Few questions on an 1899 carbine I picked up recently

[M1Riflenut]

While I eagerly await Farmers book I thought I would ask a few questions on an 1899 carbine I recently brought home.
It has no handguard and a 1902 rear sight. Would this have had a "C" marked sight originally? S/N is 353464

If I leave the 1902 on it, what do I use for a handguard and how does it stay on? I see no way for anything to keep it in place.

I also need the sight base screws. Someone had brass wood screws jammed in it. Threads in barrel look fine. Other than Ebay, is there a place that sells parts?

It had a snap on front sight hood on it, like those seen on M1903's. Did krags ever use this type of front sight hood?

Thanks,
Dave

[Dick Hosmer]

While I eagerly await Farmers book I thought I would ask a few questions on an 1899 carbine I recently brought home.
It has no handguard and a 1902 rear sight.


Would this have had a "C" marked sight originally? S/N is 353464 Yes, and M1902C sights are scarce.

If I leave the 1902 on it, what do I use for a handguard and how does it stay on? The handguard for the M1902 sight uses the same two sets of clips common to all Krags

I see no way for anything to keep it in place. You do not by any chance have a 30" stock, do you? The barrel band unique to that stock was never meant to be used with the 1902 sight, which was only intended for use with the 32" stock.

I also need the sight base screws. Someone had brass wood screws jammed in it. Threads in barrel look fine. Other than Ebay, is there a place that sells parts? Try the vendors listed at www.trapdoorcollector.com

It had a snap on front sight hood on it, like those seen on M1903's. Did krags ever use this type of front sight hood? Yes, and they are quite valuable

Thanks,
Dave

[butlersrangers]

'M1Riflenut': Some pictures to help with your model 1899 Krag carbine questions.
(1. Krag 1902 rifle sight & hand-guard - the carbine sight uses the same h-g. 2. Krag model 1899 carbine barrel-band. 3. Reproduction 1902 type hand-guard showing barrel-springs. 4., 5. and 6. model 1902 carbine sight - "C" may occur on either side of base, binding-knob may vary, some have swing-up 'peep'. 7. 1899 carbine front-sight and 'snap-on' cover/hood.

4005740058400594006040061

[butlersrangers]

The rest of the pictures:

4006240063

Hand-guard caution: Krag hand-guards are easily cracked. DO NOT snap hand-guard on and off barrel. The best method is to slide hand-guard on or off barrel, with rear-sight removed and barreled-action out of stock.

It is wise to store 'unattached' hand-guards with coins inserted to counter act spring tension (a Quarter and a Nickel).

Decent replica sight screws can be purchased from S & S Firearms, Glendale, N.Y.

[M1Riflenut]

Thanks guys for the information and tips. I'll try and get some pics up later this week. My front sight cover is the same as the one pictured above, with the C mark. This same shop had a few others but this one seemed to be the best. What I never noticed was if any of the others had the C marked sight. Also, there was one that looked like manlicher type stock. I assumed it was a modified rifle stock? It didn't go all the way to the end of the barrel but was defineatly longer than a carbine stock. Maybe a Bannerman rifle? Either way, I seem to recall it had a handguard. For $450 it might be worth it as a parts gun.

[Dick Hosmer]

Check the serial number on the short rifle. If the barrel is 26" and the number is in the 387-389K range buy it!!!!! If the barrel is 22", is turned down for about 1/2" at the muzzle, and the stock stops the same distance from the muzzle as on a full-length rifle, it is a "school gun" made up for college ROTC use. Still a good price, unless it is a dog.

[M1Riflenut]

Check the serial number on the short rifle. If the barrel is 26" and the number is in the 387-389K range buy it!!!!! If the barrel is 22", is turned down for about 1/2" at the muzzle, and the stock stops the same distance from the muzzle as on a full-length rifle, it is a "school gun" made up for college ROTC use. Still a good price, unless it is a dog.
Thanks for the tip! I'm hoping to get back to that shop thursday night. Been getting out of work to late this week but they are open late thursdays.

[5MadFarmers]

It had a snap on front sight hood on it, like those seen on M1903's. Did krags ever use this type of front sight hood?

