View Full Version : Questions on two stamps on R.I. M1903
I have attached pics of Rock Island 339506.
Question 1 the circle P on stock is overstamped with a star. What does this mean.
Question 2 the bolt is marked RF 46. Any info on that.
Thanks in advance.398763987739878
Mark on underside of bolt39879
Overall pic just because39880
cplnorton
02-08-2017, 07:02
I'm betting the bolt is a BF 46. Just the B might be light and looks like a R. But here is a link to John's list on the BF 46. http://www.vishooter.net/slc12_2008.html
On the star, I would love to know myself. It's something several of us have been actively searching for in the Archives, but have never found it documented. I've seen them stamped in various locations on the 1903 stocks. I've also them stamped on the top of some Marine barrels, like on the 1903, and Garand. Which those stamps on the barrel are usually only stamped on "special" rifles. Now whether they are related, the ones stamped in wood, and on top of barrels I don't know. But I have seen some that appear stamped by the same stamp.
I have sometimes heard it nicknamed the "Philly Star" by experts. Implying that it was a stamp applied by the Marine Phillly Depot. But I don't know how I feel about that. It for sure does show up on some "Special" Marine rifles. But I don't know if it was exclusive to that. I could see someone arguing it many different ways.
Really honestly I think everything right now on it is speculation. I would love to know for sure though, I've always been intrigued by it.
Thanks, I'll look at JB s link. The rifle has a hatche rhole. I'll throw up more pics tomorrow to see ifs got any otherMarine attribituts. The butt plate is smooth though
cplnorton
02-08-2017, 01:41
I don't know for certain if it's 100% exclusive to the Marines, but I see a lot of these cut into Marine stocks. But it's a small milling cut under the bolt handle. Most look like small dents, but when you look really close you can see machining/tooling marks in the wood from it actually being cut.
It really looks like in your one pic, that your stock might have this cut under the bolt handle. I would look close at it and look for tooling marks.
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/P1240893_zpsl8icogub.jpg
Doesn't BF stand for Bonney Forge?
Doesn't BF stand for Bonney Forge?
That's what I've been told. My bolt is stamped BF 46 and it's on a 03a3.
Ill post some more pics tomorrow. Its parked so its been rebuilt. The bore is still very good. It does look like a poorly struck B under magnification. Have not found any rebuild cartouches on stock, but its surely been rebuilt at some point.
Hmmm....that 5 pointed star...I would like to know myself. Over the years there have been photos and discussions, but it appears to be VERY elusive. I happen to have an '03 with it on the barrel.
Someday, maybe.
Jim
Second 5 star stamp on bottom heal of stock39889
39898
CPLNORTON this does look machined
cplnorton
02-09-2017, 07:35
They are always a little hard to see, I saw them for years on stocks and just wrote them off as what looked like dents in the wood from bolts. Till one day I really took a good look and saw tooling marks, then I really started to watch for them. But yours looks pretty uniform in appearance, and looks like many I've seen.
The 2nd star on your stock is the more common place I see them. That is interesting though as your's has two.
I forget did you say what date the barrel is?
cplnorton
02-09-2017, 07:56
Ok it was a 9/18 barrel. Yeah it probably wouldn't have vise marks on it. You could pull the handguard and look, but it probably wouldn't unless the barrel had been pulled off a unserviceable receiver at some point and installed later.
The Marines pretty much started numbered bolts at almost the same time as they started to do hatcher holes. So if that was drilled by the Marines it most likely would have had a numbered bolt at one time, but that stuff was swapped a lot even back then, let alone 70 years plus later.
I wish I could tell you more on it, and maybe others like John could. I would probably guess it was more likely a Marine rifle at one time, than not. But it would be nice to know 100% for sure what that star does mean.
Thanks for what you got me. I'll pull the stock and see what we got. I also have 10 more R,I. To slowly figure out for future sale for my friend. 1 for sure was a NRA sales rifle and two more possible could be.
Seems every time I look over a rifle I see stuff then ask and learn. This time it's the stars and the CPL NORTON nicker under the bolt....hey we got to name it something.
Richard H Brown Jr
02-09-2017, 10:46
Has the stock really millled, or is it the result of the bolt handle being smacked down a few hundred times in rapid fire practice. Or range practice,or combat firing.
The reason I ask is, I read the previous comments and decided to look at the stock on my 03 and 03a3.
The 03a3 stock has lots of cartouches (obviously not a marine 03a3). And if I look closely at the area where the bolt handle meets the stock when the bolt is locked, there is a tiny half moon dent that's darker than the normal beautiful red color (of walnut wood that's had BLO, grease, cleaning solvent, Cosmoline worked into it)
The 03's (which according to some work by cpl norton on serial nos. *could* have been a marine 03) stock also has a tiny half moon ding where the bolt handle meets the stock.
