View Full Version : M1 and M1a Powder for rolling my own???
Okay, Completely new to building my own ammo... i shoot only milsurp ammo as of now and santy's bringing me a roll-ur-own machine...
Was wondering, what is the closest powder to military spec ammo for m2, m80, and m855 ball ammo???
All opinions appreciated...
bombdog, over...
For me, it is "the big three" . . .
IMR or Hogdon #4895
IMR #4064
Varget
Never used Varget in a gas gun but of the other 2 I like IMR 4064 then best 4895 is good to but 4064 has always given better accuracy in my guns. I need to try Varget one of these days, it's good stuff.
IMR4895(the 'H' is close but not the same thing and does not use the same data.)was the powder used in .30 M1 and M2 ammo. However, like BudT says, IMR4064 gives much more consistent accuracy. Especially with match grade bullets.
There really is no standard powder for NATO spec ammo(M80 is just the U.S. designation. M855 is 5.56/.223. Also a U.S. designation.). Any load that gives approximately 2,733 fps with a 150 grain(7.62NATO uses a 147 grain bullet. A 150 is close enough.) bullet will do though. So will the IMR/H 4895, IMR4064 or Varget.
Mind you, you really should read your manual and work up the most accurate load for each rifle and forget milsurp velocities and specs. Milsurp ammo is not loaded for great accuracy. It's loaded to give specific velocity ranges at specific pressures. Reloading means you're moving up in the world of shooting. You load for accuracy, not velocity.
psteinmayer
12-23-2016, 02:28
I used to use IMR-4064, but I switched to IMR-4895 for my M1 match loads. I've since switched to H-4895 due to powder availability (last year) and I'm actually much happier with the results than the IMR powder. Little better accuracy for me with my Nosler match bullets.
Litt'le Lee
12-23-2016, 03:23
RL-15 is a great group getter--the govert. used it for match loads--especially with Nosler 155 palma
IMR 4064 and IMR 4895 are the two most used powders by re-loaders for .30-06 M1 rifles. I use IMR 4064 because it is so versatile; also giving excellent results in .250 Savage and .303 British. The fly in the ointment is the very long sticks IMR 4064 comes in. One buddy of mine likens it to loading Lincoln Logs. I use a Rock Chucker and trickle up each load, if you don't want to fiddle with that use IMR 4895 or something else like the above mentioned Varget.
Reloading manuals are starting to include M1 specific loads in their .30-06 section. I know the Hornady Handbook I have has an extensive section on M1 .30-06 recipes.
Tango mike gents... This is what i was interested in finding out... For the most part, it's how i've been told... i was curious as to whether or not there was a powder available that closely resembled what we shot in our battle-rifles... 'we' being, my grandfather's Garand in WWII, my dad and uncles' M14's, and my M16's...
i do realize the reason for working up a match load, we'll do... my M1 really likes the PPU garand food, maybe i can find the specs on that stuff as well...
Again, thanks guys...
bombdog, out...
barretcreek
12-23-2016, 05:38
Friend who built my M1A and Garand and is working on my second Garand was an armorer.
He agreed when I asked him about the following.
As Art mentioned the current Hornady and Sierra handbooks have service rifle specific loads in dedicated sections. Don't even think about using other data to start.
Even more important, get on Fulton Armory's website and read and re-read why he is dead set against shooting reloads in M1/M1A/AR-15 rifles. And keep re-reading as you start loading. My XL-650s are going to have very different roles than I originally intended for loading service ammo.
Go to Garandgear.com and look at his section on the Garand gas plug they make and the time pressure curves.
m1ashooter
12-23-2016, 06:07
I've used AA2520 for years.
Friend who built my M1A and Garand and is working on my second Garand was an armorer.
He agreed when I asked him about the following.
As Art mentioned the current Hornady and Sierra handbooks have service rifle specific loads in dedicated sections. Don't even think about using other data to start.
Even more important, get on Fulton Armory's website and read and re-read why he is dead set against shooting reloads in M1/M1A/AR-15 rifles. And keep re-reading as you start loading. My XL-650s are going to have very different roles than I originally intended for loading service ammo.
Go to Garandgear.com and look at his section on the Garand gas plug they make and the time pressure curves.