Thanks,
Dave

Careful on those - reproductions are out there. The reproductions look not too bad. Cheap and don't work well though. Which is really a problem as they look right - hard to tell from original. With a repro and an original to compare it becomes pretty clear but that's not a sight thing - more texture and such.

[5MadFarmers]

Would this have had a "C" marked sight originally? S/N is 353464


In the book with why and a letter that dates it. No M-1899 carbines from the three primary blocks shipped with the M-1902 sight. After the 3 primary blocks "new" carbines are in almost non-existent numbers. So that's really yet another iteration of "let's replace all the sights again." That number is really third block and that's M-1901 sight land. M-1902 is a redo.

One will normally find M-1899 stocks with three different years in the cartouche. "1902" isn't one of them. That too is a sign.

[Kragrifle]

I have two 1899 carbines with the 1902 cartouche. Both of these have seen use. Cartouches are real (I have seen the bad ones). Serial numbers not available right now but are in the 360K to 370K range. Supposedly 200 or so were dated 1902.

[5MadFarmers]

I have two 1899 carbines with the 1902 cartouche. Both of these have seen use. Cartouches are real (I have seen the bad ones). Serial numbers not available right now but are in the 360K to 370K range. Supposedly 200 or so were dated 1902.

Springfield's production reports are tabulated on page 256 in the book. From their annual production reports. They list exactly 1 made in FY02-03.

Strange thing is I encountered that 1. How's that for needle in a haystack?

With that data point, is it possible that more than 1 received later cartouches? Certainly. If the, say, Navy wanted 200 of them and wanted them inspected SA would do so. So clearly within the realm of possible and within the realm of what's been observed from them.

The bulk of them were in the three blocks. Outside of those it's the typical odd dribs and drabs for reasons only they were clear on.

Is it possible that they'd put 1902 sights on small dribs and drabs? Well, they did make those sights for something right?

The missing piece is an unexpected personnel change. Two in fact. M-1899 carbines past the 1901 production are oddities. 1 new manufacture per their record. Anything else is a redo of an existing gun.

So why no carbines of note in 1902 or 1903? "The regulars were going to get the M-1902 (which became the M-1903)." The Militia? "Refused to maintain mounted troops in significant numbers due to the cost of maintaining horses." Infantry is cheap. Mounted not so much.

[Kragrifle]

Tom Pearce made the observation that unless you find a rifle/carbine in new/unused condition you cannot know for certain the "as originally produced" configuration . He was never able to find a 1902 dated carbine in that condition.

[5MadFarmers]

Tom Pearce made the observation that unless you find a rifle/carbine in new/unused condition you cannot know for certain the "as originally produced" configuration.

He's 100% on with that.


He was never able to find a 1902 dated carbine in that condition.

Post the 1901 batch we observe the overstrikes. Logic tells us, the serials also indicate it, that those were "make a carbine" guns. A rifle receiver overstruck to 1899. Why did they bother? I have no idea.

I observed one 1899 with a serial "out of range" from the rest which wasn't an overstrike. Very surprised to see it. Serial indicated that was likely the 02/03 gun. Is it possible for me to know for sure? Nope. Something as simple as a miss-set stamping machine could be the cause. People have had over a century to muck with the guns. Make them "be" what they want them to "be." So I'd say it's +50% likely that was the gun but it's impossible to get over 90% sure on that.

The every day run of the mill guns are every day run of the mill guns. It's the oddities that are the ones that require "slow speed ahead." Take everything you think you know and chuck it. Then slowly review it for what you see. Chico Marx and his: "who you going to believe, me or your own eyes?"

[M1Riflenut]

Finally made it back to the shop that had the other Krag carbines. This shop has all guns locked in the racks, you can only see the bottom of them as they sit in the racks. Took a number (like the deli counter at the supermarket) and waited a good 30 minutes before my number came up. I got a close look at the "oddball" one and it is an 1899 carbine that has been heavily buffed and reblued, stock does appear to be a cut down rifle stock, 1902 unmarked rear sight and no handguard. The other one was also an 1899, no rear sight or handguard and heavily sanded stock. I think I got the best one the first time I was there. Pics this weekend.