A further "pointed" look at my 1895 Winchester-Lee

[Rick the Librarian]

A gentleman on Facebook had a Winchester/Lee bayonet to sell me for $285 and I bit. I thought you'd like to see some pictures. As you can see, it was manufactured by Remington. Gary Cunningham mentioned that a few W/L bayonets may had been made commercially. The only markings I could find on the bayonet was the manufacturer's name.

Comments?

40278
40279
40280

[5MadFarmers]

Nice bayonet.

I have a hazy memory of poking at the bayonets when I bought my rifle. The one I bought came with the bayonet. Seemed to be three different bayonet variations from what that hazy recall is telling me.

Which is strange as I can understand two but not three.

Initial order was for 10,000 bayonets. They then went back for 200 more. Those could be marked differently as it was a different purchase but not long after the initial order. Presumably when they bought the second batch of rifles they bought bayonets. That could explain the three. Then again it might not. The 10,200 from the first go (plus the extras) were all delivered by January 1897. Order was placed in April of 1896.

Come with a scabbard? Those were made by Ames - not Remington. To a Winchester design.


Gary Cunningham mentioned that a few W/L bayonets may had been made commercially.

Gary generally knows what he's going on about. That said, the backdrop of that really has me curious. "Why?" Surplus market purchasers normally don't have bayonets made. Each gun had a bayonet. So what would be the point and by whom?

After the Krag book was out I ran into some interesting information on those Winchester-Lee rifles. Would have included it but the book was out.

[Rick the Librarian]

No, just the bayonet.

Gary mentions the 10,000 you mentioned plus "another 5,000" in late 1898. The 3rd variation he said was unmarked except for a Navy proof stamp (which is occasionally found on the other two) - Nathan Twining (T in a triangle).

I can only guess on the commercial bayonets but the W/L was sold in small commercial quantities - I suppose for military schools, ceremonial guard units, etc.

[5MadFarmers]

No, just the bayonet.

Gary mentions the 10,000 you mentioned plus "another 5,000" in late 1898. The 3rd variation he said was unmarked except for a Navy proof stamp (which is occasionally found on the other two) - Nathan Twining (T in a triangle).


Makes sense. 10,000 rifles and 10,000 bayonets originally. The extra 200 bayonets were ordered a bit later as a reserve. The second rifle purchase was 5,000 so that many bayonets, thereabouts, follows the pattern.

I'd have to dig mine out but I remember it as being that triangle T thing.


I can only guess on the commercial bayonets but the W/L was sold in small commercial quantities - I suppose for military schools, ceremonial guard units, etc.

That makes perfect sense. Hadn't considered that. It was a "military rifle." Making bayonets for them to sell them to interested military parties makes complete sense.

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2017/navy_belt.jpg

After bayonet it's the belt. Then suspenders and BGI cleaning cord. Not necessarily in that order.

Suspenders have, historically, been a problem for me. Belts find me but suspenders? not so much.

[Rick the Librarian]

Wow ...nice! I thought I was going out of my way to find the bayonet! Would like a sling, but I suppose they a zillion dollars!! :)

[Dan Shapiro]

Good luck on finding a sling. Finally purchased a repro from S&S Firearms. Good price on the bayonet. Mine came with a sheath, so I ended up spending another $100. It's marked on the ricasso "Winchester Repeating Arms Co."


40285

[Rick the Librarian]

Trouble with the sling is I also need a lower butt swivel. Wonder if S&S has one of those?

[Dan Shapiro]

If you purchase the sling from S&S, it comes with a sling swivel.

http://www.ssfirearms.com/proddetail.asp?prod=LN34

[Kragrifle]

Lee bayonets variations

Triangle T-most common
Winchester- probably second
Remington
Triangle W
Unmarked-least common

Same bayonet with different barrel diameter

Winchester 1895 musket
Blake-very rare

[Rick the Librarian]

Dan, I looked at S&S but looked under "Winchester-Lee," which explains why I didn't find it. Hmmmm ... that sling looks interesting, especially with the swivel included.

[Dan Shapiro]

I had only one problem with the sling......the "C" clip wire that attaches to the forward sling swivel. It's too open. Unless the sling is kept tight, it had a tendency to slip off the swivel. So I put the "C" clip in a vise and compressed the clip to where it just snapped over the swivel....no more problems.

