View Full Version : An interesting 1866 Allen
Here's a neat 1866 trapdoor that just happened to arrive on the same day my 1868 did! That was pretty nice.
The stock appears to have never been cleaned, sanded, worn or damaged. The face of the breechblock looks clean and I cannot see any indication that the rifle has been fired. Somebody. Smarter than me could tell you for sure!
The bore is absolutely Mint.
the front sight, tho unworn, is not as narrow at the top of the blade as is the front sight on my 1868 No. 6 rifle.
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Sure is a nice looking rifle. What does the underside of the breech block look like?
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Looks very familiar did you happen to buy it on gunbroker from a user going by p246. If so I can tell you where the guns been since the 1960s. If not very nice example and I've only seen one other one as nice.
Yes, it's the same one. It IS a nice rifle, isn't it!
So Please tell me what you know of the rifle!
Thanks for the additional pictures Fred. I have a couple of butchered 1866 2nd Allin's myself and always enjoy the looks of one that appears original.
very nice... thank you for sharing it
Fred I'll have time late this afternoon and will type it out. Before selling it I took it to an old local civil war collector, who due to health, is no longer buying. When I handed it to him his response was,My god this thing had to have spent its military life in barracks stores, then been loved by every previous owner. He then got out several of his examples, none of which were as nice. His sales appraisal was spot on by the way. As I was leaving he said, you know if I was a younger man you wouldn't be leaving with that box wagon". More to follow tonight.
Dick Hosmer
12-16-2016, 02:25
Fred I'll have time late this afternoon and will type it out. Before selling it I took it to an old local civil war collector, who due to health, is no longer buying. When I handed it to him his response was,My god this thing had to have spent its military life in barracks stores, then been loved by every previous owner. He then got out several of his examples, none of which were as nice. His sales appraisal was spot on by the way. As I was leaving he said, you know if I was a younger man you wouldn't be leaving with that box wagon". More to follow tonight.
An allusion, no doubt, to the M'66 surprising Red Cloud at the Battle of the Wagon Boxes, on the Bozeman Trail in 1867. Sadly of course, those rifles would have had the first type block without cap. As an "old" collector he may not have known the difference. VERY nice 1866, no matter what, better than mine - which is pretty crisp.
Barracks stores for sure. It' doesn't appear to have ever seen Field Use. Maybe it was part of a Bannerman special regarding unopened cases of stored away 1866's.
An allusion, no doubt, to the M'66 surprising Red Cloud at the Battle of the Wagon Boxes, on the Bozeman Trail in 1867. Sadly of course, those rifles would have had the first type block without cap. As an "old" collector he may not have known the difference. VERY nice 1866, no matter what, better than mine - which is pretty crisp.
Correct Dick, when you go to Joes its a two hours history lesson. Upon seeing it he, from memory told me the difference between the first type and second type. He recounted the battle of the Wagon Boxes among others. He also pulled out a photo of Bill Cody holding what I think he said was the type two Allen. He then pulled out two second types and one first type. He showed me the differences and why he thought the changes were made. He is frail in his old age but I think his mind is in better shape than mine.
Barracks stores for sure. It' doesn't appear to have ever seen Field Use. Maybe it was part of a Bannerman special regarding unopened cases of stored away 1866's.
Joe also suspected it might have been from Bannerman purchase of unopened cases of1866's. The condition of the stock and metal were the main players in that opinon.
The owner is a old collector friend of mine named Chuck. Chuck and his father collected milsurps for decades, his father passing in the 90's Chuck inherited everything his father had collected. He also continued to collect until about 2005. His collection is, well it fills a basement. Rifles, bayonets, web gear, helmets, uniforms, its amazing. He has two children and neither are interested in the collection. His motivation for selling them is his kids have no idea what it is and he might as well sell it and they can inherit cash.
A few years ago Chuck began to sell a few British items, since that's my main collection interest I bought a few very nice Lee Enfields and bayonets from him. Unlike everone else if his price was fair I did not try and beat him down. If he was high I just asked about something else. I think he appreciated this and although friends before that sure didn't hurt. Eventually he asked if I would sell a few things on the internet for him, and I have. He releases stuff slowly as some of it is difficult for him to party with.
Your rifle was purchased by his father in the mid 1960's. Chuck got out of the Marine Corps in 1964 and he remembers it was after he got back, so late 64 or 1965. He thinks his father bought it at Mayfields Hardware store in Independence, Mo. Mayfields was a 1/2 hardware store 1/2 milsurp store. The owner had good contacts and got a lot of neat items in. Now Chucks father also hit every gun show in the Kansas City Metro area, so it his memory is off it would have been a gun show purchase.
