Kragrifle]

To remove the bolt, push down on the tab left top of receiver till it just slides off to the left then pull out the bolt. Interesting rifles, interesting history.

[madsenshooter]

Pricey as they are, I'd simply have to shoot it, if I had one. At least a few times, maybe with cast loads, since I have a few 6mm moulds that aren't doing anything right now.

[rayg]

I shoot a load of 28 grs of 3031 powder with the 6mm bullets in mine. Not a very hot load apparently with probably under 2000 fps. I read that the original load was some were around 26-2800 fps. I wonder what would be a good safe load that would get near that. I tried cast 243 bullets in the rifle but they don't group very well apparently because of the rounded metford rifling does not grip the soft bullet well. I have the same problem my Japanese rifles with Metford rifling. Here's mine with a very rare original sling, Ray

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[rayg]

37643376443764537646

[Rick the Librarian]

There are some rifles that shooting is not an option and this is one - not saying that is best for everyone, but best for me.

Thanks especially for the pictures of the accessories. I'd like a repro lower butt swivel and maybe a repro sling (anyone make those?). However, will probably not go on an active search for much of the rest unless something falls into my lap.

[Dan Shapiro]

Rick, try S&S Firearms...........

http://www.ssfirearms.com/products.asp?cat=131

[Rick the Librarian]

Yes, I've ben looking at them - especially for the repro lower butt swivel. Thanks!

[5MadFarmers]

37643376443764537646

Just the other day I saw Charleton Heston with the USMC at Peking. Paused the footage showing one of the rifles. Held up the Navy Lee and compared to what I was seeing on the screen. The gun on the screen had a volley sight. The Navy Lee didn't. It hit me kind of sudden like: "I bought the wrong gun." Clearly the Marines had Long Lee rifles at Peking. Ergo that photo you've included must be a photoshop job Ray.

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2016/lee_sling.png

Looks around. "Nope." Don't have one of them.

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2016/lee_belt.png

Looks around again. "Nope." Don't have one of them.

Looks at Ray's cleaning thong thing. "Nope, can't remember getting one of them."

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2016/lee_bayonet.png

Yup, that I've got.

They are interesting rifles. Have a Navy and another barrelled action. Some assembly required. Batteries and other small parts not included.

Nice rifle Rick. I'd not shoot it either. Navy cartridge was 2,550 fps. "Hardened lead bullet, having a copper jacket plated with tin."

[psteinmayer]

I don't know if I'd shoot one or not... but I'd sure love to have one!

I wonder if there are any reported failures of the rifle during the short period that it was in service?

[rayg]

"I bought the wrong gun." Clearly the Marines had Long Lee rifles at Peking. Ergo that photo you've included must be a photoshop job Ray"

Darn how could I have been so easily deceived. Lol,

P.S. Nice rifle Ric, Ray

[rayg]

Speaking of slings, in addition to the Winchester made 95 sling on my rifle, which is I'd as being made by Winchester by the star proof that was made for the 95 Lee and 95 Winchester lever rifles. I have another sling that was made for the large order of Russian 95 Winchesters. It apparently was contracted out by Winchester as it is not as well made as the Winchester one and carries no Winchester proof star and has lesser quality stitching. It also carries the later added patent stamps. The Russian sling is about as scarce, or maybe even more, then the 95 Lee one on my rifle as most went to Russia with the contracted rifles. Just want to add that both slings are very scarce and of course expensive. One of the gun dealers had a couple of slings like my Lee one in their catalog years ago, which by the way were sold for over $2,000 each. But if you keep your eyes open, you might find one a lot cheaper, still not real cheap, like I did, as they are not common and most people/dealers don't recognize what they are or their value. For example I traded a Japanese sling for the Russian one, Ray

3767137672

[5MadFarmers]

575164.

[Rick the Librarian]

I'm not really worried about "tricking out" my new rifle - not at the prices I've seen. But it certainly never hurts to keep your eyes open. I'm just happy to have the rifle.

[rayg]

5MadFarmers;
575164.

??? what does that number refer to or mean, what am I missing. Ray

[5MadFarmers]

5MadFarmers;
575164.

