View Full Version : National Match
Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
11-24-2016, 10:53
Found this photo,among many others, but this one simply had the notation "National Match". From the uniforms, I am guessing 1910? I recognize the location, as probably many of you do.
Can anyone verify my date guess?
Anyone recognize that Marine shooter?
jt:1948:
Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
11-25-2016, 04:03
How about these match rifles? That is the Army Trophy for 1903, and those guys were the winners. No 1903's but I thought the uniforms were interesting for dating.
jt:1948:
IditarodJoe
11-25-2016, 05:38
Trapdoors?
clintonhater
11-25-2016, 07:25
Trapdoors?
Of course, which would make me question the date of that trophy.
The guy on right, standing needs to have his pants tailored!
Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
11-25-2016, 09:29
Of course, which would make me question the date of that trophy.
The 1902 Army Trophy was won with Trapdoors also.
jt
The Thomas Pencil point bullets were used with the 30-40, 30-03 and 30-06 for match shooting during
the pre WW1 period but may have last longer38446
butlersrangers
11-25-2016, 11:35
I believe the OP's "National Match" photograph was taken at Sea Girt, New Jersey, based on the large distinctive white dwelling in the background.
The National Matches were started at Sea Girt in 1903, held at Fort Riley, Kansas, in 1904, and moved back to Sea Girt in 1905 & 1906.
The National Matches were first hosted at Camp Perry, Ohio, in 1907.
My guess is that, if the photograph was taken at the "National Matches" in New Jersey, it would date from 1905 or 1906. However, from what I understand, the Sea Girt Ranges continued in use for Rifle Matches by the N.J. National Guard and other states, at least, into the late 1930s.
Early (circa 1903) photos, taken at Sea Girt, show competitors shooting Krags.
National Guard competitors at Sea Girt, in 1908, were using model 1903 Springfields, (regional matches?).
The second photograph, showing a Trophy Winning Rifle Team with 'trap-door' Springfields, is quite interesting. I believe, the two seated officers are wearing 1902 'Bell Crown' Dress Caps. The men standing are wearing the model 1895 Kepi. (I am surprised at the apparent late use of model 1873 Springfield rifles in competition. The photo was taken in a studio. Could the 'trap-doors' be studio props??? There is an extra rifle standing alone in the left corner).
Attached photos: Part of the 1903 Army Team with Krags at Sea Girt - 1903 National Matches, Three photos from a N.G competition at Sea Girt, dated 9/4/08.
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Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
11-25-2016, 12:34
I believe the OP's "National Match" photograph was taken at Sea Girt, New Jersey, based on the large distinctive white dwelling in the background.
I agree as that building appears to be the Governor's summer residence.
The National Matches were started at Sea Girt in 1903, held at Fort Riley, Kansas, in 1904, and moved back to Sea Girt in 1905 & 1906.
The National Matches were first hosted at Camp Perry, Ohio, in 1907.
My guess is that, if the photograph was taken at the "National Matches" in New Jersey, it would date from 1905 or 1906. However, from what I understand, the Sea Girt Ranges continued in use for Rifle Matches by the N.J. National Guard and other states, at least, into the late 1930s.
Early (circa 1903) photos, taken at Sea Girt, show competitors shooting Krags.
I have a photo showing the Krags used by the winners.
National Guard competitors at Sea Girt, in 1908, were using model 1903 Springfields, (regional matches?).
The second photograph, showing a Trophy Winning Rifle Team with 'trap-door' Springfields, is quite interesting. I believe, the two seated officers are wearing 1902 'Bell Crown' Dress Caps. The men standing are wearing the model 1895 Kepi. (I am surprised at the apparent late use of model 1873 Springfield rifles in competition. The photo was taken in a studio. Could the 'trap-doors' be studio props??? There is an extra rifle standing alone in the left corner).
There is an earlier photo showing Trapdoors also.
Attached photos: Part of the 1903 Army Team with Krags at Sea Girt - 1903 National Matches, Three photos from a N.G competition at Sea Girt, dated 9/4/08.
Neat pictures. Thanks for responding. I was most curious about the trapdoors. Two of the three pictures I have of the Army Trophy winners show trapdoors.
jt
clintonhater
11-25-2016, 02:18
If the standing officer in the first photo isn't Townsend Whelen, it's his twin brother.
clintonhater
11-25-2016, 02:29
The 1902 Army Trophy was won with Trapdoors also.
jt
Could this have been a match restricted to trapdoors, because many National Guard units had not yet been issued Krags? If not, surprising if the winners in 1902 defeated teams shooting Krags.
butlersrangers
11-25-2016, 07:57
'clintonhater' is correct. - The 1903 National Match Army Team picture does show Townsend Whelen. He commanded the Team.
If the OP's 'National Match' picture was taken at Sea Girt and shows the N.J. Governor's 'Summer Cottage', it would have to date from after 1904. This building was originally the N.J. exhibit hall at the 1904 - St. Louis (Mo.) World's Fair. (Following the World's Fair, it was taken apart and reassembled at Sea Girt, N.J.).
1906 seems the likely date if the OP's picture is a National Match photograph.