[Rick the Librarian]

I'll keep that in mind - thanks! (I went ahead and ordered one). :)

[5MadFarmers]

I'll keep that in mind - thanks! (I went ahead and ordered one). :)

Mind if I hijack your thread and play "Seven Degrees of Separation" for a moment? You have an interest in the Philippines.

Nathan Twining was from a little place named Boscobel. Not real big. There is a prison there but not much else. What they do have is a little A&W restaurant caught in a time-warp. Phones in the booths to call in your order. Nice little place. Reasonably priced.

In the same general area is another little place named Cuba City. Smaller than Boscobel. One street town Cuba City is. Nice little cafe, very inexpensive, and not much else. There is a bar there. The bar was owned and operated by a Marine for the longest time. Said Marine was on Guam when the war ended. Of the many guns I kick myself for not buying was the Arisaka he brought home. It was still in the box he made for it on Guam. I did end up with his uniform. In the pocket was a memorial service thing. One of those little pieces of paper they had at the memorial service for people.

The memorial service was held after the war ended and everybody had made it home. The Marine was from Boscobel. As was his buddy. The buddy had gone into the army and then into airborne. One of the soldiers killed in that big explosion the Japanese set off on Corregidor when it was being retaken. That little memorial service paper had been in that pocket since just after the war.

====


Lee bayonets variations

Triangle T-most common
Winchester- probably second
Remington
Triangle W
Unmarked-least common

Same bayonet with different barrel diameter

Winchester 1895 musket
Blake-very rare


Interesting. I guess if I was wise I'd go look but instead I'm going to just wonder. Triangle T being Twining no doubt. Does that make triangle W Williams? I wonder how many people guess "Winchester" for that but it follows the pattern of the T. George W. Williams. Like Twining he was a Lieutenant Commander about that time assigned to Navy Ordnance.

I guess I could look if it interests me. I'd guess at Williams without any looking.

[butlersrangers]

Eugene Myszkowski, "The Winchester - Lee Rifle", attributes "triangle with W enclosed" to U. S. Navy Inspector Lt. William B. Whitttelsey.

Anthony C. Daum & Charles W. Pate, "U.S. Military Arms Inspector Marks", have W.B.W. (Whittelsey) inspecting rifles purchased by the Navy from Winchester, in April, 1898, to replace rifles destroyed in the N.Y. Navy Yard fire.

[Rick the Librarian]

VERY interesting "hijack". I'm very familiar with that explosion on Corregidor. I find it interesting how many "coincidences" one can run into, also. Yesterday, I received a book in the mail that I had ordered online. It was a "yearbook" of the Washington National Guard in 1939, the year before they were Federalized. Contained in the book was a number of 8x10" photographs taken by the unit's 116th Observation Squadron in the 1930s. One was of the airfield they were based, just outside of Spokane WA (where I grew up) at Felts Field. I spent a lot of time there as a Civil Air Patrol cadet and with my school's aviation club. The other picture was of the squadron's aircraft flying over an uncompleted Grand Coulee Dam, where I taught from 1976-85. The third was of Upper Priest Lake, where I and my family spent several summers. All from a book that the pictures could have easily fallen out or been taken.

If I'm not mistaken, the "naval ordnance officer" Twining was the father of "Marine" Twining, who served on Guadalcanal and other Pacific islands and retired as a colonel or B/G and the other son was "Air Force Twining" who made it well into the general ranks of the Air Force.

[Rick the Librarian]

Eugene Myszkowski, "The Winchester - Lee Rifle", attributes "triangle with W enclosed" to U. S. Navy Inspector Lt. William B. Whitttelsey.

Anthony C. Daum & Charles W. Pate, "U.S. Military Arms Inspector Marks", have W.B.W. (Whittelsey) inspecting rifles purchased by the Navy from Winchester, in April, 1898, to replace rifles destroyed in the N.Y. Navy Yard fire.

Yes, I should have looked into my copy!

[5MadFarmers]

Eugene Myszkowski, "The Winchester - Lee Rifle", attributes "triangle with W enclosed" to U. S. Navy Inspector Lt. William B. Whitttelsey.

