Brass butt plate

[Merc]

I've always wondered, with all the commodity shortages during WW2, why did Savage make and install a brass butt plate on my Savage 1944 No. 4 Mk 1*? I've seen other Savage No. 4 Mk1* rifles with alloy butt plates. Brass was in high demand for making ammo in 44.

[JB White]

Is your buttplate from Savage? What markings are on it? Look inside the trap door too.
The alloy buttplates were a substitute standard and they did not weather the test of time very well. A great many alloy buttplates, including British, were eventually replaced with brass due to cracking and/or deterioration.

[Merc]

:dog:
Is your buttplate from Savage? What markings are on it? Look inside the trap door too.
The alloy buttplates were a substitute standard and they did not weather the test of time very well. A great many alloy buttplates, including British, were eventually replaced with brass due to cracking and/or deterioration.

JB,

I've removed the brass butt plate from my No. 4 several times and never noticed the following stampings on the inside surface:

Plate:

F
282
48

Trapdoor:

F
F265

[JB White]

It's a British replacement. So, now you know. :)

[Merc]

It's a British replacement. So, now you know. :)

JB,

That answers one question and spawns several others. So, Savage originally furnished their No. 4s with an alloy butt plate? Does the "F" stamped on the rear mean that Fazakerley made the replacement brass butt plate? Does the "48" stamped on the rear indicate that it was made in 1948? Did Enfield stamp rebuild dates anywhere on the No. 4? Reason I'm asking, there's a "51" and a "K" (or possibly an "R") stamped on the wrist band near the serial number which I suspect is 1951 and an inspector or an armory ID Mark. Any idea what the 3 digit codes stamped on the rear of the brass butt plate and trap door mean and why the Brits decided against using steel butt plates like everyone else and turned to brass.

[p246]

The stamped number on the wrist I'll risk a guess without a picture. Year of rebuild by our Canadian Friends to the north. They did not use the FTR mark our English friends to the east did. It's my understanding the Canadians were not always good at marking rebuilds. The English were a different story. I have a No 4 Longbranch all matching numbers but Forewood. Wrist is 52 marked. Forewood and one hand guard is walnut. I'm guessing the rest is beech or another light wood. Stained close to match. The original serial number in Forewood is struck out by a single line. No other serial number was added. She is a solid shooter and still wears her 1945 barrel. During the 52 rebuild it looks like it got some new wood and refinished metal.

[Tuna]

How about one more question. I have a #4 Savage made that has a brass butt plate but the plate is too small for the stock and doesn't fit properly. What would this plate belong on?

[JB White]

There should be a small margin of wood beyond the edges of the plate. They weren't built to be flush to the edges. The wood typically "wore in" while in service. If you have a Normal or Long buttstock, that margin might be more generous than a fit to a Small or Bantam butt.

So long as you have a rounded tang (as opposed to a triangular tang for the SMLE), it's just the norm for a No4.

[Merc]

Here are a few photo of my 1944 Savage No. 4. The "51" is right above the serial number on the wrist band. I assume "VNS" and "B" are inspector marks.

3784037841378423784337844

[Merc]

Here are a few more.

3784537846378473784837849

[p246]

Yep that's how my 45 Longbranch looks with the 52 rebuild stamp. Mine is below the serial number a little bit more centered. IVe seen them both ways. Everything I've read says this the trait of a Canadian rebuild.

[JB White]

VNS is a manufacturers marking same as the B on the rear sight.
Your rifle picked up a lot of British parts when serviced.

[Merc]

So, Savage made my No. 4 in 1944 and the Canadians rebuilt it in 1951. That answers another question. They could have replaced the alloy butt plate with the brass butt plate. The "48" that's stamped on the rear of the plate could be 1948 so the timing is correct. It's still a very accurate rifle. Thanks for the info.

[Merc]

How about one more question. I have a #4 Savage made that has a brass butt plate but the plate is too small for the stock and doesn't fit properly. What would this plate belong on?

Tuna,

Check out www.ssporters.com for No. 4 butt plates. They show an original Savage alloy No. 4 plate for your rifle.

[Merc]

So, Savage made my No. 4 in 1944 and the Canadians rebuilt it in 1951. That answers another question. They could have replaced the alloy butt plate with the brass butt plate. The "48" that's stamped on the rear of the plate could be 1948 so the timing is correct. It's still a very accurate rifle. Thanks for the info.


VNS is a manufacturers marking same as the B on the rear sight.
Your rifle picked up a lot of British parts when serviced.