Is it possible that the bolt handle milling caused the ding? Decide for yourself, look closely at the area where the bolt handle meets the stock when the bolt is closed, while you work the bolt.
If you look close at where the bolt handle meets the main tube of the bolt sleeve the flat area on the bolt handle that was milled out has a half moon-like surface on the left (looking at the bolt sleeve from below, with the sleeve pointing away from your body).
My 03 bolt sleeve's half moon has a sharper edge to it than the 03a3's bolt sleeve.
I seem to remember reading some place that at least in the Army, back in the old days where the rifles were racked in the barracks. To smooth the action, soldiers would tie back the trigger, and work the action to smooth the surfaces on the bolt and the receiver, and the magazine follower, to 'smooth the action' for faster, slicker bolt action.
Just my two cents worth.
Comments?
R Brown
This one appears cut using a magnifier. My 03A3 is not cut but does have what I will call a dimple from the bolt. It's not near as deep nor is it uniform in shape like this rifle. There are 10 more Rock Island 1903s I'm supposed to pick up and eventually sell for him. I plan to see what those look like in that area. It's an interesting mystery.
I had time to take more pics. Using a magnifier I appears to me to see cutter marks at the bottom of the half moon. But in closing the bolt it fits perfectly. I don't know myself which one is right. The wood doesn't look compressed or have any ridges but that could have been worn away long ago.3990839909
PS stock looks shinny as I took a soft bristle brush and BLO/turpentine mix to gently clean area to see it better3991039911
Richard this is the angle that makes me think it's cut. In the bottom of that C with a magnifier I swear I can see cutter marks. The area right above it does get hit by the bolt when closed. I can't 39913get any of my thin feeler gauges under the bolt in the above area. But I can get one started in the Deeper C shaped area. Once again not proof as stock could have shrunk just an observation. Off tonight and bored by the way so call me a geek.
Two pictures of star stamp after cleaned up3991439915
Pulled it out of stock. Full of cosmoline which I left. No vise marks on barrel. It had a C121 stamped on barrel3991639917
cplnorton
02-10-2017, 05:22
Yeah I really didn't think it would have vise marks. Not a 1918 dated barrel.
That star seems to be a special meaning. But it's very sporadic and rare, that the pattern is hard to decipher.
But honeslty if I encountered a stock with a star stamp on it, probalby one of the first things I would look for is that milling cut.
P246, look for a PM.
cplnorton
02-10-2017, 06:02
P246, your messages are full. Can you clean out some space sir.
Hey by morbid curiosity, does it have a number stamped on the side of the front sight blade? Like a .40 on it, or a number around that? It might be something you didn't notice because of the front sight cover. But if you shine a flashlight in there you should see it.
This was a Marine trait that was in a very small window of time. But with a Hatcher hole in that reciever and a early barrel, it might be there.
cplnorton
02-10-2017, 06:33
The first pic I showed probably wasn't a good one to show as that stock is beat to crap. But I've seen several different styles of them out there, and what that means I'm not sure.
But this is a nice clear one on a friends rifle. When you look at this one with glass, you could really see the tooling marks.
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/P1280862_zpskgyyugyw.jpg
Richard H Brown Jr
02-10-2017, 08:51
Well, still looks to me like a impact crater from the bolt handle.
Anyone willing to take a *new* 03/03a3 wood stock and put a barreled action in, and cycle the bolt group a few thousand times, hard?
R. Brown
cplnorton
02-10-2017, 09:41
Yeah I can see your point of view, and I am always the first to say I could be wrong. Especially when you trying to piece together traits of rifles that have been floating around for 70 plus years and had lots of hands on them. I've seen a few that I don't think there is any chance they were from a bolt hitting, but maybe I'm wrong. :) My wife says I'm wrong a lot. lol
Well, still looks to me like a impact crater from the bolt handle.
Anyone willing to take a *new* 03/03a3 wood stock and put a barreled action in, and cycle the bolt group a few thousand times, hard?
R. Brown
Lol Richard I'm out on that one. Once again you could be right its hard for me to decide with only seeing one.
P246, your messages are full. Can you clean out some space sir.
Hey by morbid curiosity, does it have a number stamped on the side of the front sight blade? Like a .40 on it, or a number around that? It might be something you didn't notice because of the front sight cover. But if you shine a flashlight in there you should see it.
This was a Marine trait that was in a very small window of time. But with a Hatcher hole in that reciever and a early barrel, it might be there.
Cpl.3993039931 Norton I had to carefully remove the front sight protector to see. Yes it has the .40 over a 2. It also has four punch marks on the back of the sight base. Photos attached.
Richard H Brown Jr
02-10-2017, 06:11
Batteries are dead in my digital camera, so I can't get close up of the ding in the stock and the curved junction on the bolt sleeves to post. 6 days or so till the new ones get here. Just try finding a 8yr old camera's batteries.
