Captured (or "obtained") Spanish Mauser carbine from Cuba

[Rick the Librarian]

Obviously not "Krag" in nature but since it pertained (I think) to the Spanish-American War-era in Cuba, I thought this might be of interest.

I had a gentleman email me with the following pictures of a Model 1894 Spanish Mauser carbine he had obtained via auction not too long ago. It is obviously a presentation rifle of some sort, but it (apparently) was obtained in Cuba in 1897 and presented in 1899.

I did a quick Yahoo search on both the United Service Club of Philadelphia and Randolph Clay and didn't turn anything up. I thought some of you folks might like to take a look: (More pictures on next post below)

3878138782387833878438785

[Rick the Librarian]

More pictures:

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[Rick the Librarian]

Last ones:

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[butlersrangers]

Thanks for sharing the photos of the Spanish model 1891 carbine, Rick. (Made by Loewe in 1894 and for the 7.65X53mm Mauser cartridge).

I believe a lot of the model 1891 Spanish Mausers were captured in Cuba. I suspect the 1891s were surrendered, rather than model 1893 Spanish Mausers in 7X57mm. Most Spanish troops surrendered with 'Honors' and returned to Spain with their rifles.

IIRC - A lot of the captured rifles, that were model 1893 Spanish Mausers, came off captured Spanish ships.

[Rick the Librarian]

You can see what I know about Mausers - I should have noticed the "bare" magazine, which definitely i.d.ed it as a pre-1893. Anything significant about the fact it said it was gotten in 1897?

[11mm]

I have one such carbine, and have researched them to the degree that the books and internet supports that.
The carbines of which there were 5 to 10 thousand made(and a number of rifles any of which are yet to be found) were purchased while at still at the Loewe company from the Argentine government, by the Spanish in 1893. The purchase was made because 1) The 1893 was not in production yet, and the Spaniards were engaged in a war with the Rifs in Melilla, Morocco. They wanted modern smokeless arms, but were pretty much stuck with Rolling Blocks for the time being and 2) The Argentines were embarrassed for funds just at that time, and were happy to sell a portion of what the Loewe firm was producing. The carbines are the 1891 Argentine model, except that they were intercepted early enough in manufacture so that there is no real reference to Argentina on them, except possibly some acceptance marks on parts. Otherwise, they would have the Argentine Crest, and say Model Argentino, like the rest of the 1891s. As is, they have the Arms of Spain on the receiver, like the 1893 rifles.*
The carbines did not arrive in Spain until sometime in 1894, by which time the war was over in N. Africa....for the time being. (This last is a consensus of some internet sources)
As these carbines did not fit in with the now available 7mm 1893 Mauser, logistically, it is said ( note that statement) that they were sent Cuba, because an island colony was not then integral with the rest of the Spanish Army requirements. It did not matter (I suppose for the present) that Cuba was using a different cartridge from the rest of the Spanish.
Some were captured by US forces (1898) and were allegedly sold to and by Bannerman and maybe others.

So, their existence in Cuba in or before 1897 is documented. Maybe some got into the hands of guerrillas and some American political supporter of the Cuban Revolution or journalist got one from them. That would make one available for presentation in 1897, as Americans were visiting the rebels prior to 1898. Of course, why would insurrectos give up a modern weapon to a journalist?

*See Webster, Colin : Argentine Mauser Rifles 1871-1959, p. 123-124. For one version of this story. A different version is in Robert W.D.. Ball Mauser Military Rifles of the World, 4th edition

[Rick the Librarian]

Excellent rundown ...thanks!!:icon_salut:

[butlersrangers]

U.S. Naval forces apparently attempted land attacks and were repulsed at Pinar del Rio, Cuba, on April 30, 1898, and May 4, 1898. (Maybe the 1897 date is a mistake)?

It is likely, the 'United Service Club' was a 'Soldier/Sailor Veteran Aid Society' in Philadelphia following the SAW.

Randolph Clay was the name of one of the sons of a (departed) former U.S. Russia Ambassador, from Philadelphia. Possibly, Randolph was a benefactor to a Veteran Aid Society and donated this war trophy Mauser, in 1899, to help raise funds (charity auction item)?

[jon_norstog]

That's a new one on me, Rick. I thought the only rifles the US troops faced were the '03 Mausers in 7x57mm.. Learn something new every daY!

jn

[11mm]

That's a new one on me, Rick. I thought the only rifles the US troops faced were the '03 Mausers in 7x57mm.. Learn something new every daY!

jn

Apparently, Cuban militia who took the part of the Spanish government rather than that of the rebels, were armed with Remington Rolling Blocks in 11mm and/or 11mm reformado. I doubt if the American troops faced them in battle, but maybe...

[jon_norstog]

Apparently, Cuban militia who took the part of the Spanish government rather than that of the rebels, were armed with Remington Rolling Blocks in 11mm and/or 11mm reformado. I doubt if the American troops faced them in battle, but maybe...

Well if they didn't face them in Cuba they sure did in the Philippines.

jn

[butlersrangers]

The late John Wall, on the 'gunboards forum', researched and edited The Army Ordnance Department reports of Spanish Mauser sales. (The Ord. Dept. produced a final inventory, dated 26 January,1904, when the last of the Mausers had been sold).