So, the British and Canadians did the same as their US counterparts when it came to mixing parts during the rebuild process. Doesn't surprise me. Just glad it still works as intended.

[p246]

Yep they didnt care about us collectors back then, just good working rifles.

[Tuna]

Tuna,

Check out www.ssporters.com for No. 4 butt plates. They show an original Savage alloy No. 4 plate for your rifle.

Merc,

Thank you for the information. I will check with them for a replacement. But the one I have now is far too short as the lower hole for the screw doesn't even line up. Not even close. I had just wondered what it was for as it is a butt plate off an Enfield of some kind. This #4 is my Granddaughters favorite large bolt rifle and she is darned accurate with it.

[Merc]

I just measured my brass butt plate from my No. 4 with my digital calipers and the dimensions are:

Length - 4.677"
Width - 1.562"
Hole center to center - 3.000"

[Merc]

Merc,

Thank you for the information. I will check with them for a replacement. But the one I have now is far too short as the lower hole for the screw doesn't even line up. Not even close. I had just wondered what it was for as it is a butt plate off an Enfield of some kind. This #4 is my Granddaughters favorite large bolt rifle and she is darned accurate with it.

Maybe JB or Sunray will recognize your brass plate if you post a front/back photo and list the stampings on the back. Ssporters also lists No. 4 brass plates in case you want to keep the look.

[Merc]

VNS is a manufacturers marking same as the B on the rear sight.
Your rifle picked up a lot of British parts when serviced.

JB,

Do you know what manf. used the initials VNS and B? Which parts on the rifle were British made? Half the fun of owning an old No. 4 is knowing everything there is to know.

BTW, sweet win for the Cubs last night. Finally put the curse to rest.

[JB White]

VNS = Viners, and B = BSA.

Merc, I would suggest picking up a copy of 'The Broad Arrow' by Skennerton. While not complete, it's the most comprehensive listing of British markings available in one package.


Thanks about the Cubs. I'm only one of millions who feel this way.
My father lived through 4 prior Cubs World Series appearances. Too young to really recall 1932. Remembers '35, '38, and ,'45. Thankfully he's still here to see a win in 2016.
He's a lifelong Cubs fan and baseball fan. Grew up a couple of blocks from Wrigley as did I. He first introduced me to Ernie Banks at a Cubs vs Milwaukee Braves game when I was a youngster. Then dragged me with him to Milwaukee when the Braves won the Series in '57. So glad I can share this with him. Better than the time I first bought him a beer.

[Merc]

VNS = Viners, and B = BSA.

Merc, I would suggest picking up a copy of 'The Broad Arrow' by Skennerton. While not complete, it's the most comprehensive listing of British markings available in one package.


Thanks about the Cubs. I'm only one of millions who feel this way.
My father lived through 4 prior Cubs World Series appearances. Too young to really recall 1932. Remembers '35, '38, and ,'45. Thankfully he's still here to see a win in 2016.
He's a lifelong Cubs fan and baseball fan. Grew up a couple of blocks from Wrigley as did I. He first introduced me to Ernie Banks at a Cubs vs Milwaukee Braves game when I was a youngster. Then dragged me with him to Milwaukee when the Braves won the Series in '57. So glad I can share this with him. Better than the time I first bought him a beer.

JB,

Thanks for the tip. Hopefully, it's still being published and available.

I happened to be in Chicago on business many years ago when the Cubs played the first night game under the lights. I remember what a big deal it was.

[JB White]

First try or second try? They got rained out during the first attempt!
The Statler Brothers had to change some song lyrics because of those lights.

When pigs fly.
When Hell freezes over.
When the lights come on at Wrigley....scratch than one. :)

[Merc]

Not real sure. We watched from a hotel bar which was packed.

[JB White]

Just to get back on track. Did they have Enfield butt plates in the vending machines? :)

[Sunray]

Your Canadian friends to the North did not and never have cared about who made what part that went on what rifle. Our Weapons Techs, factory workies and troopies didn't care about whether or not a rifle ever got rebuilt. If it worked it was good enough.
A Small or Bantam butt is the same size as a Normal or Long except for the length.
With Enfields in general parts on 'em depends a great deal on who imported the thing, Stateside, and when too.

[Merc]

Your Canadian friends to the North did not and never have cared about who made what part that went on what rifle. Our Weapons Techs, factory workies and troopies didn't care about whether or not a rifle ever got rebuilt. If it worked it was good enough.
A Small or Bantam butt is the same size as a Normal or Long except for the length.
With Enfields in general parts on 'em depends a great deal on who imported the thing, Stateside, and when too.