I agree with 'clintonhater'. It is difficult to imagine .45-70 Springfield rifles "out-shooting" .30-40 Krag-Jorgensen rifles in "head to head" Military Team Competitions in the early 1900s.
butlersrangers
11-25-2016, 09:43
I wonder if the "Army Trophy" was a State team shooting prize that New Jersey N.G. shooters competed for prior to the establishment of the (DCM) National Matches in 1903.
On the N.J. State site there is a nice collection of N.J.N.G. and Sea Girt photos.
It appears the shooting team from Co. B, 3rd New Jersey Regiment, was a force to reckon with. They won the "Army Trophy" in 1901, 1902, and 1903!
(photos from N.J. State site):384843848538486
butlersrangers
11-25-2016, 09:59
FWIW: Sea Girt, N.J., 1904-dated, range pictures (The rifles are Krags):
384873848838489
clintonhater
11-26-2016, 09:16
However, from what I understand, the Sea Girt Ranges continued in use for Rifle Matches by the N.J. National Guard and other states, at least, into the late 1930s...
What, if anything, remains of the range? Devoured by the real-estate crooks?
This has been a very interesting and knowledgeable posting. But who is the Marine and is that the new WM blues? More info needed on this subject.
butlersrangers
11-26-2016, 05:24
Dabbling around on the internet, I discovered the young Captain, in the Co. B, 3rd N.J N.G. Regiment photographs, was Winfield S. Price. He served in the S.A.W. and WW1 and rose to the N.G. rank of Maj. General. He also became Mayor of Camden, N.J. I found one newspaper 'snippet' regarding his Shooting Career:
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Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
11-26-2016, 08:19
One more. This is the 1st NM at Sea Girt. Enjoy.
jt:hello:
Who cares. Repeat: "Who is the Marine?"
Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
11-27-2016, 04:31
She does look good in dress blues, eh Chaz?
I don't now her name, as I am in the "just looking" stage of life. No more "rent to own" for me.
jt
Our local boys, just a practicing their little hearts out.
http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x413/nf1e/WashingtonGunClub_zpsc7934c3a.jpg (http://s1180.photobucket.com/user/nf1e/media/WashingtonGunClub_zpsc7934c3a.jpg.html)http://
butlersrangers
11-27-2016, 09:31
'Louis' and 'Chaz' - Her name is Kelsie Vasquez.
The 'clue' is often in the picture.
3850438505
Do your own 'research'. You will enjoy it!
(p.s. - Jesse Hodge Photography, Denver Co.)
Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
11-27-2016, 09:46
I just realized she is naked. That is body paint. Sorry, guys. My mistake.
jt
Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
11-27-2016, 09:48
Our local boys, just a practicing their little hearts out.
http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x413/nf1e/WashingtonGunClub_zpsc7934c3a.jpg (http://s1180.photobucket.com/user/nf1e/media/WashingtonGunClub_zpsc7934c3a.jpg.html)http://
The guy on the right kinda looks like Pope, and the guy on the left kinda looks like Rowland. Interesting pic.
jt
clintonhater
11-27-2016, 10:40
The guy on the right kinda looks like Pope...
jt
Not Pope, I don't think, but whoever it is does have the best rifle--a Sharps Borchardt.
Reminds me of my teenage years going to a girls house for a date.
butlersrangers
11-27-2016, 02:06
Sharps-Borchardt! Now, we're talking.
(photo - Detroit Light Guard 1882)
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Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
11-27-2016, 04:43
Not Pope, I don't think, but whoever it is does have the best rifle--a Sharps Borchardt.
I like the '93 Marlin the third guy is holding. Maybe a 38-55?
jt
PhillipM
11-29-2016, 10:50
I saw a pic long ago of a chap named gunsling something. He was one of the first to loop up. He shot his TD prone sans sling on his back with the barrel supported by his crossed feet. Anyone remember his name? When did laying on the back go away?
Didn't Whelan keep shooting the Krag long after the 03 replaced it?
butlersrangers
11-29-2016, 11:17
The 'Back Position' probably fell out of favor when rifles got shorter and women started shooting!
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butlersrangers
11-29-2016, 11:36
Probably, improved Slings and Sling use as a shooting aid, led to more solid Prone Shooting, in the early 1900s. The shorter 1903 Springfield Service Rifle likely made the 'Back Position' downright unsafe!
Dr. Hudson still included the "Texas Grip" in his 1903 book, "Modern Rifle Shooting".
(p.s. In my State, we still use the "Michigan Grip". It is like the Texas Grip, but, with mittens).
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psteinmayer
11-30-2016, 05:13
I couldn't do that Texas grip. With my damaged shoulders, I can barely get my arms behind my head these days! Great picture though...
Man those sure are some great photos, thanks for sharing!
Does anyone here have pictures on the 1919 National Matches?
cplnorton
12-01-2016, 05:27
Does anyone here have pictures on the 1919 National Matches?
Georg, check out these 2 links. About anything you want to know on the 1919 NM's should be here. This is two online versions of the Man At Arms Magazine from the turn of the century to the 1920's. Each link seems to have a few more than the other, but between the two, there should be something there for you.
The 1919 NM's were at Caldwell NJ, it looks like. And it looks like they got there in early August, so look around the August/September 1919 Man at Arms magazines.
Actually if any of you research this timeframe, these magazines are awesome becuase it's all original first hand info. I've found a lot of cool stuff in these.
https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/011249450
http://www.cornellpubs.com/free-downloads-2_armsandtheman.php
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