You are correct IMHO on every count. The CMP M1 manual "Read This First" has a subsection in the ammunition chapter titled "A GRIM SERMON ON RELOADING." Anyone who reloads for a semi automatic service rifle is accepting an additional risk. I do hand load for my .30-06 service rifles (3 M1903s and one M1.) In my M1 the hand loads are primarily for matches, but I use the Hornady service rifle section data, use a single stage press and only use virgin brass if I'm going to shoot it semi automatically as opposed to single loading. Federal and Privi Partizan ammunition formulated for the M1 are excellent and I shoot them with some regularity. The vast majority of my shooting with an M1 is still GI ball (though not necessarily U.S.G.I. ball.)
Trackin!!!
That's where i'm going with my M1 Art... Mostly in JCG matches... And my press is a Lee single stage...
bombdog...
jjrothWA
12-23-2016, 07:23
Also, try BL-C2 or Win 748, VARGET might be another but have no expereince with it.
Make sure primer pockets are clean and no crimp remaining and seated FLUSH below casehead.
Case length MUST be CONSISTANT, +/- 0.002",
visually adjust the sizing die to be concentric inside the sizer die
good luck and take your time.
Okay then, got some IMR 4895, what about those CCI#31 primers, or are the Winchester large rifles good???
psteinmayer
12-25-2016, 07:03
The CCI #34 (not 31) are MIL spec primers, and are excellent with 4895 in 30-06/M2 Ball rounds for the M1 Garand. I've been using them for a few years now. Prior to using the 34s, I used CCI 200s which are standard primers and also good. When reloading for a Garand or M1A, you want to be careful as there are some primers that are quite sensitive and may lend themselves to slamfire.
Roger that 'P', that's why the thousand questions... i'm going to be reloading for those two specific rifles, M1, and M1a, and the mousegun that tags along once in a while... i was aware that certain primers would cause problems on occasion, just not which ones... i've read it on the web somewhere but can't remember where... Got a pard that helps me out with all he can too...
bombdog...
The CCI #34 (not 31) are MIL spec primers, and are excellent with 4895 in 30-06/M2 Ball rounds for the M1 Garand. I've been using them for a few years now. Prior to using the 34s, I used CCI 200s which are standard primers and also good. When reloading for a Garand or M1A, you want to be careful as there are some primers that are quite sensitive and may lend themselves to slamfire.
To add to this I use Federal 210's in my bench rest rifles. CCI 34s in my mil surp. Federal 210s are a great match primer but are sensitive. I've had one detonate during priming. Primers are still hard to find here. I hope that will change but if Federal 210s or any match primer are all thats on the shelf wait another day.
I buy Varget in 8 lb jugs and it's my preferred powder in 308 benchrest guns. I also use it for milsurps 30-06,303, and 6.5 X 55. However the other powers mention work across the board to. Good luck I've found reloading as much fun as shooting, but it is time consuming doing it right.
psteinmayer
12-26-2016, 04:38
I've found reloading as much fun as shooting, but it is time consuming doing it right.
Amen! I love reloading. Time consuming to be sure... but very rewarding when the fruits of your labor produce excellent accuracy, and wins at the matches!
Darreld Walton
12-29-2016, 07:36
I started using 'surplus' 4895 back in the sixties when I was a kid. Mostly because it was something like .29 cents a POUND for the stuff. They'd weigh it up, and double bag it in paper bags over the counter at Skagg's Drug. Worked great in our 30-06 bolt guns, and .308 lever guns.
I didn't need to load for the M14's our team used, had all the NM ammo we needed, all we had to do was bring brass back, and the armorer didn't care what brass, just wanted a 'close' round count.
I started using Varget years back after it became available, and found that I don't get the vertical stringing in my rapid fire strings like I do with 4895 and 4064. It also give me very consistent velocities on very hot, or very cold days. Getting Varget was nearly impossible post-2008, and remained hard to find for several years following. Bought four or five eight pound 'kegs' of the stuff that looks like will last me through perhaps the end of next year.
I full length size 30-06, 308, and 5.56/.223 in small base dies. Essential for my semi-autos, lever and pump rifles, and the bolt guns don't seem to mind one little bit. My GI brass lasts through as many loadings as any 'commercial' brass, I just have to pay attention to reducing the charge a bit to accomodate the smaller internal volume.
