View Full Version : #5 Jungle Carbine...
I am watching what looks like a excellent condition #5 BSA "jungle carbine," but it is a fake. It has a 6 digit serial number, the bolt & receiver do not match...
I'm just not sure why anybody would go to all the expensive trouble to make a fake...
The dude at the Pawn Shop is stuck on $255.
bigedp51
12-22-2016, 07:43
I have a Winchester 30-30 "Jungle Carbine" with a 16 1/2 inch barrel and for some reason the metal butt plate on the longer Enfield rifles are softer. :evil6:
http://i.imgur.com/eNMuChI.jpg
The Winchester 30-30 above with the factory 16 1/2 inch barrel is called the "trapper model" and a longer and heavier Enfield rifle is more fun shooting off the bench.
I see fakes all the time. More than one company made them in the past, so there had to be money to be made at some time. No1 mark III and III*s and No4 's turned into No 5s. Some original parts are getting hard to find so the forgeries might slow down. $255.00 must be close to what they have in it if they won't come off.
JB White
12-23-2016, 10:43
Fakes were commercially made to make surplus arms more desirable. Others were faked by their owners simply for the cool factor. Numrich sold cobbled up 'conversion kits' for years including a cheap flashider assemble for the wider barrel.
Gibbs/Navy Arms faked a buttload of damaged, deteriorated, otherwise unsellable, India 2A, 7.62 NATO rifles. Cleverly hawked as Australian No7's even though there was never such an animal. Both legit varieties of No7's were .22 trainers.
If the rifle you're watching is a Sante Fe/ Golden State, and is complete and undamaged, $255 might be a fair price. They didn't hide anything and took the time to mark the product. The SF/GS rifles have a cult-collector following for that reason. Another documented step in the life of an Enfield.
If the rifle is in great shape, and used hunting/plinking rifles are selling in that price range, then the shop might get what they're asking.
These put together No.4/No.5 do have some popularity for shooting purposes.
The No.1/No.5 put together rifles, if neatly done, are popular also.
The British did rebuild some No.5 rifles using No.4 receivers when needed. Some No.5 rifle receivers, during extensive rapid shooting as in combat, would spread apart at the rear sight hinge pin and would require replacement.
http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerdog/generalstorage/peterlaidlerpostsleeenfieldforums/No5%20Wandering%20Zero%20The%20Facts.pdf
"...why anybody would go to..." Supply and demand. Former is very low. Latter is very high(for some reason).
Gibbs/Navy Arms faked a butt load of No. 4 receivers into fake No. 5's too. They did at least say they were cobbled together from the wrong receiver. The real sad stuff is their fake, fake of an '03A3 with a No. 4 Rifle flash hider
The gun is in a pawn shop in AR... I don't know who did it, but they did it well and if it is still there in Jan, it will come home with me. The bore is shiny bright and the stock is in great shape... I'm guessing that, if origina,l a gun in that condition would fetch $1,000.
The gun is in a pawn shop in AR... I don't know who did it, but they did it well and if it is still there in Jan, it will come home with me. The bore is shiny bright and the stock is in great shape... I'm guessing that, if origina,l a gun in that condition would fetch $1,000.
If its that nice its worth the parts for what they want. If it has an original flash hider they are unobtanium now. The last flash hider I knew of personally and was the real deal brought $200.00. Apparently they are a pain to make and expensive to make hense why no one has made any reproductions. I only have one No 5 Mark 1 M47C and it has the been there done that look on the exterior. The bore is pretty good and it does not group too bad. Since I filled that niche I probably won't buy another. Let see some pics if you bring her home.
JB White
12-23-2016, 03:44
Apparently they are a pain to make and expensive to make hense why no one has made any reproductions.
There are indeed reproductions, but they are cast. That's why you sometimes find "jungle carbines" with broken sight protectors.
John Sukey
12-24-2016, 12:33
Still have to laugh when the dealers call them "jungle carbines" A bunch wound up in Norway! don't recall any "jungles" there!
There are indeed reproductions, but they are cast. That's why you sometimes find "jungle carbines" with broken sight protectors.
Thanks JB for clarifying for me. I was not talking about the crappy cast repros you can see casting seems in. I was talking about a true milled repro. Its my understanding they would be to expensive to make, but I'm no machinist so I'm not sure what measurement of them is the issue.
