My, my... NRA match service rifles have CHANGED....

[Griff Murphey]

My entire NRA high power career was spent in '06 and 7.62 service rifles, M-1s, the M-14, and M-1As. Shot my old ARs in the Navy and 3 gun as well as hunting. Today I was on the range zeroing some hunting rifles and a friend who is a current high master showed up with a flat top AR, bull barrel, Nightforce scope (max 4.5 power). This gun weighs at least 16 lbs. unloaded! It's harder to hold in offhand than an old Winchester 52D! I was just astonished, the level of fitness just to use this firearm is stunning. I felt like a little kid trying to aim in his daddy's deer rifle.

I asked him if the service rifle events are set up with separate awards for irons and glass and he said no, all are just considered Service rifles. CMP, he said, is different; it's still all irons but he expects that will change as well. I guess my old HBAR with Leupold 4x on a Leatherwood carry handle mount is now an NRA legal service rifle! Who'd a thunk? Actually... Anyone who has been watching the nightly news for the last 15 years and every troop you see has Acogs or other kinds of glass on their 16's... I gots to shoot an NRA match looking like a real old guy with that Leupold heck I might put it on my triangle hand guard SP-1.

[SemperFi, 0321]

I see the USMC is now allowing qualification with scopes, they had better design a new marksmanship badge showing a scope crosshair, or somesuch, for it's a slap in the face to all of us who scored with iron sights. I shot M-1, M-14 (Expert) and M-16A1 (high Expert) also.
Seems even the Corps has to take part in 'everyone is a winner' liberal policies.
I see no problem training with scopes, but when it comes time to qualify for a shooting badge, you better earn it like everyone else did, the hard way. Who decides what level of magnification, 4x today and in 3 yrs they use a 12x, with bipod? And all the special snowflakes think they deserve it.

[Griff Murphey]

I get your feelings about this, I served in the Navy but spent my entire ACDU with the USMC and qualified Expert with rifle and pistol by USMC standards in 1975.

Going to the scope eliminates sight alignment errors, and it seems to me would increase combat effectiveness. Being a hunter, I can testify that identifying game in the woods is much more effective with optical sighting. My 3 gun shooting underlines in my mind the greater ability to detect targets with optical sights. Therefore my heart is with you but my brain, such as it is, tells me the optics are today's standard for effective target acquisition and engagement.

[bruce]

Once upon a time a little brass bead on the front of the barrel was a big improvement for sighting. Of course things got even better when a actual rear sight was added. Adjustable rear sights were ... non parell. Nowadays... optics are the way to go. Grew up w/ irons. Still enjoy them. But, hitting is the name of the game at the range or in the field. And when it comes to getting hits, optics are superior. JMHO. sincerely. bruce.

[p246]

Like any thing else it's coming down to gear and $. The excuse is the troops got them now. Yes my son uses a 1 X 4 or 1X 6 EL Can Specter on his SF rifle,but that's by no means used extensively across big army or Marines. As always this stuff be aimed a rich mans game or one must pick one disciple and throw everything at it. This is why I likeWW1 shoots. Iron sights only.

[Andouille]

I asked him if the service rifle events are set up with separate awards for irons and glass and he said no, all are just considered Service rifles. CMP, he said, is different; it's still all irons but he expects that will change as well.

He's about a year behind the times. CMP authorized use of up to max 4.5 power scopes for M16/AR-15 service rifle on Jan 1, 2016 (but not M14/M1A) and the NRA rubber stamped it almost immediately. However if you think that's bad, evidently you haven't heard all the rest. Our CMP and NRA parents are getting divorced and are offering their high power children what amounts to shiny new bicycles and other trinkets to pick one over the other. CMP is staying at Camp Perry, but starting this year, NRA high power has decamped to Camp Atterbury in Indiana and establishing their own Distinguished rifleman program. Meanwhile, CMP is ginning up an across-the-course match rifle program to begin in 2018, as well as mid-range and long-range programs that will include classifications that will evidently be similar to the NRA's classifications.

I am informed that there have been some other rules changes that will allow scopes on NRA match rifles that came out after the divorce and that they will differ from CMP's 2018 rules for match rifles, but I'm a little too disinclined to pay much attention to that squabbling right now. It may not have helped the outlook of the match rifle shooters that the high civilian SR shooter on the NRA side in 2016 shot a scoped rifle and also won the Erdman trophy (high standing aggregate score) that normally goes to a match rifle shooter, but frankly I don't pay enough attention to the politics to know if that had anything to do with it or not. There's been a "any rifle match/tactical" group that allows scopes for several years now but they weren't allowed to compete for the big awards, is how I understand it but again, I don't pay attention to that enough to know what they're up to. I'm primarily an SR guy, myself.

How this disturbance in The Force furthers the sport remains to be seen, but in my opinion, it don't. I'm pissed at both of my parents and wish there was some way to get adopted out to somebody else.

There are several threads running on the national matches sub-forum of the US Rifle Teams website, people going back and forth on the subject, if you've got the stomach for it. You have to be registered there to look at anything but that's a relatively painless process. There's also a thread on the optic service rifle rules adopted a year ago, if you want.

Here's a link to the US Rifle Teams forum with the current divorce proceedings:

http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/index.php?showforum=77

[Art]

I see the USMC is now allowing qualification with scopes, they had better design a new marksmanship badge showing a scope crosshair, or somesuch, for it's a slap in the face to all of us who scored with iron sights. I shot M-1, M-14 (Expert) and M-16A1 (high Expert) also.
Seems even the Corps has to take part in 'everyone is a winner' liberal policies.
I see no problem training with scopes, but when it comes time to qualify for a shooting badge, you better earn it like everyone else did, the hard way. Who decides what level of magnification, 4x today and in 3 yrs they use a 12x, with bipod? And all the special snowflakes think they deserve it.

I don't know about the "Corps" but I do know that per our son while in Air Force Security had to qualify regularly with the M4 and just had to do it again two months ago before his third deployment says that in the Air Force's Army you have to qualify with iron sights and glass. The glass is an Aim Point red dot. Air Force D.M.s use ACOG scopes. Qualification was never with a sight that had magnification. Iron sights today in the U.S. military and most of the western European ones is purely a backup. Glass, IR lasers, night vision and all that is a major force multiplier and a big reason that our guys, and the Brits, and the Frogs and our other high end allies kick butt and take names every time we go up against the bad guys. If I had to fight with a rifle I'd take an Aim Point or an EO Tech (what the actual ground pounders actually use) which allow faster target acquisition and better hit probability, any day. I love shooting my iron sight mil surps but in the very unlikely event I should ever have to fight with a rifle it will be my AK clone with a Russian 1.5 mil red dot.

As far as I know people shooting the matches, except for stuff like the Garand Match have never shot stock rifles, not if they want to win. The matches are a game. Training for combat is not a game.

[Litt'le Lee]

MY-MY-I watch it also-one of the best detective shows around !!!!