Anthony C. Daum & Charles W. Pate, "U.S. Military Arms Inspector Marks", have W.B.W. (Whittelsey) inspecting rifles purchased by the Navy from Winchester, in April, 1898, to replace rifles destroyed in the N.Y. Navy Yard fire.

Makes sense. Navy Register has Whittlesey on inspection duty in Bridgeport. Not far. Also in the Ordnance Bureau.

I have Gene's books. Good books. Wasn't able to poke at them this morning.

[5MadFarmers]

VERY interesting "hijack". I'm very familiar with that explosion on Corregidor.

Ain't that something.
"BOSCOBEL - Services for Pfc. Stephen Ferrel, Boscobel, were held this morning in Immaculate Conception Catholic church" (The Wisconsin State Joural, Madison, WI, Monday, Oct. 18, 1948, p. 3, Col 3-4)

Service was in 1948. That's him.

"A paratrooper, he died Feb. 16, 1945, of wounds received in action in the assault on Corregidor"

Yup. That's definitely him.


I find it interesting how many "coincidences" one can run into

Life is a strange string of predictable coincidences. Bought a pair of trousers off of eBay once to go with my uncle's Ike. Trousers were in Virginia. Received them and noticed the name and service number inside. Knew the guy. Classmate of my uncle.

Went to an auction. Deceased was a TBF pilot. One book had flight manuals - his. In another box were some binders. Nothing inside. Except the person who owned them doodled inside them. Cover had a high school so school binders. Inside, those doodles, were names and addresses. Her two brothers were away in the military. One was the TBF pilot. Walked over to the gun table a bit later. Old guy was watching them. "Do you know anything about the history of these guns?" I asked them. "Yes, they were my brothers." "So you're the ParaMarine then?" "How did you know that?" With time travel I could write him as he moved from station to station.


If I'm not mistaken, the "naval ordnance officer" Twining was the father of "Marine" Twining, who served on Guadalcanal and other Pacific islands and retired as a colonel or B/G and the other son was "Air Force Twining" who made it well into the general ranks of the Air Force.

Navy Twining was the uncle of the USAF and USMC Twinings. They were from Monroe. Nice Swiss Colony cheese outlet there.

Ok, every place I remember by a food reference. I go to auctions. Wife's price in going is she gets lunch.

12th Commandant of the USMC, George Barnett, was also from Boscobel. Strange they produced so many given the population is 3K more or less.

I'll give you a strange coincidence. That prison in Boscobel. Designed and built as a supermax. One day, one specific day, I was the most feared man in that prison. :)

[Dan Shapiro]

Speaking of coincidences:

Met my future wife while working my way through college. After things got serious, I met her parents. Later mentioned to my folks that her Dad was also a former Marine, and mentioned his name. My Dad goes "WHO?" I repeat the name and he says 'Well I'll be a SOB!.....He was my platoon Sgt. at Camp Pendleton in 1949. He kicked me in the ass one day, said I was moving too slow while setting up the 81mm mortar!"

Small world.

[5MadFarmers]

Apologies Rick, we've seemed to thoroughly hijacked your topic with small world stories.

Growing up there were four families in my neighborhood with kids about my age. Marty was my age while his sister Patty was a year older. When she was a Senior I was a Junior but had her in English class. At the end of the year we said our goodbyes not expecting to see each other again as she was moving out of town. A couple of years later I joined the line at my credit union in Florida. Tapped the shoulder of the girl standing in front of me. "Hello Patty." A couple of years later I was in Bayeux France. Local real estate place had a case on the side of their building with listings inside. Glass front. Very reflective glass. Saw a couple come up behind me and stand, slightly behind and one to each side, and start looking at the listings. Didn't even turn around. "Hello Patty." The Florida thing was odd. The France thing was beyond odd.

In high school I was at the county fair. Got off a ride and saw the girl standing there. "Hello Kathy." A couple of years later I was at Disneyworld. Saw this girl get off of a ride. "Hello Kathy." A few years later I was in a department store in Champaign Illinois buying a microwave oven. Saw this girl coming towards me. "Hello Kathy." Three decades later I was in Las Vegas. Had tickets to a show. Sat down and looked at the girl in the next seat. "Hello Kathy." Well, I guess that's not really a small world story. She is my wife after all. That Patty thing though - that was weird.