Still have to laugh when the dealers call them "jungle carbines" A bunch wound up in Norway! don't recall any "jungles" there!
Didn't one of the big importers back in the day given them that catchy name as a marketing gimmick
JB White
12-24-2016, 09:45
From what I recall it was Golden State Arms in their ads. Some folks now claim they picked it up elsewhere. Doesn't really matter as it was never any type of official designation.
Only recently has the controversy arisen about whether the term was really coined in the American ad hype, or began as British slang but made popular in the USA.
JB White
12-24-2016, 09:52
Thanks JB for clarifying for me. I was not talking about the crappy cast repros you can see casting seems in. I was talking about a true milled repro. Its my understanding they would be to expensive to make, but I'm no machinist so I'm not sure what measurement of them is the issue.
Have you seen the CNC'd Rigby style nosecaps for the MLE and LEC's someone had made up over on the Gunboards site?
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?662769-CNC-made-long-Lee-nose-caps
Have you seen the CNC'd Rigby style nosecaps for the MLE and LEC's someone had made up over on the Gunboards site?
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?662769-CNC-made-long-Lee-nose-caps
I seen it on milsurps. They look very good. Now we need someone to make in spec wood stocks. At the rate drill rifles are being robbed of parts collectors in the future will be looking for original drill rifles.
JB White
12-26-2016, 04:20
Now we need someone to make in spec wood stocks. At the rate drill rifles are being robbed of parts collectors in the future will be looking for original drill rifles.
It's not cost effective. Won't be for quite a while yet. Even if doing stocks in American Walnut the cost is too high for what the market will bear. That's why limited runs of scarce pieces are done and second runs are rarely done once the limited demand is mostly satisfied.
Once the time comes, expect Asian or Sub-Continent manufacture in the rough using woods we can barely pronounce once identified. Some of the Teak No4 bits out of Viet Nam looked very good but they were heavy compared to walnut, beech, and birch etc.. Once those leftovers sold I haven't seen any since.
The overseas replacement wood for the Brown Bess and P53/Snider Enfields aren't perfect at all but they make a decent handle to hold on to. Expect the same for the Lee Enfields once the time is right...and if the world still exists. :)
It's not cost effective. Won't be for quite a while yet. Even if doing stocks in American Walnut the cost is too high for what the market will bear. That's why limited runs of scarce pieces are done and second runs are rarely done once the limited demand is mostly satisfied.
Once the time comes, expect Asian or Sub-Continent manufacture in the rough using woods we can barely pronounce once identified. Some of the Teak No4 bits out of Viet Nam looked very good but they were heavy compared to walnut, beech, and birch etc.. Once those leftovers sold I haven't seen any since.
The overseas replacement wood for the Brown Bess and P53/Snider Enfields aren't perfect at all but they make a decent handle to hold on to. Expect the same for the Lee Enfields once the time is right...and if the world still exists. :)
Agree with your opinion. Time will tell and the price will probably be high.
John Sukey
12-29-2016, 06:58
How about the bayonet trainers? Have a couple with spring loaded rods in the barrel with a ball on the end of the rod.
How about the bayonet trainers? Have a couple with spring loaded rods in the barrel with a ball on the end of the rod.
I have one John made out of an old Mark 1. People use to scoff at them. I could part this one out and triple my money but.....I only bought one so I'm keeping it as is.
Fakes were commercially made to make surplus arms more desirable. Others were faked by their owners simply for the cool factor. Numrich sold cobbled up 'conversion kits' for years including a cheap flashider assemble for the wider barrel.
Gibbs/Navy Arms faked a buttload of damaged, deteriorated, otherwise unsellable, India 2A, 7.62 NATO rifles. Cleverly hawked as Australian No7's even though there was never such an animal. Both legit varieties of No7's were .22 trainers.
If the rifle you're watching is a Sante Fe/ Golden State, and is complete and undamaged, $255 might be a fair price. They didn't hide anything and took the time to mark the product. The SF/GS rifles have a cult-collector following for that reason. Another documented step in the life of an Enfield.
If the rifle is in great shape, and used hunting/plinking rifles are selling in that price range, then the shop might get what they're asking.
Mine is definately a fake but, bought it knowing this. Go Cubies!
Steve
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