I started using 'surplus' 4895 back in the sixties when I was a kid. Mostly because it was something like .29 cents a POUND for the stuff. They'd weigh it up, and double bag it in paper bags over the counter at Skagg's Drug. Worked great in our 30-06 bolt guns, and .308 lever guns.
I didn't need to load for the M14's our team used, had all the NM ammo we needed, all we had to do was bring brass back, and the armorer didn't care what brass, just wanted a 'close' round count.
I started using Varget years back after it became available, and found that I don't get the vertical stringing in my rapid fire strings like I do with 4895 and 4064. It also give me very consistent velocities on very hot, or very cold days. Getting Varget was nearly impossible post-2008, and remained hard to find for several years following. Bought four or five eight pound 'kegs' of the stuff that looks like will last me through perhaps the end of next year.
I full length size 30-06, 308, and 5.56/.223 in small base dies. Essential for my semi-autos, lever and pump rifles, and the bolt guns don't seem to mind one little bit. My GI brass lasts through as many loadings as any 'commercial' brass, I just have to pay attention to reducing the charge a bit to accomodate the smaller internal volume.
Humm, vertical stringing during rapids, hummm... Duly noted... Varget...
Worth a try...
bombdog...
psteinmayer
12-31-2016, 04:44
Vertical stringing has not been a problem for me with the H-4895... but it could be that I've shoot bad enough to not notice, LOL
Okay grunts and generals, i got bit hard by the roll ur own bug... Took about 5 days to get all the 'partickulars' to get started but i did it... i think i may have found my problem in life, i am 'waaay' OCD... Ain't built but 20 rounds but they're weighed out, each one, 10 Hornady BTOT match 168's with a suggested charge of 45.9gr of IMR 4064, he says it's light and manageable but very accurate, and then just for giggles 10 Hornady AMax 175's with 46.5gr of same... i'll make some more and get them through the tube for a range report...
Thanks for all you guy's help in getting me started... Hope i make ya'll proud...
Oh yeah i got 1000 CCI #34 igniters...
bombdog, out...
psteinmayer
01-03-2017, 04:36
Sounds like you're well on your way to a medal! Happy shooting...
Okay grunts and generals, i got bit hard by the roll ur own bug... Took about 5 days to get all the 'partickulars' to get started but i did it... i think i may have found my problem in life, i am 'waaay' OCD... Ain't built but 20 rounds but they're weighed out, each one, 10 Hornady BTOT match 168's with a suggested charge of 45.9gr of IMR 4064, he says it's light and manageable but very accurate, and then just for giggles 10 Hornady AMax 175's with 46.5gr of same... i'll make some more and get them through the tube for a range report...
Thanks for all you guy's help in getting me started... Hope i make ya'll proud...
Oh yeah i got 1000 CCI #34 igniters...
bombdog, out...
I strongly suggest you "foul" the bore with some ordinary ammo before you launch those handloads!
After all that "sweat-equity" you put in your handloads, it would be a shame to NOT GET full potential out of the first few rounds down range! --Jim
psteinmayer
01-03-2017, 07:15
Fortunately, in CMP Match shooting, you get five sighters before recorded shots, which give you an opportunity to pre-foul.
Can do Jim, thanks... And yes, stein i remember the sighters as well...
By the way would there be a ?minimum? overall cartridge length, the 150 cantilures i have seem to hang way out of the end at 3.30 and the PPU factory stuff is a flat base 150 max length of 3.321...
Lots of homework...
Tango mike...
bombdog, out...
. . . . By the way would there be a ?minimum? overall cartridge length, the 150 cantilures i have seem to hang way out . . . .
I totally IGNORE the cannalure on the bullet.
When you think about it, there is NO minimum OAL needed when the ammo is used in a M1, because even when the M1909 blank is used (no bullet at all) in the semi-auto mode, the rifle functions just fine! (with the blank-fire device installed at the muzzle, of course!)
In fact, just for grins, I loaded a clip full of full-length-sized EMPTIES in my M1 and ran them through the action slowly, by hand, while carefully observing the feeding of them into the chamber.
The two forward-most ribs on either side of the magazine well guided the cases flawlessly into the chamber by engaging the shoulder of each case and "tipping" them toward the chamber mouth.
