View Full Version : Lithgow stock repair
So just starting a running thread on the subject of a Lithgow Coachwood stock I need to fix. I plan to update the thread as I go step by step. I claim no expert status just like to work on my own stuff. I'll post the plan and if you have a better idea let me know I have thick skin.
Back story 1941 Lithgow rebuilt in 1945 and given a new barrel. Stock and hadguard appear to match in wear but forwood looks much less abused. The forward had a crack on right side that had been fixed with two brass pins (IMO this fix is non military). This is a rifle I shoot and the last session it cracked on the left side along the wood grain. I need to fix the left crack and I want to improve the fix on the right side. All without screwing up my fit on the gun as it was shooting well. Pics below, on post two I'all post my current plan. 400134001440015
First I need to get the oil off so glue will stick. I plan to immerse it in acetone for one hour. Pull it and let it air dry for a couple days. Spread left crack and work Tite Bond III into it, clamp it up and let it dry. On the right side same but spreading crack will not be possible. Once dry drill for an Oak peg in the back of the left crack and center of right. Finish pegs to match wood level. I''m thinking I should cut dutchmans at the end of each crack to ensure they do not walk but this might be overkill. Once fitted I'll submit to peer pressure and refinish it with raw Linseed oil cut with turpentine. The RLO will be stand Oil bought at a hobby shop. Any input before I jump in is welcome.
JB White
02-16-2017, 09:38
Going with RLO means you've submitted to peer pressure from one segment of the community. ;)
Get yourself a little chunk of coachwood. Old sporterized stocks are an excellent source. Aside from cutting them up to make patches, the smaller cutoffs can be used to produce coachwood sawdust. Handy for stopping cracks from traveling further. Drill a small hole at the very end of the crack and make up a "sawdust putty" as a filler. This is where BLO comes in handy because it does harden to a point where the "plug" will become almost invisible. You may not be able to see the very end of the crack, so use a little mineral spirits to highlight the grain.
When pinning a crack as you have done, I have always predrilled, then at times tapped the hole in the wood while clamped. That way when I install my homemade threaded rod it will grab without spreading apart the grain.
If you wish to hide the rod, you can drill the top slightly below the surface. That's where the sawdust putty and BLO comes in handy again.
BTW, I feel oak to be a terrible wood for stock work. Other hardwoods have tighter grain and will color to match much more readily. Oak is an open grain, tears more easily, and darkens to black when used as a dowel.
Thanks JB, which hardwood dowel do you suggest. Oak is just any easy hardwood to find here. White Pine being the other one, but not a hard wood. (EDIT: I FOUND A LOCAL SOURE FOR HARDWOOD MAPLE DOWEL WOULD THAT WORK BETTER)
The two pins someone else used on the right side either were not pre drilled or were way to small which is why it cracked again where they were inserted. I'd like to pull them drill and use my own pin, but pulling them might be an issue.
I do have a coachwood sporter stock. I was going to use it for my Dutchman wood slivers. I was going with a Dutchman approach as it's a traditional way they were fixed in the military. Your method is much less time consuming. I don't know which is stronger. I have plenty of time for this project, but only want to do it once.
I figured the RLO finish would just be a good discussion,
JB White
02-16-2017, 02:28
Maple is a much better alternative than oak IMHO. I've used the 'pinhole' method to stop a crack from traveling when I didn't want to see a patchwork on the side of an otherwise nice looking rifle. If you feel as though you can exactly duplicate a proper armorers repair then it's up to you. Just don't use an India method on an Australian arm, or a US type of repair on a British arm. I'm sure you know the difference by now, so let's not give the forgers something else to work with eh?
A repair is a repair. Something we can do to preserve without being overly intrusive. I tended to use the larger repairs when something was actually missing and needed putting back to be functional. ie. the chunks sometimes missing from along side the triggerguard, or a kerf repair to save an original and matching handguard.
For the record, is the oak dowel from your local store actually oak, or is it ash? Ash resembles oak once finished. That's why much packaged decorative work, such as finials, sold as oak are really ash. Ash turns better without tearing out.
