Krag usage in WW2?

[Dick Hosmer]

I have been contacted by a very nice gentleman who SWEARS (even after the usual back and forth about "Uncle Charlie" stories) that his father was issued a .30-40 Krag M1898 rifle, which he 'used for target practice off the fantail of his ship' (the USS Maddox, a destroyer) during WW2. He is quite lucid, sent me pictures of the rifle, and is most adamant! Any thoughts on this - could this possibly be involved with the SRS notation of "1943 donation to the US Navy"? Thanks.

[jon_norstog]

The Maddox in question was probably the second can of that name,DD 622, which was launched in late 1942 and sunk by the Germans in July 1943. She didn't live long enough to accumulate a whole bunch of old gun stuff in her gun lockers. The previous Maddox was a WW I vintage four-piper that was passed around between the Royal Navy, the Soviet Navy and the Canadian Navy.

That said you never know what you might find in a ship's spaces

jn

[Dick Hosmer]

Nope - DD-731 (in service 1944-1972) later sold to Taiwan, finally scrapped in 1985. Served in WW2, Korea, Gulf of Tonkin.

[Kragrifle]

I spent 10 days on a destroyer sailing from Pearl Harbor to San Diego. During the trip we were treated to displays of firepower including small arms fire. Watching new (at that time) M16's get sprayed with salt water led me to wonder how any Navy small arms exist for us collectors now a days!

[cplnorton]

I think I have documents somewhere that detail Krags on ships. Man I can't remember where I have them now, or I would go back and find them and post them. But I think it was requests for parts to keep Krags serviceable on ships and they were WWII dates. So I really have no doubts that his story could be true.

[5MadFarmers]

I have been contacted by a very nice gentleman who SWEARS (even after the usual back and forth about "Uncle Charlie" stories) that his father was issued a .30-40 Krag M1898 rifle, which he 'used for target practice off the fantail of his ship' (the USS Maddox, a destroyer) during WW2. He is quite lucid, sent me pictures of the rifle, and is most adamant! Any thoughts on this - could this possibly be involved with the SRS notation of "1943 donation to the US Navy"? Thanks.

Presumably he also has a picture of .30-40 cartridges with WW2 dated headstamps? DM43? EC42? SL44?

The military tends to be quite big on having a supply of ammunition for their items. I suppose we could be lead to believe that the USN was buying non-FMJ cartridges from cartridge companies busy turning out strictly FMJ at that time but, myself, I'm unlikely to be convinced.

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2017/us_ammo-3.jpg

You'd think at least 1 measly can would surface.

[Rick the Librarian]

I remember reading (in Joe's Krag book) that even the supply of Krag ammunition in WWI was pretty limited.

I do admit I'd like to know what all those "1943 donation to U.S. Navy" was all about! :)

[psteinmayer]

I wouldn't put it past it for there to be the one off Krag on a ship during WWII. There were times in the early days of the war where the word desperation could have been casually passed around... and after Pearl Harbor, I would imaging they threw every useable gun available on ships until they could catch up to the demand!

[cplnorton]

I did a quick look, thinking I might remember where I put those Krag documents and I didn't see them. So I'm not sure where I filed them at.

I did find this though, for the Marines in Nov 1931. But I will keep a look out for the others. I'm pretty certain they were much later dates and I think they had names of ships on them, or at least I think there was.

Knowing me I probably threw them in some misc pile somewhere. But If I find them, I will come back and post them

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/16559334_10155048051114886_1655561728_n_zpsskmrmqn 1.jpg

[5MadFarmers]

I do admit I'd like to know what all those "1943 donation to U.S. Navy" was all about! :)

When I was a wee lad I used to play hockey. The city had one "arena" and a slew of out-door rinks. The "arena" was a big metal unheated building with a rink inside. No heat and not really any other amenities but at least it was out of the wind. Hockey skates are mighty cold at 35 below and the wind can be a bit bitter at that temp. From the arena I'd walk over to my grandfathers. He was still somewhat coherent but not completely. We had a talk about that arena once. He mentioned that, during WW2, he'd "supervised" people in growing "Victory Gardens" behind it. What they grew is a mystery as nothing edible grows that far north. He mentioned a "war bond" drive where they brought in a "captured Japanese Zero" and, for the sum of $.50, you were allowed to hit it with a sledgehammer. Probably what was left of an airplane in reality but he remembered it as a "Zero." Then there was the raffle. Of the guns donated to the war effort, two turned out to be muskets. That's the odd part. I remembered that quite well. They'd asked people to return "Springfield rifles" if they had them and people did exactly that. Two of the "Springfield rifles" donated were Springfield muskets. So they raffled them off.

I suspect they were after M-1903s.

So let's take those memories of a senile old gent, as related to a very young kid, and weave them.