[5MadFarmers]

Anthony C. Daum & Charles W. Pate, "U.S. Military Arms Inspector Marks", have W.B.W. (Whittelsey) inspecting rifles purchased by the Navy from Winchester, in April, 1898, to replace rifles destroyed in the N.Y. Navy Yard fire.

Yes, I'm aware of Tony's work. When he passed it was turned over to Mr. Pate to finish. Mr. Hosmer is represented and uncredited.

Sharing emails is a no no. Unless one party is no longer alive perhaps.

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2017/daum.png

Inspector bingo is an interesting game.

Adams, George H.
Adams, Halsey H.
Adams, J. Sumner
Adams, James H.
Adams, John H.
Aiken, Manley A.
Alden, Adin
Alden, James
Alexander, Henry
Alexander, Philip B.

Some of the fine gentlemen that made your Krag. If it's an early one.

Abell, Anthony
Alexander, Charles L.
Alexander, Henry
Ainsworth, George J.
Alberts, Orven
Alden, Joel M.
Adams, Willard O.
Adams, George H.
Adams, Halsey H.
Adams, J. Sumner
Adams, John H.

Some of the fine gentlemen that made your Krag. If it's a later one.

Abbott, Lester M.
Adams, Charles
Adams, Halsey H.
Adams, John
Adams, John H.
Adams, J. Sumner
Adams, Leonard H.
Adams, William
Addison, William
Adriance, Edward E.
Adriance, Herbert K.

Some of the fine gentlemen that made your M-1903. Assuming WW1.

Abair, Edward L.
Abare, John
Abbe, Earl H.
Abendroth, Henry J.
Abrahamson, Arthur F.
Adam, John
Adamczyk, Wanda Mrs
Adams, George B.
Adams, Herbert J.
Adams, Joseph D. Jr.
Adriance, Earl E.

Some of the fine people that made your M1 rifle. Assuming it's an early WW2 SA rifle.

Abbot, Harry C.
Ackerly, Calvin
Adam, Walter G.
Adams, J.Sumner
Ahearn, Charles J.
Ainslie, Percy
Albert, B.C.
Alexander, Everett
Alvord, Edward B.
Ammonsen, John F.
Anderson, Andrew F.

Some of the fine people who inspected your ordnance gear in WW1. Guns, gun parts, holsters, scabbards, etc. Find the company. Find the inspector for that location. Play bingo.

1918 was a mighty fine year. Carr was being paid $5 per day. Ole' J. Sumner was at $4.80. Carroll (TCC on RIA stuff) was making $6.40. Chambers at Eddystone was paid a yearly salary instead. William Dinsmoor up in Boston was pulling in $3K per year. That's good money.

"Earl house." Where Mssrs Thompson and Hobbs boarded as they inspected the guns made in Providence in 1864.

"Ellis, Goffe, Griffith." Among the many wonderful inspectors in New Haven in 1864.

Yes, I know how Inspector Bingo is played.

[5MadFarmers]

Sorry for the hijack Rick but I'm going to finish that.

There is an arm, circa 1861-1865 war, with a cartouche. Every reference lists the same person for that cartouche. Which is a problem.
Three decades later there was a court case. The contract inspectors who had been at that factory testified. They handily provided the complete names of all the inspectors that had been there.
One of those listed was a direct hit for the initials on that cartouche.
It wasn't the man listed in the standard references.
Who wasn't listed by them as having been there.
I was given a free lesson in inspector bingo.

When I put out the "people" volume it'll have the games pieces for people to play bingo. I suspect I'm not going to play bingo myself - just let others do it.

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2017/inspectors.png

Entire workforce. Year after year after year. With jobs and such. One sheet per last name letter. Follow them through their working career.

That, by the way, was a lot of work. There's an understatement. Other places were done differently. Format needs to fit data.

Keeps me amused.

Butlerdude? You've stated a few times that Porter was the last master armorer at SA.

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2017/sa_ma.png

In that list is the last Master Armorer at Springfield Armory. Note that Porter isn't in the list.

It's called Bingo.

Except on that one I didn't have to play bingo. Page 101 in the good book. On page 101 it looks so effortless. Sometimes there is quite a bit behind that effortlessness.

[5MadFarmers]

Sorry Rick, one more.