Thanks for the input. This dowel is actually Oak, there is a local cabinet repair guy I got it from. He also has hard maple, just didn't ask. Your pin hole method or hiding brass wire screw under plug probably makes more sense on these cracks. The right side does not appear to be glued just pinned. I'm going to try and gently spread it and see if the brass pins will stand up to be pulled. If they were just cut off brass nails there is a chance. If true wire screws or what ever they are called then they won't. At that point I might try to set them deep enough to drill and plug. The right side was fixed by bubba. Does anyone marked there stock as repaired in modern times for ethical reasons. I thought about putting a note in the butt trap, but someone could just throw it away.
JB White
02-16-2017, 05:28
I often forgot to do this, but on most occasions I just penciled a date and my initials inside the forend or under the handguard. Later I used a fine point Sharpie. If I did a restoration I made sure to do it in several locations including beneath the buttplate.
So, if you ever discover the initials JBW with a US type date format...odds are it might have been me.
For the record, I never passed one off as original, nor did I ever sell one at the same price as original. Never had a problem selling so long as I was honest about it. Had a good number tell me thanks and not buy, but the next one who came along didn't seem to mind.
Reminded myself of the time I sold a repro P'03 bayonet frog. The buyer INSISTED it was the real deal. Even after I insisted that I was the one who made it! I simply copied another repro. Showed him my own markings! He walked off thinking he had stolen it. There are some crazies out there...but they have money. :)
Nice story. I like your idea so I'll mark the inside of the stock in a few places, and do the same to my others I've fixed. I have not sold any, probably won't for years. Kids are interested in American stuff but not the L.E.s....yet. If that holds in 30 years or so I'll pass them on to next guy.
No luck getting bubba pins out. I can spread it but pins don't work out. I'all probably glue it up tight and dowel it between pins and just leave them where they are. I guess they at least might add some side to side support but that's it.
Out of the acetone. Now to let is air dry a couple days.4002440025
bigedp51
02-17-2017, 12:11
Going with RLO means you've submitted to peer pressure from one segment of the community. ;)
He didn't give in, stand oil is actual boiled linseed oil. So he gave into you or else didn't do his homework.
Stand Oil, manufactured by heating a pure refined linseed oil, is a heavy oil that wets pigments well.
Stand oil is linseed oil that has been polymerized by heating. It is thicker than cold pressed or alkalai refined oils, and has almost no tendency to yellow. It is useful for glazing, and helps to eliminate brush marks. AP non-toxic.
Oil Painting Mediums
http://www.dickblick.com/categories/oilmediums/#linseedanddryingoils
JB White
02-17-2017, 08:42
Talk about not doing homework?
True Raw Linseed oil is merely oil which has been warmed and allowed to stand to remove the sediments.
Refined Linseed Oil (which is what people actually use as "RLO" has also been treated with acid to expedite the removal of those same impurities. If your RLO has a yellowish/light amber hue to it then it's RLO as in 'refined'.
BLO (which is not really boiled) has been refined similar to RLO (refined) but has the addition of driers to form a thicker barrier once cured.
Stand Oil is a more refined Linseed Oil which as you noted has been heated similar to RAW to thicken. However the choice of driers and thinners are up to the user and his/her choice of application. Most artists do not use driers mixed with their paints as it does not yellow/patina. However house painters and some woodworkers do.
Where the difference in opinions lie is in what's original, what is correct, and what is practical for today.
Originally the rifle stocks were dipped into vats of heated oil then swung off on racks to a climate controlled drying room. We no longer have that luxury of heated vats and drying rooms, especially in our homes. Since old correspondence has surfaced mentioning the use of 'boiled oil' for maintenance, many (such as myself) choose to continue that regimen. Also, since our stocks were originally soaked in "RLO" it's already in there...to an extent at least.
For penetration we dilute our BLO allowing it to wick into the wood fibers. Once it thickens (let's call it..dries) it then begins to give us back that patina we all adore. It also is less likely to "sweat" in our hands and onto our clothes for the next few years when we are shooting in direct sunlight.
Stand oil is something relatively new for surplus collectors. It's said that it 'dries' much slower and doesn't age, since its use is geared more towards art than rifle stocks. If it's diluted and/or has driers added by its user (Jap drier etc.)..I don't know. Mostly because until recently it hasn't been used all that much on our end and....it's been shared by the Purist/RLO crowd as being better than the refined linseed oil. Hence my comment to P246 (not to you) and the little "winking smiley face" that you obviously missed.
bigedp51
02-17-2017, 02:34
Stand oil is actual boiled linseed oil heated to 300 degrees and when heated it is polymerized and forms long molectular chains and becomes thicker.