His father and he were very good keepers of their collection. His father would once a year put a light layer of one part linseed oil three parts turpentine on a cotton rag. He would then wipe down all the woodwork. This was described as more keep it clean than anything else. He would also oil the metal and punch the bores with a wet patch followed by a dry patch. Odd enough neither him nor Chuck were shooters and they never shot any of their rifles. They did shoot a few of their milsurp pistols.
When Chuck inherited stuff he kept this up till about 2014. His health declined to where he just couldn't do it. I would like to have bought that gun but I bought the type 1 Navy Rolling Block out of the group of older guns. If you look on gunbroker on my listings you will see a 1831 Nathan Starr Contract musket and a 1890 cartouched Springfield Trapdoor. Chuck and his dad had a very particular way how each gun was put back in their racks. He had a wood rack with all the older stuff in it. In the first slot was the Nathan Starr, in the second slot was your Allen Conversion, in the third slot was the Type 1 Navy, in the fourth slot was the 1890 trapdoor, and in the fifth slot was another Trapdoor that was a cut down rifle. If anyone had moved them out of place his head would snap to that rack and he would fix it. It seems strange seeing only the cut down trapdoor in that rack now, but that's how life works. (The cut down trapdoor has an interesting story of its own for another time).
I hope you enjoy it and it defiantly went to a good home. Its also nice to see a rifle sold to someone you kinda know from the interweb.
Hey I really appreciate the information! I grew up in Kansas City and often drove through Independence. I used to know and visit with old Barney Joe Davies who lived On Truman Road. Barney was one of the old timers who collected and sold and traded antique Firearms in Kansas City since before WWII. I'll bet that Chucks dad knew him.
The rifle is neat. I noticed that while everything on the 1866 was new and unused, the lock plate was off of another rifle. That plate was dented, pitted, scratched and worn quite a bit on the edges. So what probably happened was that the rifle was part of a lot that had their locks pulled and cleaned or oiled before being put away in storage. The lock to this rifle must've gone onto another during reassembly of the rifles.
That happens. Anyway, I'd recently acquired a pristine 1864 dated lock plate of the correct type (this rifle originally being an 1864 or 1863 Type II Rifled Musket made in 1864) so I just mounted it on this rifle. Now everything is as it was. The rifle is going to be shot along with my 1868's. Anyone need an old 1863 lock?
I remember seeing the rifle after reading a post about it here on this site. I wanted to buy it then but had to sell some items first. Thanks for letting us all know about it! It took a little while but I finaly got it.
I'd love to hear how it shoots...
Major Tom
12-17-2016, 04:41
I love to read about trapdoors in this context.
Correct Dick, when you go to Joes its a two hours history lesson. Upon seeing it he, from memory told me the difference between the first type and second type. He recounted the battle of the Wagon Boxes among others. He also pulled out a photo of Bill Cody holding what I think he said was the type two Allen. He then pulled out two second types and one first type. He showed me the differences and why he thought the changes were made. He is frail in his old age but I think his mind is in better shape than mine.
That's REALLY Neat information! Old Barney Joe was the same way. All of those old collectors were pretty interesting men weren't they!
I should add Joe has no internet. He has stacks of books, copies of articles etc. He walked over to a three ring binder and pulled an article over the box car incident. He pulled out another binder with an article on Erskin Allen. I hope my mind is 1/2 as sharp as his when I get his age.
As a side note Joe was a rifleman in the Berlin Brigade I think from 61 to 63. His unit was the first to receive the first magazine fed Garand with improved gas system....his words. I think the rest of you old grunts called them M 14s. He always said it was a multi role gun in full auto. First three rds were for landwarfar, next 17 was for anti aircraft protection.
I should add Joe has no internet. He has stacks of books, copies of articles etc. He walked over to a three ring binder and pulled an article over the box car incident. He pulled out another binder with an article on Erskin Allen. I hope my mind is 1/2 as sharp as his when I get his age.
As a side note Joe was a rifleman in the Berlin Brigade I think from 61 to 63. His unit was the first to receive the first magazine fed Garand with improved gas system....his words. I think the rest of you old grunts called them M 14s. He always said it was a multi role gun in full auto. First three rds were for landwarfar, next 17 was for anti aircraft protection.
10-4 on that I trained at Ft. Ord with the M1 grand in 61 loved it. They had some of the then new M14's so we got to handle, disassemble them and trial fire, terrible gun. the guy's coming back from Nam into my unit at Ft. Knox were saying that all the guy's that could get rid of the 14 and pick up a Grand would do so in a heartbeat same with the early M16's they hated them. M1's were reliable, accurate, and had more fire power over the 7.62 NATO round in the 14's and the 16's jammed at the drop of a hat if dirt was nearby.