R Brown.
Batteries are dead in my digital camera, so I can't get close up of the ding in the stock and the curved junction on the bolt sleeves to post. 6 days or so till the new ones get here. Just try finding a 8yr old camera's batteries.
R Brown.
If you got 8 years out of a digital camera your doubling my luck.
Richard H Brown Jr
02-10-2017, 06:36
Don't use it much. Canon Powershot SD1100IS. Does go thru batteries. But the generic replacements from other mfr's are cheap now. Just something to carry.
RHB
Richard H Brown Jr
02-10-2017, 06:43
Cpl N wrote earlier:
The first pic I showed probably wasn't a good one to show as that stock is beat to crap. But I've seen several different styles of them out there, and what that means I'm not sure.
But this is a nice clear one on a friends rifle. When you look at this one with glass, you could really see the tooling marks.
Did you look at the bolt sleeve down where it transitions from the squared off to the rounded part of the bolt handle? There's a half circle transitition point on the bottom, where the edge of the flat meets the rounded area of the bolt handle. I noticed on my 03 that the transition has a sharper edge to the half circle than the one on my 03a3. Which is why I'm saying the ding might be from bolt manipulation.
Practicing over years with an empty rifle to cycle the bolt to get the 5 rounds off fast, and then reload.
I'll post pics of my 03 and 03a3 down by that point on the stock, and a closeup of the transition point on the bolt handle for both. To show why I think it's a ding from the bolt handle.
R. Brown
cplnorton
02-10-2017, 10:30
Richard, you are totally right on the bolts and I know exactly what you mean. And I do think some that you see on stocks are just from dents from the bolts. But I just think there are some too that are machine cut, as when you really look at them especially with a magnifying glass, you can see tooling marks. And there is space between the wood and bolt, like the wood has been relieved.
But no your logic is 100% sound, and I do understand and agree with what your saying. I've just seen some mentions in documents about removing wood around areas of the rifle where any metal touches, and I do wonder if this might have been something that was part of that process.
But no, you make very valid points.
cplnorton
02-10-2017, 11:14
Norton I had to carefully remove the front sight protector to see. Yes it has the .40 over a 2. It also has four punch marks on the back of the sight base. Photos attached.
Yeah I have no doubt now. For a very short time right before WWII, the Marines would use numbered front sight blades on their rebuilds coming from the Philly Depot. They are rare to find today as they never show up on wartime produced Marine barrels, and wartime produced barrels are the most commonly seen ones on Marine rebuilds. But with yours having the early barrel and the Hatcher, I thought their might be a chance.
.40 was the standard one that came on every rifle from Philly, but other sizes were used to change the zero of the rifle.
Tim Plowman is the one who found this at the Archives, so he deserves full credit for finding this. But not long before this numbered sight document was written, the Marines had bought the tooling and fixtures off SA to drill the Hatcher holes. So if a rifle shipped from Philly with a numbered sight, it should also have a hatcher hole. They had also just bought a electopencil Machine to start to number bolts. So I really do think it had a numbered bolt at one time and was just been swapped.
From reading the docs, the numbered sights were not around long, and it only seems they did it maybe a couple years. By the time the war starts, they seemed to have stopped.
I've seen mention of numbered sights in SA docs, but those were a much earlier time period and don't match this rifle at all. I have also seen that 2 on the front sight of other Marine rifles with numbered sights.
I know it's easy to change a front sight, but we just found this doc and I don't think anyone knew anything about this to even fake one. So to me, I have zero doubt that is a Marine rifle now.
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a535/cplnorton11/numbered%20front%20sight%20blade_zpse1rr8e3z.jpg
Thanks Cpl. Norton for that explanation.
Richard H Brown Jr
02-12-2017, 11:28
I've just seen some mentions in documents about removing wood around areas of the rifle where any metal touches, and I do wonder if this might have been something that was part of that process.
CPL N:
Sure you're not refering to shooters taking rasps and files and carving wood out of the stock where the barrel touches the wood, so as to make the barrel "free-floating"? Leaving only the trigger guard screws holding the receiver in the stock, and the lower and upper bands holding the hanguard in place.
I've read accounts where that was done by competive shooters on their 03's.
All you 03 owners, how about taking a look in the barrel channel and seeing if there is any indicaton of "woodworking" besides the original fitting of the barreled action to the stock. I do realize that arsenal rebuilds after WW2 would have swapped out the *adjusted* stocks for as-issued stocks with minor fitting. But there should be a few stocks that got past the rebuild inspectors, or 03's tht were sold off before they could go thru arsenal rebuild.