Todays fake BLO is linseed oil with japan drier added and thickening agents.
Heated or thinned raw Linseed oil soaks deeper into the wood than any form of BLO that is designed as a faster drying surface application.
And my point being raw linseed oil is what was used on our American and British military small arms and any form of BLO was never used.
Pure raw linseed oil is non-toxic and can be applied bare handed without wearing protective gloves.
I do not care if you put whale snot on your stocks, I'm just telling everyone the military used raw linseed oil and never used BLO.
The principle behind raw linseed oil is the same as building a wooded canoe. Raw linseed oil is applied until the wood will not absorb any more then varnish is applied to the surface. The raw linseed oil prevents wood shrinkage and water leakage and the varnish is a protective outer coating.
Bottom line, the military used raw linseed oil and never used BLO for a reason. And the use of BLO is nothing more than a Internet myth.
And truth be told my refinished shooter Enfields and M1 rifles were treated like a canoe, 75% military with a 25% non-military protective outer coating.
Stand Oil is what I happen to have, the peer pressure comment was apparently a failed attempt at humor. I know it's not the same as the original Raw Linseed Oil. However it is close enough for me and does not turn color with age. The stock repair wo't be original either. For one modern glues such as tite bond III did not exist. The stand Oil finish is simply picked for this stock because I actually hunt white tail with it. BLO can be a little difficult to get the "sheen" out of. Once again this is a hobby for me and I'm sure there are plenty who could knock BLO sheen down but I struggle with that. I could have picked tung oil to but just decided to go stand oil this time. Maybe you can do a write up refinishing a stock with true RLO. I might do it one day, butI'm hoping my stuff don't crack for a while.
Edit: I will also add that many manufacturers advertise their RLO as being the real deal when it's actually refined some. It's gotten to the point one must actually call the manufacturer and ask.
bigedp51
02-17-2017, 05:31
Stand Oil is what I happen to have, the peer pressure comment was apparently a failed attempt at humor. I know it's not the same as the original Raw Linseed Oil. However it is close enough for me and does not turn color with age. The stock repair wo't be original either. For one modern glues such as tite bond III did not exist. The stand Oil finish is simply picked for this stock because I actually hunt white tail with it. BLO can be a little difficult to get the "sheen" out of. Once again this is a hobby for me and I'm sure there are plenty who could knock BLO sheen down but I struggle with that. I could have picked tung oil to but just decided to go stand oil this time. Maybe you can do a write up refinishing a stock with true RLO. I might do it one day, butI'm hoping my stuff don't crack for a while.
I wrote many postings on types of linseed oil in the past and posted photos of the different types of oils found in hobby stores that sold oil painting supplies applied to a butt stock.
The peer pressure comment made by Mr. White is because we have "discussed" BLO and RLO hundreds of times.
I sold off the majority of my milsurp rifles and bought new rifles that I could put scopes on for my chronologically gifted eyesight.
At one time I had the only and largest Enfield book and manual stickys anywhere on the Internet. I was accused of breaking copyright laws and both stickys were shut down. The strange thing is everything I had in my stickys is now at milsurps.com and not breaking any copyright laws. And Badger banned me from his website for posting a photo at another website and said I was violating copyright laws. Its amazing what Steve Ridgwell at .303british.com and Badger did at milsurps to control what I was giving away for free.
I don't care what you put on your stocks, I'm just tell you what the military used and it was non-toxic and rubbed on by hand.
I wrote many postings on types of linseed oil in the past and posted photos of the different types of oils found in hobby stores that sold oil painting supplies applied to a butt stock.
The peer pressure comment made by Mr. White is because we have "discussed" BLO and RLO hundreds of times.
I sold off the majority of my milsurp rifles and bought new rifles that I could put scopes on for my chronologically gifted eyesight.
At one time I had the only and largest Enfield book and manual stickys anywhere on the Internet. I was accused of breaking copyright laws and both stickys were shut down. The strange thing is everything I had in my stickys is now at milsurps.com and not breaking any copyright laws. And Badger banned me from his website for posting a photo at another website and said I was violating copyright laws. Its amazing what Steve Ridgwell at .303british.com and Badger did at milsurps to control what I was giving away for free.