Jim O
Edatbeach
12-17-2016, 11:34
No one has pointed out that your M1866 has a single cartouche-- that means it was one of those assembled for sale at the time of the Franco-Prussian War, in 1871. It never saw issue in the U.S. Dealers Hartley & Graham bought and brought back several hundred in the late 1890s, and sold them to Sears Roebuck and other retailers. They had been in storage in Europe for over two decades.
No one has pointed out that your M1866 has a single cartouche-- that means it was one of those assembled for sale at the time of the Franco-Prussian War, in 1871. It never saw issue in the U.S. Dealers Hartley & Graham bought and brought back several hundred in the late 1890s, and sold them to Sears Roebuck and other retailers. They had been in storage in Europe for over two decades.
Interesting observation
Kragrifle
12-18-2016, 07:40
Dick, an you explain the early and late blocks and presence of caps? Also was just looking at your book-comments on presence of lightening cuts in breechblocks of what I thought were earliest full length 1866 muskets?
Dick Hosmer
12-18-2016, 09:46
I cannot quickly lay my hands on all of my background notes, etc. Some of them may even have been discarded. The history of the Model 1866 is cloudy at best, and others (particulary Ed Hull and Al Frasca) know way more about it than I do. This makes hard and fast statements difficult, as parts were known to have been mixed. I would guess that a small book could be written on that model alone, but that was not my intent when writing my little guide.
The thumblatch retention system on approximately the first 7000 was similar to that of the preceding M1865 - a small screw, entering through a hole in the left side of the block was threaded into the small end of the shaft. Removal of said screw allowed the thumblatch to be pulled out from the right. The shaft had a square which aligned the (loose) locking cam. The rest of M1866 production had the cam made integral to the shaft, all held in by the familiar screw-retained cap on the right side, common to all later trapdoors made up through the 1890s.
The block with the lightening cuts - was nominally intended for the Model 1867 Cadet, as a weight-saving device. Those arms were truly miniaturized to an almost ridiculous degree - even the band springs were reduced in size! While I now own a Model 1867 Cadet, I did not at the time of writing my book. All I can say is that the lightened block is known with both types of thumblatch, and that lightened blocks have shown up in full-length rifles - whether this is "correct" or not, I do not know, but I suspect it arises from the afore-mentioned mixing.
Hope that helps.
No one has pointed out that your M1866 has a single cartouche-- that means it was one of those assembled for sale at the time of the Franco-Prussian War, in 1871. It never saw issue in the U.S. Dealers Hartley & Graham bought and brought back several hundred in the late 1890s, and sold them to Sears Roebuck and other retailers. They had been in storage in Europe for over two decades.
Facinating information! Thank you!
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There're not much in the way of signs of use on this 1866. The wood still has the fuzzy textured grain of newly assembled weapons from Springfield Armory.
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No one has pointed out that your M1866 has a single cartouche-- that means it was one of those assembled for sale at the time of the Franco-Prussian War, in 1871. It never saw issue in the U.S. Dealers Hartley & Graham bought and brought back several hundred in the late 1890s, and sold them to Sears Roebuck and other retailers. They had been in storage in Europe for over two decades.
Edatbeach, I want to thank you again for sharing what you know about this old rifle! I don't know where I'd ever be able to find that information!
Thanks again!
Edatbeach
12-19-2016, 11:01
The complete story of the M1866 & M1868 rifles that the SA assembled in 1871 is in the April 2001 issue of The Gun Report.
Thank you Very much for that information Edatbeach!
Kragrifle
12-20-2016, 05:55
Note the lack of the fancy script N behind the trigger guard seen on most 2nd Allins.
Yes. Is that N on the Issued 1866's? The script N Is however on my early #6 1868 Rifle which has a converted 1866 stock.
Dan Shapiro
12-20-2016, 04:16
Dick Hosmer advised me that the script "N" indicated that the weapon had been issued with a new stock, rather than the one it had originally come with.
That explains it being on my early 1868 with its converted 1866 stock. Neat! Thanks!
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Kragrifle
12-21-2016, 05:55
Having only seen less than 100, very few I have seen did not have the script N which makes me think the original stocks were marked with the N.
That sounds reasonable to me. I'm open to any and all ideas and knowledge you guys have!
http://www.jouster.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38983&stc=1Here is a photo I just now took of the bore on this 1866. The light source is the reflection of the morning sunlight off of the Ejector.
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