WWI Air Service 1903

[Richard H Brown Jr]

Has anyone ever meathooked one of the WW1 air service 1903's?

Or even shot it?

Inquiring minds want to know.

RHB

[Smokeeaterpilot]

One "may" have sold via gunbroker a few weeks back. I say "may" since it's debatable whether or not it was a genuine Air Service Rifle. It was not advertised as such and the pictures were not helping it's case.

[Jeff L]

Tough to find a real one.

[03collector]

I see Morphy's auction has a air service rifle coming up for auction. Also a 1922 Heavy Barrel match rifle.

[Promo]

Where at Morphy's did you see this? To me it shows the catalogue is still unavilable.

[03collector]

The ad was in the last martial arms collector magazine. The auction is in February 2017.

[Promo]

Well, no wonder I couldn't find it on their website then .. do they provide any additional information or pictures?

[03collector]

The catalog is not out yet.

[03collector]

It will be interesting to see what it goes for. Don't have the air service rifle. But the other rifle up for auction. The 1922 heavy barrel i do have.

[03collector]

As far as additional info. im sure you could get it if you ask them.

[Col. Colt]

I have what appears to be an actual Air Service Handguard - and in fifty years of attending gunshows, I have never seen a complete Air Service rifle to handle. Lots of high cap magazines, but not much else. CC

[Richard H Brown Jr]

Now all you need, is research the Sprinfield Armory files at NARA or SAHS, and see if you can come up with the dwgs for the Air Service Magazine parts, and find a 'tin basher' who can make up a repro magazine. and try it out in a rifle.

R Brown

[Col. Colt]

Several odd parts on the Air Service - like no rear sling swivel cut or lightening cuts in the stock, and the Enfield (?) band. The rear sight doesn't look too hard to duplicate. You can still find the big 20 round magazine - usually in the box - for $800-1000! CC

[cplnorton]

Now all you need, is research the Sprinfield Armory files at NARA or SAHS, and see if you can come up with the dwgs for the Air Service Magazine parts, and find a 'tin basher' who can make up a repro magazine. and try it out in a rifle.

R Brown

I saw this digging in a ordnance manual from Nov 1918.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/Fullscreen%20capture%2012212016%20115024%20AM.bmp_ zpspvsym2kz.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/Fullscreen%20capture%2012212016%20115114%20AM.bmp_ zpsvsojtr5b.jpg

[Promo]

I somewhere have the original drawings for the stock, but couldn't find them on my iPad.

[Smokeeaterpilot]

The Air Service Rifles are interesting. Another faired experimental design. At the time of the development of the Air Service Rifle, the Aviation Bureau was already looking into adding a machine gun for the defenseless observer, which made the Air Service Rifle obsolete.

Taken from a memorandum from the AEF HQ dated May 15, 1918 concerning the 1903 modified for Air Service emergency use.

"It is the opinion of this section it is a waste of money to purchase emergency arms for airplane use and it is a waste of tonnage to bring them to Europe. The emergency arm is a relic of airplane warefare as it previously existed."

"If we consider the actual state of affairs on our own front today, we find that the 1st Aero Squadron (Observation), which is the only two-seater aero squadron on our front, only one observer out of eighteen in the Squadron even thinks of carrying an emergency arm."

The Air Service Rifle may have saw some use in Europe, but the documentation points to that it saw limited at best and was not well received.

[Kaliman]

One "may" have sold via gunbroker a few weeks back. I say "may" since it's debatable whether or not it was a genuine Air Service Rifle. It was not advertised as such and the pictures were not helping it's case.

Is that the one I sent you? If so, what were your thoughts on it once you got better pictures ?

[Smokeeaterpilot]

Is that the one I sent you? If so, what were your thoughts on it once you got better pictures ?

It was the rifle in question. I honestly don't know if the rifle is genuine or not. When it comes to traits, finishes and authentic vs "made," I leave that to the experts.

The documentation and correspondence on the Air Service Rifle I obtained at the NARA, mostly indicated that at the time the rifle was being produced by Springfield Armory, the Air Service Bureau had other ideas in mind for the unarmed observer and that it was never adopted and standard equipment. It does indicate some were used in VERY limited amounts on the front, although a specific number was not indicated. It seems that its service life was limited at best.

It also indicates a large portion were found at Raritan Arsenal in storage after WWI in unserviceable condition and that "when funds become available" (which is a very important quotation considering the funds available post WWI for the Ordnance Department) they are to be shipped to Springfield Armory to be repaired. In my opinion, that means they were to be turned back into service rifles and reissued. But I can't say that definitively. If that actually happened and they met I different fate, I am not quite sure.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

According to one of Gen Pershing's communications to ANWAR, Pershing recommended "stripped" 1903 rifles with 10-round magazines be issued to pilots and bombers for use until the Browning Automatics arrived. Pershing would need 825 of these "emergency rifles" by 1 June 1918. It wasn't long after that time they started issuing Brownings. Pershing had ordered 5,000 riot guns already and would order shotguns for aviation as required. Looks like both rifles and shotguns were used by Aviation.

jt

[Smokeeaterpilot]

According to one of Gen Pershing's communications to ANWAR, Pershing recommended "stripped" 1903 rifles with 10-round magazines be issued to pilots and bombers for use until the Browning Automatics arrived. Pershing would need 825 of these "emergency rifles" by 1 June 1918. It wasn't long after that time they started issuing Brownings. Pershing had ordered 5,000 riot guns already and would order shotguns for aviation as required. Looks like both rifles and shotguns were used by Aviation.