Anthony Daum. I'm somewhat aware of the amount of work Tony put into that work. That cannot be diminished. It was an incredible amount of work. Sadly he passed on before finishing it. I noticed when his collection hit the block and it was a nice collection. So R.I.P. Tony. I'm sure he was very aware of the number of people that would benefit from his work. People buying ancient guns with barely readable cartouches could in fact not have to guess at what the initials were.

I understand that. I've encountered sellers frequently claiming there is very faded writing on an item and, as it's so faded, it's not worth including a picture. What they're failing to grasp is there are people who have seen those markings so many times that they can tell you what it is. Like a faded JSA right? Tony's work will be invaluable in that.

Inspector Bingo is a fun game. Tony enjoyed it. He also dug and didn't just play bingo. We lost a valuable researcher in Mr. Daum.

====

Sorry for the hijacks Rick. Here, some guys with gloves made in Germany. Forgot where that came from.

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2017/german_gloves.jpg

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2017/guns.jpg

From same place. Book or SA's photo collection. Forget which.

[Dick Hosmer]

In addition to being a very good researcher, Tony was fun to talk to, a really nice guy. He was kind enough to vet the Marksman's Rifle chapter in my upcoming book - Tony had probably forgotten more about that model than most people ever knew. I was flattered that he changed very little, but certainly fleshed out the narrative. I miss him.

[Rick the Librarian]

No apologies necessary, 5Mad, I've enjoyed reading them, especially Dan's - now THAT was interesting! And for you to run into your classmate!!In FRANCE!! I've had a few of those happen to me, although I admit both of you have me beat!! :)

[Rick the Librarian]

...and thanks, gentlemen for the "rabbit trail" on inspectors! I find, I often learn more from rabbit trails than from the original discussion of the topic!

However, back to the "matter at hand". I did what I should have done and read the section in Myszkowski's book on bayonets. One interesting fact is that the early bayonets were numbered and were supposed to be numbered to the rifles. I wonder what bureaucrat came up with that??

He mentioned that some later bayonets made by Remington had inspection stamps, some had serial numbers and some had both (in addition, of course, to the "Remington" stamp in the fuller). I found out exactly where to look for the serial on my bayonet (the back of the pommel) and took a look - sure enough there was a serial number - 18794 (see photo), indicating that this was a later bayonet. The author mentions that some bayonets with a serial number over 15,000 have appeared. It appears this bayonet was one of the last group manufactured by Remington, considerably after April, 1898.

It is interesting to me that, while not an obvious "match" to my rifle, it appears to have been manufactured in the same general time period (My rifle's serial number is 19099)

40287

[butlersrangers]

RTL - Thanks for sharing details and pictures of your very nice Winchester - Lee rifle and Remington made W-L bayonet.

Your contributions are always interesting, gentlemanly, and make for an interesting read and discussion.

[Rick the Librarian]

My pleasure ...a Navy Winchester Lee was a dream of mine doing back a number of years. A friend sold it to me at a very good price. I'll never shoot it, but a fascinating rifle to look at the study.

[Dan Shapiro]

I'll never shoot it

Good idea, considering no one makes the ammo anymore. Interesting article about the safety of the Win-Lee Navy, and modifying 30-40 Krag cartridge cases.

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/winchester-lee-navy-safety/

[5MadFarmers]

One interesting fact is that the early bayonets were numbered and were supposed to be numbered to the rifles.

Makes sense.


I found out exactly where to look for the serial on my bayonet (the back of the pommel) and took a look - sure enough there was a serial number - 18794 (see photo)

That did get me curious. Looked for my bayonet. Couldn't find it. Found my tape dispenser though. I need to lose something else and look for it to find the bayonet. I have a second Winchester-Lee, incomplete, but can't find that either. I was going to see what the serial was.

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2017/lee_family.jpg

Middle gun is missing some pieces. If it starts bugging me I'd be more inclined to buy another gun. Cheaper than what people get for parts.

Navy, Navy, Army, "Military", Prototype for "Military". Unless I confused the early army and navy but I don't think I did as the army is the harder to find and that one is missing pieces.

Winchester-Lee is low 3K range with Twining's mark.
Remington-Lee .30 is Michigan range.