I don't care what you put on your stocks, I'm just tell you what the military used and it was non-toxic and rubbed on by hand.
Only joining milsurps recently I have no knowledge of that and am sorry there was that kind of drama. The cold pressed Linseed oil, refined Linseed oil, BLO debate will go on. My use of stand Oil is me simply raiding the wife's art supplies. If I had cold pressed on hand I wouldn't be against using it. So I acknowledge there are more traditional methods of RLO. Having said that I don't want to get sidetracked. If one wants to look up the cold pressed Linseed oils and different grades of turpentine google/bing will bring up a lot of information.
JB White
02-17-2017, 06:33
Ed, you and I had a few discussions over the past couple of decades but I don't recall any "discussions". Aside from maybe being involved in the same thread with numerous others on various boards.
As far as you being banned from other collectors boards, I do recall your being warned about uncredited content you were posting in addition to your behavior at that time. If you swipe someone else's work and take it upon yourself to distribute it...
You were also banned from Gunboards and at least one more that you neglected to mention.
It's a shame that you can't simply offer your work and opinions without expecting others to toe your line and bow at your altar. People should be allowed to take it or leave it without controversy. Too bad. Some of the things you came up with on your own I found quite interesting.
Prior to gluing I carefully outline the crack with Waxilit. I use a q tip and toothpick to apply the wax. One must be careful not to get any Waxilit where you want the glue to stick. When the glue is squeezed out of the crack it will not stick to the surface you don't want glue on (booger tracks-technical term). Once the glue dries it can be pulled off the waxed areas and trimmed up over the crack. Waxilit can be easily cleaned off with acetone when done. Waxilit is a little pricey but 70grams goes a long ways. I've had much better luck this way than with tape. Any other methods aside from Waxilit or tape out there.40032
bigedp51
02-17-2017, 08:39
Ed, you and I had a few discussions over the past couple of decades but I don't recall any "discussions". Aside from maybe being involved in the same thread with numerous others on various boards.
As far as you being banned from other collectors boards, I do recall your being warned about uncredited content you were posting in addition to your behavior at that time. If you swipe someone else's work and take it upon yourself to distribute it...
You were also banned from Gunboards and at least one more that you neglected to mention.
It's a shame that you can't simply offer your work and opinions without expecting others to toe your line and bow at your altar. People should be allowed to take it or leave it without controversy. Too bad. Some of the things you came up with on your own I found quite interesting.
Actually its a shame you get bent out of shape when people post the facts on RLO that contradict you using BLO.
And Gunboards and Parallax Bills is where my Enfield stickys were and closed down and where deals were made between the owners of the other websites to shut down my sticky. And its Badger at milsurps who was served a letter from a Lawyer concerning Jim Sweets book that was put back in print by his daughter. I was told the copyright was renewed but for some strange reason the Australian that warned me never said a word to that back stabbing Badger and he got what he deserved.
And Gunboards is where Alan De Enfield AKA Alan De Pretentious is using all my photos and taking credit for my work. And you never saw any posting in a Enfield forum where I was warned about "being warned about uncredited content". After my sticky was shut down the owner got bent out of shape when I gave out more Enfield manuals under the posting subject of "Free Beer". So go to Gunboards and look at all the images that Alan De Enfield is posting and try and to remember who posted them first. Alan De Enfield never had a original idea in his life and just posts images and information he copied from someone else.
And our "discussions" were the ones just like this one and you not liking someone bringing up the subject of raw linseed oil after you telling people to use BLO.
And anything I posted normally came from all the manuals I had or talking to British and Commonwealth armourers. Meaning you never saw me telling anyone to use BLO.
So here you are getting bent out of shape "again" as usual and spreading crap over the subject of the proper type oil to apply to a stock.
Right side crack was spread after Waxilit applied. Tite Bond III was then worked into the crack with a business card. I keep scissors handy and keep cutting away the card as it gets soft from glue on the tip. I work glue in until I can see it coming out on the inside. I then clamp it down with two clamps equipped with rubber pads. The glue will squeeze out and form a line over the crack. I wait till the glue gets tacky then wipe off excess with damp rag. The Waxilit will remain on the stock. Keep in mind some of this will depend on what glue you use.