At the start of WW1 the Ordnance Department did their math on an army of 1,000,000. That's it. They made two huge errors:
1) Assuming that 1,000,000 would be it.
2) Assuming that only those men need rifles.

The active army troops need rifles. Let's call that "tier 1."
The secondary troops need rifles. Let's call that "tier 2."
Other forces need rifles. State Guards, shipyard guards, ammo plant guards, etc., Let's call that "tier 3."

They couldn't even arm tier 1. "Broomstick soldiers." In 1939 that memory was still fresh; indeed many of the "broomstick troops" were alive right? Probably still bitter about the entire thing.

A historical memory of a rifle shortage. That remained.

After the Brits took a boat trip home from France a call went out. "England needs guns." The NRA donations and such. Wed that to the memory of the WW1 US rifle shortage.

When the war started everyone would logically assume they'd have another shortage. The "reserve" rifles, the M-1917s, were sent to England in huge numbers. I suspect, and I could probably find it, that they figured out that reasonably large numbers of M-1903s were out there. I'm also not entirely certain that they ignored the Krags at that time. They did buy Ross rifles in WW1 right? A Krag is perfectly suitable for guarding shipyards, and if you're Sergeant Schultz, captured American fliers.

The M1 carbine. That was the difference. Unlike WW1 they had a bit more time to "warm up" before serious combat. That gave them time to seriously hit their stride with M1 carbine production. Twice as many M1 carbines were manufactured during War Two than rifles, of all types, were made for War One.

Old dude I used to shoot with was in a military academy in 1944. 16ish years old. They received brand spanking new M-1903A3 rifles at the academy. 1944. Rifle production was so far along that they could even give kiddies new guns. Much different from War One.

So, as far as I can see, it's a "time" thing. 1939? Fear of rifle shortage. 1944? Swimming in the buggers.

So I don't doubt they would be interested in Krags circa 1941. When the shortage didn't pan out they'd be rather uninterested in rifles in that odd caliber. During War One they put out contracts for cartridges. The lack of contracts, and cartridges from them, during War Two paints a different story.

Exception? Small caliber sub-target use. That might have still existed. Last .30-40 cartridges were made for that use from what I remember.

[cplnorton]

If you guys wanted to know what the "1943 donation to the US Navy" documents were, Andrew on here could probably find a copy of them at the Archives. You get a handful of people together who are interested in it, and each throw in some money to pay him for his time, and I'm betting Andrew would go find them for you guys.

[5MadFarmers]

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2017/nra_may1942.png

Thumbing through the "American Rifleman" WW2 issues would likely produce information on the campaign.

[Dick Hosmer]

Thanks for all the input - I have a full run of the AR since the late 30's, but, like everything else it's disorganized. I think there may be a story here, but it isn't a high priority. I guess we can say at this point that it is highly unlikely, but not absolutely impossible.

[dave]

The Navy was on the bottom of the supply chain for rifles (except Marines) they purchased 900+ Rem. sporting rifles in .30-06, Moss. .22 's for training practice and even a dummy parade rifles39778 by Parris-Dunn for drill. The Army also purchased these dummy rifles, in at least two types. Those dummy rifle contracts lasted though 1944 at least. Top is Army heavy model (8+ #) and second is Navy MK 1. at about 6#.

[deadin]

One of the Aircraft carriers I was on in 1960-61 was still using a cut-down 45-70 trapdoor for line throwing. (It was probably the USS Yorktown, but could have been the USS Coral Sea)

[Dick Hosmer]

Oddly enough, the trapdoor line-throwing guns are well documented, and a large contract for .45-70 blank ammo was issued to Winchester in 1943. They, however were simply a tool, not a weapon requiring a large supply of ammunition. They served well in that capacity. I have heard stories that .45-70 rifles were issued to at least a few backwater Coast Guard stations during WW2. Still have a hard time seeing Krags actually deployed on ships, but, it may have happened.

[Stretch32]

Not to the stir the pot but 1903's of various types were supposedly used on board ship into the 60's or 70's. I feel like my dad told me the Marine sentries (no longer used today) would carry them on port call sentry duty on the ship or during drills. That would lead me to believe that Krags could've easily found their way into the armories of various ships during WW II in the fleet and used for second hand duties where a front line service rifle (Garand or 1903A3) either wasn't required or wasn't available.

You'd be amazed at all the old crap the Navy keeps around long after it's usefulness has passed. When Cecil Field was closed around 2000 and the Navy left people were finding parts and equipment for aircraft the navy hadn't operated in a squadron since the 1970's. The equipment was still in inventory even though there was no use for it.

