PDA

View Full Version : Help identify M1897 trench gun



Old Artilleryman
01-06-2017, 05:49
I am trying to determine the history of this shotgun and will sincerely appreciate your input. Specifically, is this a WW1 Trench Gun, based on its photos and my description? I have not disassembled this shotgun. So far, from the Internet and Blue Book I have learned:

The serial number from the Winchester website places its manufacture in 1918. Other sources seem to agree. The apparently hand stamped “US” and “Ordnance Bomb” are on the right side, forward of the ejection port and seem proper, compared to photos of other verified examples.

The 20 1/4 inch barrel (measured from the bolt face, action closed) has the six-hole handguard. The barrel is marked as shown in the photos. It has two Winchester proof marks; one each on the receiver and barrel tops. “CYL” is stamped on the left side at the barrel’s rear. The bayonet shroud is marked on its left side with “PAT. Jan. 15 & MAR. 18. 1918.” And is not marked on the right side. The two lines of various Patent dates on the barrel’s left side are more than 50% obscured by the handguard; ending with “12 GA.” There are two index marks where the barrel meets the receiver and on the opposite side, the numeral “8.” The metal finish varies from blued on the forward magazine tube to an almost Parkerized look on the rear of the magazine tube. The barrel interior is shiny and with no pitting or marks. The interior action parts also appear Parkerized and show moderate wear. The receiver finish varies from blued to the almost Parkerized finish mentioned above and often appears more like old handling stains.

The stock has one crack on the top right and another on the left side (photos) where it attaches to the receiver. Close examination reveals no evidence of any cartouches on the wood. The butt plate appears to be the hard rubber, original WW1 vintage as seen on other verified examples.

Please let me know what you think of this shotgun and its authenticity. Thank you for your interest in helping me out.
3931139312393133931439315

Old Artilleryman
01-06-2017, 05:50
Help identify M1897 trench gun--Photos # 2
3931639317393183931939320

Old Artilleryman
01-06-2017, 05:51
Help identify M1897 trench gun--Photos #3
3932139322393233932439325

Old Artilleryman
01-06-2017, 05:52
Help identify M1897 trench gun--Photos #43932639327393283932939330

Old Artilleryman
01-06-2017, 05:54
Help identify M1897 trench gun--Photos #53933139332393333933439335

Shooter88
01-07-2017, 10:22
Looks real to me. The hand stamped US and bomb looks authentic. The stock is a WW1 stock which is correct for this gun. The WW2 versions looked a little different. Is there a shim or sleeve around the barrel where the heat guard is mounted?

scosgt
01-07-2017, 10:45
It is a WWI Trench. Nothing to identify.
Possibly refinished some time in the past.

Old Artilleryman
01-07-2017, 12:20
Looks real to me. The hand stamped US and bomb looks authentic. The stock is a WW1 stock which is correct for this gun. The WW2 versions looked a little different. Is there a shim or sleeve around the barrel where the heat guard is mounted?

I'm not seeing anything like a shim, if I'm understanding you correctly. I moved a slip of paper from front to rear, as one would to see if a rifle barrel "free-floats," and the paper goes from the rear of the shroud (yellow arrows) all the way forward to where the shield is welded to the bayonet shroud, without obstruction. Is this what you mean?
Thank you.39336393373933839339

Old Artilleryman
01-07-2017, 12:23
It is a WWI Trench. Nothing to identify.
Possibly refinished some time in the past.
I've read that the WW1 pieces were blued, some say nicely so. This has remnants of bluing, the "Parkerized" look I mentioned, and everything else in-between.
Were the action parts originally blued, in the white, or mixed? Thank you.

Shooter88
01-07-2017, 12:44
I'm not seeing anything like a shim, if I'm understanding you correctly. I moved a slip of paper from front to rear, as one would to see if a rifle barrel "free-floats," and the paper goes from the rear of the shroud (yellow arrows) all the way forward to where the shield is welded to the bayonet shroud, without obstruction. Is this what you mean?
Thank you.39336393373933839339

Sorry, should have specified. I meant where the shroud actually attaches to the barrel. A lot of times someone will take a riot gun barrel (same markings and length as trench) and install it on a receiver. The issue though is that the riot barrels are not as big around towards the muzzle as trench gun barrels, therefore the heat shield would not fit snug and would require the use of some sort of shim or sleeve to take up the extra space. That's usually a pretty sure fire way to tell if the barrel is indeed a trench gun barrel (some say the three grooves on the underside of the barrel are a dead giveaway, but anyone with a steady hand and patience can cut them).

I don't think you will have this problem...your gun seems pretty authentic.

Old Artilleryman
01-07-2017, 01:05
(To Shooter88) OK. I understand. To my eye, there is only the single thickness of the shield itself affixed/welded to the shroud. Here are a couple of closer shots:
3934039341

Old Artilleryman
01-07-2017, 01:30
(To Shooter88)
OK. I understand now. Thanks again. To my eye, there is nothing between the shield metal and the shroud.
Appreciate the "instruction." Here are a couple of closeups.
3934239343

Old Artilleryman
01-07-2017, 01:32
Sorry for the near duplicate posting. I think I got caught by the page change from 1 to 2, thought I'd screwed up something and sent it again. Oh well, time to quit and watch the Wild Card game, I guess.

scosgt
01-07-2017, 02:51
It is a solid frame gun in the proper range. Barrels are not that easy to replace as on a takedown.
The finish is either extremely worn or redone.
But it is a real trench. Stop obsessing.

Old Artilleryman
01-07-2017, 02:58
I'm just a detail guy. Learned that by shooting real big guns "danger close."
I do appreciate your help.
Happy New Year!