So, my Savage No. 4 Mk 1* (previously pictured) was imported to the US. There are no import stampings on it.

I recently saw a No. 4 Mk 1* for sale that had "CAI Georgia, Vermont" stamped on the action. I assume Century Arms Intl. was the importer. I didn't see the odd initial or the date stamped near the serial number so it may have eluded the rebuilding process. This one had the alloy butt plate and looked rough and possibly all original. The serial number indicated it was made in 1943.

[JB White]

You would only find the importers billboard markings on rifles imported after the 1986 lift of the ban on foreign surplus arms. Prior to that the only import marking would have been the pre-1968 country of origin. Like the word 'ENGLAND" stamped on it. It seems many of the earlier rifles escaped those markings. Depends upon who and/or when it was brought back in.

Suffice to say that any British service arm on the surplus was imported into the USA by one means or another whether it was made in the USA or not. It could have also come from a host of different countries beside the UK who also used the Enfield rifle.
Post 1986 the markings varied in both location and size. On the action, on the barrel, above and below the wood line. Some were stamped while others were etched. The etched ones could be touched up with cold blue thereby hiding all visible traces. (Instant "non-import marked" rifle!) It took a few years before the BATF settled on an exact rule which they said they would enforce and meant it.

[Merc]

You would only find the importers billboard markings on rifles imported after the 1986 lift of the ban on foreign surplus arms. Prior to that the only import marking would have been the pre-1968 country of origin. Like the word 'ENGLAND" stamped on it. It seems many of the earlier rifles escaped those markings. Depends upon who and/or when it was brought back in.

Suffice to say that any British service arm on the surplus was imported into the USA by one means or another whether it was made in the USA or not. It could have also come from a host of different countries beside the UK who also used the Enfield rifle.
Post 1986 the markings varied in both location and size. On the action, on the barrel, above and below the wood line. Some were stamped while others were etched. The etched ones could be touched up with cold blue thereby hiding all visible traces. (Instant "non-import marked" rifle!) It took a few years before the BATF settled on an exact rule which they said they would enforce and meant it.

Thanks for the informative and interesting reply.

[jjrothWA]

I heard that a Brass buttplate was a sign that the rifle was issued by the Royal Navy.

I think they look great.

[Merc]

I heard that a Brass buttplate was a sign that the rifle was issued by the Royal Navy.

I think they look great.

Brass buttplates do dress up the Enfields and a link to the Royal Navy would be interesting. All rifles, regardless of the OEM or country of origin, are built with parts that have a specific purpose. Brass buttplates would be more expensive to produce when compared to steel or alloy buttplates but won't corrode when exposed to moisture or salt air.

There's something else that I noticed about Enfields. I've seen many of them for sale at gun shows and dealers with metal parts coated with a layer of black paint, mostly peeled. My own 1944 No. 4 Mk 1* Savage was painted although 90% or more was gone by the time I bought it several years ago. The 10 round mag had been painted but only the exposed portion. Obviously the purpose of the paint was to retard corrosion. Was that something that the factories did or was it a field modification?

[p246]

Suncorite was first adopted in 1944. It was done over park. The Sten was the first gun it was done on. The No5 mark 1 and later new No 4's were eventually done. Many No4s were refinished in park then Suncorite when FTR ed. As usual with commonwealth factories outside England things tended to happen later but not always.

Suncorite is tough but the original formula was nasty so anyone applying it needed to be fully protected. Several of my FTR ed rifles that saw a lot of use after refurb show a lot of Suncorite wear. I like the look but some don't.

The Brass buttplate was an older design. The alloy Buttplate was a cost saving measure during WW2. Ian Skinnertons book has a pretty detailed explanation of both. The alloy buttplate is supposed to be corrosion resistant also. I haven't tried any of mine in conditions that would prove or disprove that.

[Merc]

Suncorite was first adopted in 1944. It was done over park. The Sten was the first gun it was done on. The No5 mark 1 and later new No 4's were eventually done. Many No4s were refinished in park then Suncorite when FTR ed. As usual with commonwealth factories outside England things tended to happen later but not always.

Suncorite is tough but the original formula was nasty so anyone applying it needed to be fully protected. Several of my FTR ed rifles that saw a lot of use after refurb show a lot of Suncorite wear. I like the look but some don't.