Stretch

[Dick Hosmer]

Not to the stir the pot but 1903's of various types were supposedly used on board ship into the 60's or 70's. I feel like my dad told me the Marine sentries (no longer used today) would carry them on port call sentry duty on the ship or during drills. That would lead me to believe that Krags could've easily found their way into the armories of various ships during WW II in the fleet and used for second hand duties where a front line service rifle (Garand or 1903A3) either wasn't required or wasn't available.

You'd be amazed at all the old crap the Navy keeps around long after it's usefulness has passed. When Cecil Field was closed around 2000 and the Navy left people were finding parts and equipment for aircraft the navy hadn't operated in a squadron since the 1970's. The equipment was still in inventory even though there was no use for it.

Stretch

I think that applies to the government in general. Original crates of Model 1884 .45-70 rifles were still turning up in the 1940's. A great number of that particular model were apparently put aside when the "improved" version with ramrod bayonet came out in 1890. The new guns were used by State and miliitia troops in Cuba and the Philippines, while the last of the "obsolete" style, not yet fed into the supply chain, survived. Show me a "mint" TD today, and the odds are VERY high that it will be in the 460-475K range, cartouched [SWP/1889].

[jon_norstog]

First ship I was on was an old Navy seaplane tender that had lived an easy life on the west coast. Some kind of order came down and we snipes had to inventory every piece of equipment and all the parts on hand. Engineering had a huge space for parts and it was full of VERY expensive stuff. Anything that wasn't supposed to be on inventory got tossed into blue water. I just about cried throwing a beautiful Fairbanks Morse salt water pump, brand new and shiny, all brass and monel, over the side. It took 3 guys to heave a shore tie, twisted copper cable a big around as my arm. I think the same process went on with the gunners' lockers and the deck force stores.

Sailors tend to be pack rats, maybe because they don't have to carry that stuff on their backs.

jn

[p246]

I think that applies to the government in general. Original crates of Model 1884 .45-70 rifles were still turning up in the 1940's. A great number of that particular model were apparently put aside when the "improved" version with ramrod bayonet came out in 1890. The new guns were used by State and miliitia troops in Cuba and the Philippines, while the last of the "obsolete" style, not yet fed into the supply chain, survived. Show me a "mint" TD today, and the odds are VERY high that it will be in the 460-475K range, cartouched [SWP/1889].

Yep my nice one with good bore wood and good color case hardening is a 1889 in your serial number range.

[coastie]

I have been given to understand that 4 stack destroyers had '03 rifles AND Krags.
Early in WWII in the Pacific.
Novels have them noted from time to time.
Author Taylor Anderson's novels have them being used.

USCGC POINT BAKER...1966, Port Aransas, Texas.
Line throwing gun was a modified '93 Springfield.
Took out a light on a bollard first time I used it in drill.
First Class Bo'sun: "No, hit the damn light."
and I did!
Right through the lantern!
Never seen a man's eyes bug out before that day.
coastie

[jjrothWA]

Have FIL old "Blue Jacket" manual, listed small arms are:

1903 & 1903A3 and Musstte bag and how to prepare for field exercises
1911 & 1911A1 sidaerms
&
Winchester lever action in 45-70 for"Line throwing"

[dave]

The navy was seriously short of rifles at start of war. Plus they were last in line for procurement. They bought Moss. .22 44US models for training. They also purchased what Remington had left of the new 720 sporters, 900-1000 of them all in 30-06. Those were never used and years after the war they were given to Navy and Marines winners of matches, (new in box with original sling) To bother with a purchase of 1000 rifles (there were not any more nor would there ever be) shows desperation to me! Mine was won in 1979 by a Gunny.

[Bob S]

I have about 100 cases headstamped WRA 34; I've had them for over 50 years. Bought at LGS as once-fired brass. When I queried the Dope Bag guys in DC, I was told these were loaded for the Navy, for subcaliber training devices ... Krag barreled actions inserted into a 5"-51 or similar gun for cheap, short range "live fire" practice. I s'pose could have been fitted to the 5"-38 too. I wonder what the load was? I have been using them for light cast bullet loads, probably reloaded a dozen or more times.

Respectfully,
Bob S.

[psteinmayer]

Oddly enough, the trapdoor line-throwing guns are well documented, and a large contract for .45-70 blank ammo was issued to Winchester in 1943. They, however were simply a tool, not a weapon requiring a large supply of ammunition. They served well in that capacity. I have heard stories that .45-70 rifles were issued to at least a few backwater Coast Guard stations during WW2. Still have a hard time seeing Krags actually deployed on ships, but, it may have happened.

I have a full box of the 45-70 blank ammo, marked "For Line Throwing Guns" and headstamped WRA-43. When I acquired it (it was given to me), it was unopened. Unfortunately, I was young and uneducated about collectable military stuff, so I'm the one who opened the box. However, everything else is intact and the cartridges look pretty good! I've had it for more than 35 years.