R. Brown
I should be picking up several of the other Rock Islands this week. I know there is a 1905 1909 and two 1912 dated ones in the liter. The first thing I was going to look at was the area under the bolt handle to see what they looked like.
cplnorton
02-13-2017, 05:36
CPL N:
Sure you're not refering to shooters taking rasps and files and carving wood out of the stock where the barrel touches the wood, so as to make the barrel "free-floating"? Leaving only the trigger guard screws holding the receiver in the stock, and the lower and upper bands holding the hanguard in place.
They 100% for sure did do that. The two stocks I pictured earlier in this thread have that done interally as well. But they are stocks that are from former Marine team rifles. But that wasn't the only thing they did to them, the Marines really worked them over. These mods weren't done on the normal rebuilds.
See it almost seems that star has some association with either Marine team rifles, or Special Target rifles that were former team rifles rebuilt by Philly for use in Marine Divisional Matches. Or rifles that were built from parts leftover by this program. At least the stars that you see on the barrels seem to have that correlation. If the star stamp on the stock means the same as the ones you see on the barrel, I really honestly suspect that stock might have had a similar past as well.
His barreled action doesn't show any signs of that, so my guess is that stock has been recylced to that action either in rebuild, or added at some other time, or that star on that means something different entirely.
But it's all a guess at this point, and a lot hinges on if that star stamp on the stocks and the barrels mean the same thing. Which we don't even know what that meaning for sure is on the ones on the barrel.
So just a lot of questions, and not a lot of supporitng documentation. :)
Cpl Norton your post got me going over metal looking for a star. I did miss this P stamp on underside of barrel just below front sight. 39986
So no star on end of barrel. Unless it's under the cosmoline below the stock line there is no star on barrel. I did take a picture of punch mark on front of sight.39987
cplnorton
02-13-2017, 06:39
Yeah the star stamp isn't like the star guage stamp from SA. It's on the top of the barrel underneath the date, and forward of the band.
Here's one on a Marine rifle. We just don't know a lot about them though and why they are so rare.
39988
Richard H Brown Jr
02-13-2017, 06:49
Back again in ref to the bolt dimple on the stock.
Excuse the poor photo's as I'm not really good with this digital camera.
photo 001a.jpg is the area where the bolt handle meets the mainn part of the bolt sleeve. I increased the contrast to show how the round part melds into the flat and shows the straight line across and the bit of an angled areaat the meeting point. (If that makes sense)
39991
Photo M1903 Stock Dimple 003a.jpg is the area on the stock where the dimple is. I put the area in a badly done white square and posted the approx size of the dimple as best I could measure it.
39992
If you can see the roughness of the stock, the was extremely dry when I got the weapon and I treated it with Boiled Linseed Oil to nourish the wood. But at a cost of causing the grain to pop up.
I'm wondering if part of the tooling marks commented on, are actually the grain of the wood popping out after the 90-70 yr old walnut stocks being treated with BLO or other wood treetment compounds.
Comments?
R. Brown
I don't know. On my Remington 03 and 03A3 there is some marring from the bolt handle touching the stock but not the half moon cut I see on this rifle. I'm interested to get my hands on the other Rock Islands and look that area over. Like so many things about these guns you usually end up answering one question only to raise three more. You could absolutely be right or maybe the marines did a minor relief cut. I think unless one of the guy doing research finds a document at the archives we may never know. Hopefully they can continue to dig up more information on this kind of stuff.
As far as BLO if the wood grain is broken I can't see it moving much, but if the wood grain is just dented then like steaming one could raise it at least some.
Richard H Brown Jr
02-14-2017, 05:14
Just had another thought.
How many USMC rebuild facilities were used in inspecting and reassembling 1903's after they were returned from general issue and replaced with M-1 Garands and M-1 Carbines? It could be that all those relief millings (if they are millings) were done at ony one facility?
The trouble with all the time that has passed, is that the records and any memorandums/letters are either totally lost, or they're totally lost in all the USMC records in NARA.
And another problem is that there are two distinct types of bolt sleever, the original 1903 straight bolt sleeve, and then the later WW2 angled bolt handle sleeve.
I just love coming up with more variables to the problem.
R Brown
Re: that dent in the stock. I don't have my 1903A4 rifles with me currently to try/check, but would a 1903A4 bent handle bolt that was tried in the rifle make that kind of dent? Ray
Richard H Brown Jr
02-14-2017, 02:30
Rayg:
Good point. Did a quick check at numrich catalog and we get: https://www.gunpartscorp.com/ad/525410.htm
So there are curved handle and straight handle field test bolts. One wonders if the curved field bolt or the straight filed bolt handle would make these dents.
An aside: I did a quick goohoo ( google/yahoo ) search for "M1903 field test bolt" and among the hits was Brophy's book _The Springfield 1903 Rifles_ . There is a lot of information that he culled from offical documents including all sorts of information on cartouches. Makes me wish I have a copy.
R Brown
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