The Brass buttplate was an older design. The alloy Buttplate was a cost saving measure during WW2. Ian Skinnertons book has a pretty detailed explanation of both. The alloy buttplate is supposed to be corrosion resistant also. I haven't tried any of mine in conditions that would prove or disprove that.

Thanks, very informative and sure fills in some blanks. I looked up Suncorite and it looks like it's still available under various names. Must be a very tough chemical. I guess when you live in Britain with all the rain and fog, you get used to taking those extra steps to fight corrosion.

I'll have to pick up a copy of Skinnerton's book to learn more about the Enields. Can you tell me the title?

[p246]

Thanks, very informative and sure fills in some blanks. I looked up Suncorite and it looks like it's still available under various names. Must be a very tough chemical. I guess when you live in Britain with all the rain and fog, you get used to taking those extra steps to fight corrosion.

I'll have to pick up a copy of Skinnerton's book to learn more about the Enields. Can you tell me the title?

The British Service Lee. There is a first edition and a 2nd. I have both. The 2nd has much better pics but the info is about the same. If you can find either it will be more than you can ever remember. If you go to milsurps.com Peter Laidler has numerous articles from the armorers side of British Service rifles, SMGs, and Bren. They are a very good read also.

The original Suncorite had a three digit number behind it. I can't remember the exact number. Maybe JB or one of the other Enfield guys remember. The Suncorite you can buy now is not the same formula. It's much more environmentally friendly. The original mix was nasty stuff when sprayed, so the person applying it should have a respirator on.

[Merc]

I looked around on Amazon.com for Skennerton's "The Broad Arrow" and found a used copy for $1600.

[p246]

I looked around on Amazon.com for Skennerton's "The Broad Arrow" and found a used copy for $1600.

I didn't buy that one either.....Must be one hell of a book

[JB White]

I heard that a Brass buttplate was a sign that the rifle was issued by the Royal Navy.

I think they look great.

Whoever told you that was blowing smoke to cover their lackings in things Enfield. Poor sod probably grew up playing connect the dots on a tablecloth.

The reason behind the alloy plates is very simple. During times of war, base metals such as brass, nickel, copper etc suddenly become precious towards the war effort. WW2 was a classic example. Brass was needed elsewhere and the war created a shortage.

I don't recall the Suncorite number. Although I jotted it down several times it never made it into my notes. The formula is highly carcinogenic and we can't buy it anymore. The closest thing available is the Suncorite formula used on black pipe. Most commonly seen on non potable water supplies such as fire sprinkler systems.

[JB White]

The broad arrow for $1600?? I'll sell you a copy for $160 and I will be ripping you off big time. Methinks $16 for a well used dogeared copy is more like it.

Unless you were looking at an autographed hard cover? Keep in mind Ian Skennerton has probably signed more autographs than MLB players and NASCAR drivers combined ;)

[Merc]

JB, Seeing is believing. Check out www.amazon.com and type in "Ian Skennerton The Broad Arrow." I left the seller a comment "Are you serious?"

[JB White]

I looked there and on abebooks. Holy Crapoli! It's a great book but it isn't the Gutenberg Bible.
That Amazon seller set his price in the middle. That's Crazy!
Did you look on Skennerton.com? Search under out of print titles. It's still listed there.

[JB White]

Keep looking. If worse comes to worse..probably isnt legal... You may need to borrow and photocopy. Won't be cheap but it will be a fraction of what they are gouging for.

[Merc]

I looked there and on abebooks. Holy Crapoli! It's a great book but it isn't the Gutenberg Bible.
That Amazon seller set his price in the middle. That's Crazy!
Did you look on Skennerton.com? Search under out of print titles. It's still listed there.

JB, It's crazy alright. Must be hugh demand for the book that drives the price that high, so make sure you keep your copy in the gun safe. I'd rather spend the money on a M1903 or possibly a M1.

[p246]

The broad arrow for $1600?? I'll sell you a copy for $160 and I will be ripping you off big time. Methinks $16 for a well used dogeared copy is more like it.

Unless you were looking at an autographed hard cover? Keep in mind Ian Skennerton has probably signed more autographs than MLB players and NASCAR drivers combined ;)

One of my books is signed by Skinnerton. I heard he loved to sign them at gun shows.

[Alan De Enfield]

Here are a few photo of my 1944 Savage No. 4. The "51" is right above the serial number on the wrist band. I assume "VNS" and "B" are inspector marks.



VNS is a manufacturers mark (Viners Ltd Sheffield UK - manufacturers of cutlery in peace time)

Edit to add : Whooops - I missed a page, I see it has already been answered.