John made a correction to his earlier posting, a list (by 'model') of the Mauser rifles and carbines held by the O.D. at the Armory for sale: " ... The Argentine pattern carbines in this list have different and updated figures: 187 arrived by rail at the Armory in late 1898. 26 were sold during the two-day auction in January, 1899. The remainder were purchased by Francis Bannerman."

(My observation - 'Argentine pattern' was used by U.S. Ordnance to describe the model 1891 Spanish Mauser carbines in 7.65X53mm. There are some Spanish model 1891 carbines and rifles that have no Crest and the Argentine marking on the left receiver wall.

Argentine Pattern Rifles, numbering 1,999, and Turkish [?] Pattern Rifles, numbering 104, were priced at $8.25, without bayonet. Argentine Pattern Carbines, numbering 154 [later increased to 187], were priced at $8.25).

(Additional observation - Spanish Pattern rifles, numbering 7,207, caliber 7mm, with bayonet [model 1893 rifles], were priced at $9.00. Spanish Carbines, numbering 425, caliber 7mm [model 1893 carbines], were priced at $8.25).

Note - "The prices were for arms in lots of not less than 10. If less than 10 arms are desired the price will be 25% higher ...."

[butlersrangers]

BTW - I could not help but notice the 'crescent moon', on the bolt-shroud of the Spanish model 1891 carbine, in the photo that Rick posted. It appears this is very common on the captured Spanish carbines. Some 'overrun' small parts were utilized from the Turkish Mauser contract.

[11mm]

BTW - I could not help but notice the 'crescent moon', on the bolt-shroud of the Spanish model 1891 carbine, in the photo that Rick posted. It appears this is very common on the captured Spanish carbines. Some 'overrun' small parts were utilized from the Turkish Mauser contract.

According to Webster, the "half moon" which he shows as a sketch, was a standard Argentine acceptance mark. I would not think a half moon as shown is a definitive Turkish mark, though it may actually have been used on Turkish contract rifles. Loewe seems to have used a number of distinctive marks which may have no specific reference to a national contract.Not to say they did not use over-run parts...

[butlersrangers]

'11mm' - These 'Spanish Captures' are quite fascinating!

[PhillipM]

Netflix just released a multi episode series, Cuba Libre describing Cuba's history. On a tangent, some of the archival footage shows 1903 Springfields. How did they get to Cuba?

[Rick the Librarian]

The United States occupied Cuba off and on through abut 1912.

[11mm]

BTW - I could not help but notice the 'crescent moon', on the bolt-shroud of the Spanish model 1891 carbine, in the photo that Rick posted. It appears this is very common on the captured Spanish carbines. Some 'overrun' small parts were utilized from the Turkish Mauser contract.
I have since checked some 1891 Argentine Mausers I have, as well as two 1893 Spanish, and one 1893 Turkish. The half moon appears on the Turkish model near that spot, and does not appear on the others. My 1891 Spanish carbine is not here, so I don't have it to check. However, your suspicion is right. The one shown in the original post probably has at least that one surplus Turkish part.

[butlersrangers]

Are the "flaming bomb" marked parts to denote Spanish contract parts?
38846

[11mm]

Are the "flaming bomb" marked parts to denote Spanish contract parts?
38846
I'll look at my rifles after I get back from where I am for Christmas.

[Rick the Librarian]

Gentleman ...thanks for all the informative replies, they were most interesting, as was the rifle.

[11mm]

Are the "flaming bomb" marked parts to denote Spanish contract parts?
38846
Quite possibly the flaming bomb was a Spanish mark at one time. My 1893 rifles, which are originals from the 1898 war period, possibly captures, do not have the bomb. None of my Argentine rifles or carbines have it.

[5MadFarmers]

Obviously not "Krag" in nature but since it pertained (I think) to the Spanish-American War-era in Cuba, I thought this might be of interest.

I had a gentleman email me with the following pictures of a Model 1894 Spanish Mauser carbine he had obtained via auction not too long ago. It is obviously a presentation rifle of some sort, but it (apparently) was obtained in Cuba in 1897 and presented in 1899.

I did a quick Yahoo search on both the United Service Club of Philadelphia and Randolph Clay and didn't turn anything up. I thought some of you folks might like to take a look: (More pictures on next post below)

3878138782387833878438785

Howsabout I paint a story without any diversion into "American capture" as that, as they say, is facts not in evidence and is contraindicated.

In 1897 there was some severe fighting in Pinar del Rio; General Weyler and his Spanish forces against the rebels. That would account for the "1897" and location.

Let's say, for whatever reason, the gun was presented to Mr. Clay by the Spanish at the time. Perhaps he owned a tobacco plantation or whatever.

Let's fast forward to 1899. The "United Service Club" was more or less the "USO" before the USO existed. They used to have lodging for wayward soldiers and sailors and, periodically, had "talks" where whatever leading light would give a talk. Let's further presume that, as the tag indicates, Mr. Clay presented that to the club in 1899. Why? Because of the recent war there was renewed interest in all things Cuban and Spanish due to our war. Nowhere does it claim that it was captured by U.S. forces though and it'd be highly unlikely that anyone capturing it in, say, 1898 would know it had been at Pinar del Rio in 1897. Furthermore, if it had been captured by U.S. forces one would expect that location and date to also be noted.

Interesting gun but the entire "American Capture" guessing seems to have tacked to port quite severely. Looks like an item presented to an American who "regifted" it to the club.