With bulleted cases (live ammo), I noticed that AT NO TIME did the bullet contact any portion of the receiver on its travel to the chamber! . . . . the bullet only contacting the CHAMBER WALL when the cartridge is ALMOST FULLY HOME!!
Try it yourself sometime to see just what I mean. --Jim
psteinmayer
01-04-2017, 04:19
I use the Nosler 168 gr HPBT Match (Custom Competition) bullets, and they have no cannelure for crimp. Not important in an M1, or even an 03 for that matter. The cannelure is normally used for a factory crimp, and to assist with fouling issues. If I was going to shoot in a very wet environment (such as a match during monsoon in Vietnam), then I'd crimp and apply sealing compound. At Camp Perry however... not so much, LOL.
FWIW, in my Krags shooting a spitzer (pointed) bullet, I absolutely must crimp or the bullet will telescope during feeding. In that case, the cannelure is extremely important (not so much with RN bullets, which is what I actually shoot).
Man, i'm feelin some 1000yd, actually 1100yd, targets going up... Did it with some m118's in my m1a once, so my finger is itching again... Those Amax M72 wanna-be's should suffice... i'll get her sighted in this weekend and let ya know how things go...
out, here
Ken in Iowa
01-08-2017, 05:41
On the primer recommendation, we had good success with Remington 9 1/2 in M1 and M14 with IMR 4895.
In bolt guns, Federal 210M was our standard for many calibers from 22/250 to 308. As was already mentioned, they may be too sensitive for semi-auto.
You are well on your way bombdog. Looking forward to your reports.
PhillipM
01-08-2017, 06:00
VV N140 is the best powder, if you can find it. It is gun cotton based, making it cleaner than anything else.
Buy a primer pocket uniformer and use whatever primer you want.
Nosler 155 CC are the best bullets Ive found for 200 yard JCG matches. 168 are crummy past 300.
Your mileage may vary.
PhillipM
01-08-2017, 06:05
Fortunately, in CMP Match shooting, you get five sighters before recorded shots, which give you an opportunity to pre-foul.
I keep my barrel fouled and zeroed at the same range as the match so I just get my crap together and dryfire during the sighters.
That way, i save walking 800 yards on our 200 yard walk up and paste match and it seems to freak other shooters out.
psteinmayer
01-09-2017, 05:45
I keep my barrel fouled and zeroed at the same range as the match so I just get my crap together and dryfire during the sighters.
That way, i save walking 800 yards on our 200 yard walk up and paste match and it seems to freak other shooters out.
I sort of do the same thing... in that I let my son shoot the rifle first, and then it's already nice and fouled for me. Also, I shoot all of my matches at 200 (at the same club) so I don't have to re-zero. Since Camp Perry is 200, then I'm only compensating a very tiny amount. I prefer to NOT shoot at 100 using the 200 SR targets because that requires recalibration... something I hate to do! I do use the five sighters though... to make sure I'm still on target and my rounds are going where I intend them to go, LOL.
Okay, just to update the post, still trying to develop this round... i've fired some (8 round enblocs) for accuracy and functionability... The 150 fmj Hornady's with 48.2g of IMR4064 was pretty good... Tryed the same bullet with some other charges, but i'm just not satisfied with my results... My rifle is way more accurate... Will continue...
bombdog...
milboltnut
03-06-2017, 05:23
If you want to do a trigger job it's not to bad. Other authors say to stay away from the hammer hooks lengths... to eliminate travel.
http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerdog/generalstorage/tempworkingdirectory/M1%20Trigger.pdf
If you want to do a trigger job it's not to bad. Other authors say to stay away from the hammer hooks lengths... to eliminate travel.
http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerdog/generalstorage/tempworkingdirectory/M1%20Trigger.pdf
my M1 has one, 5.1lb pull according to the gauge we used... my M1a's is 4.8ish... Both are great glass rods...
bombdog, out...
milboltnut
03-06-2017, 07:09
mines 4 lbs. after working it.
1-12 INF (M)
04-05-2017, 01:12
I think bullet selection is more important than powder. 4895, 4964 and Varget all work. I've had good luck with Sierra and Speer 125s, and 155 and 168 SMKs. Widener's 168g 'surplus' bullets had weight variances of as much as 6.5g's. For a cheaper bullet, the Hornady 150 FMJs work well.