[11mm]

These were purported to be original drawings of the Navy Lee4029040291

I got them as sort of gift from the dealer from whom I bought my Lee.

These are what we called reproducibles where I used to work, though they are not the plastic we used to use, of course.

They are in such good shape that I doubt they are originals. One is in two colors of "ink" though.

The nomenclature is really interesting, as that must have been what Winchester called the 1895 rifle. "Lee Rifle US Navy Small Arm"

[butlersrangers]

Love those Lees, especially the model 1899, 'Michigan contract' one.

(Photos - #1 & 2 - Michigan Naval Militia with Navy Remington-Lee rifles, Detroit - Campus Martius, Memorial Day 1895.

#3 & #4 - Michigan State Troops at Manistee, Michigan, for annual training in 1900. My great uncle is in photo. NCOs have Krag equipment).


40292402954029340294

[Rick the Librarian]

Beautiful collection, 5Mad! According to the book, some bayonets had just the Manufacturer's stamp, some had just the serial number, some had the ordnance proof stamp and some had a combination of all or none! I never even though to look for a serial number until I read the book. I'm "conditioned" to look for markings just on the blade and crosspiece!

I've heard of people fashioning cartridges for Winchester-Lees from various other cartridges, but just "petting the rifle (and now bayonet) is good enough for me. :)

[5MadFarmers]

The nomenclature is really interesting, as that must have been what Winchester called the 1895 rifle. "Lee Rifle US Navy Small Arm"

Very interesting. Perhaps due to the way the navy program ran. They picked a caliber and then asked Winchester and P&W if it was viable from what I recall. Ergo Winchester was sucked in.


Love those Lees, especially the model 1899, 'Michigan contract' one.

"Model 1899" is a spurious designation. Yes, I know Gene and Marcot use it. It's still spurious. That the last patent on them is from the 1880s, that the serial numbers on the Michigan guns are over 100K, that the army reviewed them in 1898, and that they are listed in magazines for sale in 1897 and earlier kind of buries that term. It's spurious. They're just the "Remington-Lee Magazine Rifle." More specifically, the "Remington-Lee Military Rifle." Which distinguishes from the sporting one. Remington's terms.


NCOs have Krag equipment.

Whereas Michigan paid for the Remington-Lee rifles, they still received equipment via the "arming and equipping the militia" program. Thus they were sent Krag rifles.

Some things are purchased on "belief" and some not so much. Do you believe that the Navy marked all their rifles the same? Those on the USS Kearsarge received "USS Kearsarge" paint and thus all the rest did? Were they that consistent or was there inconsistency? Some believe in that rigid consistency. Some do not. In four days and 19 hours two rifles will be going in an auction at Rock Island Auctions. Lot 210. The first of the two is a Remington-Lee in the correct range for the Michigan buy. Doesn't appear to have the butt stock number most seem to have. Which means it'll go cheaper. Those that insist on that number being present won't be that interested. Only those that even notice it will be interested. Comes with a pedestrian trapdoor. That will be a good lot. A Remington-Lee in the Michigan range. Cheap. Whether that's interesting or not depends on the person. Myself? I have one. If I didn't I'd probably buy that one.


Beautiful collection, 5Mad! According to the book, some bayonets had just the Manufacturer's stamp, some had just the serial number, some had the ordnance proof stamp and some had a combination of all or none! I never even though to look for a serial number until I read the book. I'm "conditioned" to look for markings just on the blade and crosspiece!

Thanks. In theory, during WW2, issue of a meat can, knife, fork, and spoon enabled soldiers to have mess gear in the field. In practice they tossed everything but the spoon. In theory the Blish locking system was needed by the Thompson SMG. In practice it didn't really do anything.

In theory issue of a rifle and bayonet with the same number would preclude theft of bayonets and rifles. Lost your bayonet? Steal somebody else's. In practice it's not harder to write two numbers on an issue sheet.
In theory a rifle made to industrial standards by one company, and bayonets made to industrial standards by another company, should result in not all bayonets fitting all rifles. "Stamp them." That combination fits. In practice you'd likely have to look long and hard to find a pair which doesn't match up. In theory a mandrel could be used to widen the bayonet. In practice that likely set a record for the tool in an armorer's tool chest least used.

So, no, I guess I'm not surprised that somebody came up with the idea of numbering them. That's the kind of theory that troops specialize in ignoring.