??? what does that number refer to or mean, what am I missing. Ray

The patent number for that sling. They stamped the date on it. That is the patent number.

When I indexed the U.S. patents I only took firearms and military stuff. Often the snaps and such have patents. Those I'd typically not notice. When I encounter them I go back and dig them out of the source documents and add them to my index. Figuring that would likely be a patent for a "buckle with a roller" or somesuch I'd typically not have it. So I walked the source without even checking my index. That date isn't for the buckle - it's for the sling. "Perkins and Johnson, Winchester Arms." That sling is, without a a doubt, Winchester.

If I made fewer assumptions I'd have found it in my index.

That's ok. Walking the source documents for that day's patents I did find a nice chocolate dipper.

[11mm]

I'm not really worried about "tricking out" my new rifle - not at the prices I've seen. But it certainly never hurts to keep your eyes open. I'm just happy to have the rifle.

The bayonets are not too hard to find, and though you are competing with a world of purely bayonet collectors, they sometimes show up on the auction sites at a price that does not make you wince. I ended up getting one for a small percentage of what my rifle cost. They display well with the rifle. Now finding a bayonet sheath...that's another matter entirely.
I have been trying to buy an original clip from a cartridge collector/dealer at a gun show I visit once a year, and a c-note does not interest him. I doubt if two would. But you may get lucky....

[rayg]

That is really great research 5MF. I figured the sling, including the buckle on my Win. Lee rifle is a Winchester sling because of the Win star proof stamp on the leather. And figured that the Winchester patent stamps on the 2nd sling was only for the buckles. Good to know the patent stamps are for the whole slings. I had no doubt the 2nd sling was also a Win sling due to the buckle but because of the poorer stitching, I thought maybe Win may have farmed out the leather portion. If not it Looks like Win quality control was lowed on the later slings possibly because of the large Russian order. In either case, both are Winchester 95 Lee or lever rifle slings.
Ric, sorry for horning in on your post about your great rifle find, but just thought the sling info might be important knowledge to collectors relating to the rifles, Ray

[blackhawknj]

Some years ago there was a shooter named Glen Devries-he worked at SARCO here in New Jersey, I never talked to him but saw him when I visited there.
He died from injuries received firing an M1895 Lee Navy. Not sure of the exact cause, all I can say is be careful.

[Griff Murphey]

Sincere congrats on one of the "holy grails" of US martial arms collecting! You have done well!

[5MadFarmers]

Inspectors last name was Jordan, vice "Jones." Based at the torpedo station in Newport R.I..
Navy gave Bridgeport Gun Implement a contract for thongs. Which means BGI may have sold them commercially as well given they made them for the Navy.
Two belts went at auction two days ago. Lady Fate smiled and one will be on my porch soon. No suspenders.

[rayg]

Some years ago there was a shooter named Glen Devries-he worked at SARCO here in New Jersey, I never talked to him but saw him when I visited there.
He died from injuries received firing an M1895 Lee Navy. Not sure of the exact cause, all I can say is be careful.

If I recall the story correctly he was shooting the Lee with reloads and the first shot the case showed bad signs of excess pressure. He should have stopped! His 2nd shot the case blew and sent the bolt or parts of it back into his forehead. They said there were unfired rds on the bench that he was using that I believe when checked contained Unique powder in them. I think they suspect a overload or double charge of the powder. That's to the best of my memory, Ray

[PhillipM]

If I recall the story correctly he was shooting the Lee with reloads and the first shot the case showed bad signs of excess pressure. He should have stopped! His 2nd shot the case blew and sent the bolt or parts of it back into his forehead. They said there were unfired rds on the bench that he was using that I believe when checked contained Unique powder in them. I think they suspect a overload or double charge of the powder. That's to the best of my memory, Ray

I think that's what Doug Bowser told me long ago. He spoke with him many times over the phone.

[CJCulpeper]

Here is a good thread for Mr. deRuiter's event. Never use .30-40 brass as the parent case for 6mm USN.

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/winchester-lee-navy-safety/#comments

[psteinmayer]

I seem to recall that it had to do with the reloading, wrong powder, and use of 30-40 brass too!