1-12 INF (M)
04-14-2017, 07:10
I've also had good success with 125g flat-base bullets from Speer and Sierra.
So, after months of trying, and a lot of just having fun just cooking for my best girl and having her eat what i fixed, i have a 3.52"group @ 200yds, prone W/sling... PPU case with a CCI 34, 155grSMK over 48gr IMR4064...
i want to personally thank all you guys for the help... After all, alice would most likely be still sick from my cooking...
One last question though... i'm getting ready for my M14 next, is there a case gauge made for the 7.62X51 NATO cartridge???
i await input...
tango mike...
bombdog, out...
1-12 INF (M)
04-22-2017, 07:03
That's bound to be a good combo. Overall, I've had better luck with the 155's and 4064 than most other combinations. (altho' 80g seems like quite a bit!) Also, I have a Hornady gauge for .308 that checks ammo that works fine in my M14 and .308 M1. You sure don't want a shoulder not set back quite far enough in a gas gun.
Uh, yeah maybe i shoulda checked my notes, lol... 48 grains... i guess that's why we should check the reloading manuals huh???
Now i feel like a total ID10T...
bombdog, uh yeah...
1-12 INF (M)
04-23-2017, 01:04
For a less expensive option, I've also had good results from the Hornady 150g FMJs.
For a less expensive option, I've also had good results from the Hornady 150g FMJs.
The Hornady 150 FMJ's gave me a 5.7" gp the same day with the same charge...
Which is incase no one has seen my edited reply (48gr 4064), not 80... Maybe in my 1917, ouch...
bombdog...
1-12 INF (M)
04-23-2017, 01:28
Yup - 'your mileage may vary.." - it was very hard to find one load that was as accurate as possible in an M1903, 1903A3, and a two M1s. That's part of the fun...
Ned Butts
04-23-2017, 05:52
Any one use H380 in their M1 loads?
1-12 INF (M)
04-23-2017, 07:21
No, but I've had some good results with Varget.
i have really enjoyed my new hobby... Now i think i'll work on some black-tip and m72 cloning... Soon as i find a thousand yds... i can do some consistent 600's now and that should do for developing them... i'll get started on cookin for maggie soon...
One lady at a time...
bombdog, out...
Matt Anthony
04-24-2017, 06:23
Removed by Matt Anthony
Sorry Matt, it's a free country, at least for now... You'll be just fine...
bombdog, out here...
Matt Anthony
04-27-2017, 02:48
Removed by Matt Anthony
Humm, how to respond... Thank you for your input Matt... i respect your point of view... It belongs to you... As for me asking questions that can be answered in the afore mentioned reloading manuals, i have started getting them... At the time i started this thread, i had none, so, i learned to ask questions... i am not on this forum to make light of or ridicule others for their choices, but to learn more about the firearms i love and try to be lighthearted about it... i think we as Americans have enough 'drama' in our lives these days... i enjoy this forum very much and will continue with my military slang, for that is who i am, a follower of Christ, a soldier, a patriot, and an American...
Thank you for your support...
kirk...
AZshooter
04-27-2017, 06:10
I find it odd and disturbing that someone uses statements as "rolling my own!" Also, an adult using the nomenclature that Santa is bringing gifts to him is fricking immature and in my opinion, so unnecessary it is pathetic! To be honest, posts such as this want to make me throw up and stop reading this forum! For GODS SAKE GROW UP!
Matt
So ... I'll bet that folks using the term "boolets' just drive your petty a$$ up the wall. Hope the Easter Bunny ¢raps in your shoes. If you want to edit thoughts, words & terminology go work for one of the many leftist publications who can't stomach anyone with ideas and opinions that differ from their own.
You're free to ignore anything posted in a free (no cost) forum.
Matt Anthony
04-28-2017, 11:14
Removed by Matt Anthony
Well i had fun, how bout ya'll...
Let's go burn some powder... And i'm sure i'll be back with 'more questions'...
To all you guys who helped me out, 'tango mike'...
bombdog, out here...
psteinmayer
04-30-2017, 09:35
No problem Bombdog... always happy to help (and I'm not quite wound as tightly as others).
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