[Rick the Librarian]

Along the same line, something I've always wondered had the Pedersen Device been used in combat (yes, another rabbit trail!). With a pouch for the PD, another pouch for the rifle bolt and yet another for the PD magazines, I wonder how long it would have been before at least one (and maybe more than one!) was "accidentally lost". :)

[5MadFarmers]

Along the same line, something I've always wondered had the Pedersen Device been used in combat (yes, another rabbit trail!). With a pouch for the PD, another pouch for the rifle bolt and yet another for the PD magazines, I wonder how long it would have been before at least one (and maybe more than one!) was "accidentally lost". :)

Oiler in butt. Little thong with a string cord. Attach brush, pull through. Cord breaks with brush half-way up barrel. "How do I get this out?" "Use a sectional cleaning rod." "If I had a sectional cleaning rod why would I be using this stupid gimpy thong?" Aw, that stupid gimpy thong is for use when you're isolated and the sectional rod isn't available. Which is a fine time for that cord to break. If I was out in the middle of nowhere with the rifle and worried about cleaning the barrel, having that thong but no real rod, I'd piss down the barrel and call it a day. "Handle a pissy rifle?" A pissy rifle is better than a clean rifle with a brush half-way down the barrel.

Items developed by the gimmick brigade. Their biggest desire in life is to design stuff for Inspector Gadget or James Bond. Instead they discover that field doesn't exist and design kitchen stuff. A device that half and orange is placed on and pressed to extract the juice. Yeah, I'd find myself using that daily....

The M17 gas mask and the canteen for it mated up. M17A1 or M17A2 anyway. Ok, time to recall. M17 was plain. M17A1 permitted filter changes on the fly without removing the mask. M17A2 added the canteen thing. From what I remember. The mother of all military gimmicks. The gas mask/canteen connection system. How do you clean the connections of toxins before plugging them together? Um, don't know. If I reached the point where I was going to be wearing the mask so long that I absolutely needed a drink I'd swab and IV needle and poke it through the clothing. Why? Because I'd die of frustration trying to connect that stupid canteen to the stupid mask with gloves on.

[Dan Shapiro]

Oh! Another gadget! Or was it rabbit?

In the late 60's while in the army, they encouraged a program where folks who actually did the work would make suggestions that would reduce cost and increase efficiency. There actually were a couple good one's made. Ergo, it came down from above that the suggestions would now be mandatory....and each work unit would submit at least one suggestion per month.

Break away for a moment to listen to what I once heard one officer tell another: 'The enlisted man is generally amoral, devious, lazy and bears watching at all times.'

Two of the suggestions made after the mandatory order came down:
1) Plastic extensions for pencils. You can only sharpen a pencil so many times, then can no longer grasp it. The extension would allow full use of the pencil.
2) Openings on both ends of the duffel bag (aka sea bag). Because what you want or need is always on the bottom.

For some reason those suggestions were not implemented. After a couple more months, the program "disappeared". :evil6:

[Kaliman]

Rick, you seem to have come into a Lee-Navy recently as have I. Mine is a tad earlier though, S/N 205

[Rick the Librarian]

Yep, mine couldn't be any farther away - 19,909! :)

[Dan Shapiro]

7730 here.

[Kragrifle]

With a SN that high that should be a civilian musket.

[Rick the Librarian]

According to Eugene M., most of the civilian Lees were interspersed in the 10,000-15,000 range. Those from 15,000 to 20,000 were the second contract of rifles to the Navy and Marines.

[jon_norstog]

Here's some comments etc. regarding the Lee Navy rifle and the fights it was prominently used in. From the Spanish-American War website:

http://www.spanamwar.com/lee.htm

A Marine's letter home after the landing at Guantanamo

http://www.spanamwar.com/wisconsinmarine.htm

Lt. Baptiste surrendered in part because he and his men thought the Marines had machine guns



http://www.spanamwar.com/leearticle.htm

Stephen Crane (Red Badge of Courage) was a war correspondent with the Marines. Here's his dispatch from the fight at Cuzco Wells

http://www.spanamwar.com/cranequickaccount.htm


jn

[Dan Shapiro]

Thanks for the links. Interesting!

[5MadFarmers]

Pitiful. Just pitiful.