jt

It does not look like rifles or shotguns were used by the air service in large numbers in France. At least by the American flyers.
Taken from an investigation discussed at the the 3rd Armry HQ November 1917 concerning emergency arms for pilots, it stated: “The emergency arm must be one with automatic repetition, and it seems that the Winchester would be proper, notwithstanding the feeble initial speed of its projectile, because it is only to be used short range, 50 meters maximum, unless the fire necessitates no ranging. However, it would be of great interest if the arm was more powerful, the Winchester caliber 401 particularly would be more convenient because of the size of the projectile and of its greater initial speed. Moreover, all the bullets of the emergency arms should be either incendiary or explosive bullets.
It makes no mention of a Remington automatic shotguns or Browning Automatics. If there was a Winchester automatic shotgun, it could be referencing that in the first sentence. I’m not sure. I don’t know if there was one at that time.
May 1918, a memorandum from the Chief of Staff stated: “our Air service is planning to mount two flexible machine guns, connected together by a jumelle, for the use of each airplane observer. They mention shipping emergency arms to France would be a waste of funding and tonnage.
October 1918, the General staff disapproves of the proposition of an emergency armament. They still request that the Air Service Rifle be given extensive testing for use as emergency weapons and if found desirable they would reopen the matter.
Early November 1918, the Head of the Aircraft Armament Section stated there is absolutely no demand for reserve rifles for use as emergency weapons by the observers. He goes further to recommend that the 680 Air Service Rifles be issued to dispatch riders and automobile protection, as they could be better use there. He further states that they were in storage at the time (except for the 25 used for testing at the front lines).
The trail of document starts to end around 1920 when Springfield Armory Commanding Officer issues a revision to 3 drawing number items of the Air Service Rifle. The Small Arms Division Chief states that the article in question is no longer in use and probably never will be used again and it would be a waste of time and money to update the revision and they can take up if the article see use in the future.
I did find the equipment list and allotments for Squadrons. It lists all equipment right down to the number of spoons, forks, clothing, etc. each squadron should have. It makes no mention an emergency armament in its standard equipment.

The sequence of events points to the fact that the Air Service rifle saw almost no use outside the 25 used for experimental testing. It also indicates that the emergency rifle was never regarded as a high priority item. It may have gotten some traction early on, but it seemed to be a low priority item at best. It alludes the Air Service Bureau was more concerned with equipping the rear observer with a machine gun rather than an emergency arm. There are gaps in the dates, however everything keeps pointing back to only 25 Air Service Rifles saw use in experimental purposes only and the Chief of Staff and Air Service Bureau did not pursue an emergency arm in widespread numbers.

[cplnorton]

Really nice write up Andrew. Thank you, I learned a lot. :)

[Roadkingtrax]

Really nice write up Andrew. Thank you, I learned a lot. :)

I'd say we all did. Very refreshing to see something new come across the forum for a change. Thanks for sharing!

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

For what it is worth, the wording of the communications between Pershing and ANWAR is as follows, dated 4/15/1918.

"With reference to (your communication) our requirements for shot guns at present, taken care of in order of 5,000 riot guns. Shot guns for aviation will be ordered as required".

"For Chief Signal Officer and Chief of Ordnance. With reference to (your communication). Recommend adoption stripped Springfield with 10 round magazines as emergency rifle until lightweight Browning rifle is available. 825 emergency rifles needed by June 1st".
Pershing

I found several other references by Pershing to the ASR. It appears Pershing intended to arm Aviation with BAR's (and return the Lewis guns to the Corps). Not sure what actually happened, but rather than the Lewis guns being returned, the Corps was armed with a limited number of BAR's late in the war.

At one point, they considered the 351 Winchester.879+879+79

jt

[cplnorton]

I didn't really spend very much time looking for this stuff, because this is outside my collector interest. But I was just curious. But seeing just a few of the cables in order. It looks like they were throwing out ideas on what to use as the Emergency rifle, and never really getting a final confirmation or approval. Because you see them ask several times what rifle are we going to use? To me it looks like they still didn't know what was going on in June 1918, and finally just said screw it, and decided not to have a Emergency Aviation rifle.

I really think it's matching up with what Andrew is saying though. The Air Service 1903 was just a failed design that never was approved. And it looks like the Air Service never offiically adopted anything from what I can see, as the Emergency rifle.

But here are the cables I found in order. If someone wanted to dig more, you might find a few more. All these Pershing cables are online and keyword searchable, so they are pretty easy to navigate and go through.

Andrew might be able to add more. His stuff is coming from the archives, which would be the Ordnance side of this, which would be much more clearer on what was actually happening.

Nov 1917

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/air%20service%20rifle/nov%201917_zpsxeny2onr.jpg

Dec 30th 1917

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/air%20service%20rifle/Dec%2030%201917_zps96nfw857.jpg

Jan 9, 1918

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/air%20service%20rifle/jan%209%201918_zpsirxqll7x.jpg

March 9, 1918

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/air%20service%20rifle/march%209%201918_zpsrqtq7ksg.jpg

April 15th, 1918

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/air%20service%20rifle/April%2015th_zpsiwlprgui.jpg

May 31st, 1918

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/air%20service%20rifle/may%2031%201918_zpsee2w6so8.jpg

June 13, 1918

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/air%20service%20rifle/june%2013%201918_zps0puyb2ku.jpg

June 25, 1918

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/air%20service%20rifle/june%2025%201918_zpses1iflnx.jpg