In the photos you can see the film of Waxilit. I took a damp q tip and traced over where the crack was for the photo. Tite Bond calls for 30 minutes minimum dry time. I leave it clamped for an entire day, probably overkill.
4003340034
JB White
02-18-2017, 03:21
Waxilit...neat trick. That's a new one on me. I've always used tape and a scraper, and paste wax. I'm sure you remember those old drills? :)
I'll bet the guys back in the cabinet shop knew about it but they didn't tell us out in the field....those bassturds! LOL
LOL JB yes I learned it from my cabinet shop friend. He's not a gun guy so sometimes he just shakes his head back and forth at me but he always gives good advice.
Both sides glued up. Acetone used to remove the Waxilit for now. I had to order hard maple dowels as the local shop only had stuff that was too big in diameter. Once it is in I'll vertical drill and install the wood pegs. Blend, stain, and finish. Then to see if it still stocks up. Time will tell.4005340054
JB White
02-19-2017, 05:40
Like you said, time will tell. It looks like you pulled it off! Nice going.
Pegging the left side close to the back will be the no room for error challenge. Once I get the dowel and look it over I'll know a tad bit more on how to exactly proceed. The right side and front of left side causes me little concern. Plenty of wood to work with.
oldyella
02-19-2017, 12:53
nice job.
here's another type of lithgow crack repair.
http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=324-Repairing-a-Split-Stock-on-a-Lithgow-SMLE
All pegs are glued in and stain is on. Letting it sit a day or to than the finish can go on. Hopefully the pegs will blend a little more with oil. 4009540096
4 pegs total, two on each side. one peg on each end of the crack.400974009840099
Well wife busted me with her stand Oil and it got repossessed. So the art store had one bottle of cold pressed Linseed Oil left. I cut it 50 50 with pure pin gum turpentine. We will see how this works out.40118
Well three hand rubbing sessions of RLO later and this one is ready for test firing. The Forewood fit right back up nicely. No gap at the wrist face, or at least my .005 gauge never slipped in anywhere but the very top last tenth of an inch. Nose cap fit right back up. I have 7.5 lbs up pressure on barrel, what it was before. The rear handguard had to be relieved slightly on right side so it was not touching rear sight. Draws nice and tight, she should be good for a while. The butt stock and foreword handguard appear to match in color and abuse. The foreword and rear handguard appeared to match from the 45 rebuild. The foreword right now is not as yellow as the Rear handguard. As the RLO ages it should start to yellow on the forwewood. I marked the stock on the inside P246 2017 for whoever gets it in the future. Pics to follow.
JB White
03-01-2017, 01:16
You pulled off the repairs without getting to 'gimmicky' about it. Good job. Only two little things IF it were mine.
1. I'd wait a bit to make sure everything is cured before shooting. I know...I know, it's OK but my mind runs on the conservative side.
2. Based just on the photos, it looks as though it's going to need some more oil in the stock?
Are you familiar with the old linseed oil adage?
Once a day for a week.
Once a week for a month.
Once a month for a year.
*Once a year thereafter*
*some cite that last line while most of the old timers don't*
Good job. Repaired as needed without putting makeup on a sow. :)
You pulled off the repairs without getting to 'gimmicky' about it. Good job. Only two little things IF it were mine.
1. I'd wait a bit to make sure everything is cured before shooting. I know...I know, it's OK but my mind runs on the conservative side.
2. Based just on the photos, it looks as though it's going to need some more oil in the stock?
Are you familiar with the old linseed oil adage?
Once a day for a week.
Once a week for a month.
Once a month for a year.
*Once a year thereafter*
*some cite that last line while most of the old timers don't*
Good job. Repaired as needed without putting makeup on a sow. :)
Yep JB I should have made it clear its in the gun safe for a couple weeks, I was going to hit the whole thing again then give it another two weeks. I figured after a month it should be good to shoot. I have plenty of RLO left so I can hit it a few more times then I had planned. I appreciate the heads up on that, and will add that to the list.
I do treat my good wood stocks every year (I usually hit all my wood guns once a year, most are in BLO or Tung, this one and a couple older L.E.s will be done in RLO). When I do its really light just to keep the wood in good shape. Might not be necessary for all because some do not see much daylight. The exception to that rule is a few beater project guns that are laying around.
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