"OSHKOSH BOY IN CUBA - EXCITING EPISTLE RECEIVED FROM OSHKOSH SOLDIER IN BATTLE"

The Shakey's was at least inexpensive. While there is a Golden Corral there it's not inexpensive. I blame the air show. I never stop to eat in Oshkosh.


In some cases the Cubans, who have never seen the rifle before, lost the blocks entirely and then threw the arms away, disgusted with them. It was noticible that the Cubans reported a much larger percentage of disabled pieces than the marines.

I'll be honest - that disqualifies the gun from military service as it stood. It had some very good points but a gun in military service shouldn't be a "but" gun.

"The M16 works fine but it does require proper cleaning to function."

That's a but. There should be no buts. It should work regardless.

The Navy Lee performed admirably in the hands of the Marines.


They found that many of the complaints were groundless, the men, who in the heat of action, having neglected to take the proper measures to work the arm.

Pull trigger, bang. The more that doesn't happen for any reason the more work which should be done to make that so.

Conversely most new weapons have teething problems that need to be worked out. That one didn't get the chance. Gas trap M1 anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

M16? "Enough is enough, put a piston in the stupid thing."

[Dan Shapiro]

5M - Amen! But then, MacNamara's "wiz-kids", being Democrats, knew EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING. Just ask 'em!

First 4 months in Vietnam, carried an M-14. Worked every time. Sun, rain, mud. It worked. Then we were ordered to turn them in for M-16's. During familiarization was told 'this weapon is self-cleaning'. (No way, I'm thinking). Go out to the bunker line to fire off two magazines and get sight dope. First round jams. Not a happy camper.

[5MadFarmers]

During familiarization was told 'this weapon is self-cleaning'. (No way, I'm thinking).

Sad really.

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2017/colt1.png

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2017/colt2.png

Can't blame Colt. Was the army aware of that? "I got that at Rock Island Arsenal."

Did Stoner abandon that direct impingement?

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2017/colt3.png

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2017/colt4.png

"I'm of the opinion that the answer is yes."

Was the army aware he was no longer a believer?

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2017/colt5.png

I'm going with "yes."

===========

Lee and his straight pull was on the right track. Just needed a gas system. With a piston.

[Kragrifle]

Sorry. You are correct. Second contract is the higher range SNs.

[5MadFarmers]

Some things are purchased on "belief" and some not so much. Do you believe that the Navy marked all their rifles the same? Those on the USS Kearsarge received "USS Kearsarge" paint and thus all the rest did? Were they that consistent or was there inconsistency? Some believe in that rigid consistency. Some do not. In four days and 19 hours two rifles will be going in an auction at Rock Island Auctions. Lot 210. The first of the two is a Remington-Lee in the correct range for the Michigan buy. Doesn't appear to have the butt stock number most seem to have. Which means it'll go cheaper. Those that insist on that number being present won't be that interested. Only those that even notice it will be interested. Comes with a pedestrian trapdoor. That will be a good lot. A Remington-Lee in the Michigan range. Cheap. Whether that's interesting or not depends on the person. Myself? I have one. If I didn't I'd probably buy that one.



http://5madfarmers.com/images_2017/remington.png

[rayg]

Speaking of the Win Lee slings, I was lucky and found an original sling some years ago that a gun shop was selling one line that they had taken off of a W-L they had taken in trade. lucky for me, they had not done enough research to determine the real going value of one however they did know enough it was scarce as they set a $600 price on it. The sling had the Winchester star proof on it but no patent marks yet. At the time two W-L slings had been sold by a dealer for about $2100-2200 each.
It gets better as not long after, I had posted a Japanese sling F/S on line and a fellow asked if I was willing to trade it for a sling he had. Turns out his sling was a later made W-L sling complete with the patent stamp on the buckle. Probably made for the Russian 95 lever rifle contact and not quite the quality as the earlier one. These slings fall through the cracks as they could be mistaken for Mauser or other non US slings. I've been holding on to it in case I found a decent 95 Win but time has passed me by and I am now in the process of disposing most of my collection. I know it will be of interest to some one with a 95 Win as I can't recall ever personally seeing one with an original sling on it as I suppose most were used up in Russia.
I'd suggest to take a good look at the photos of both so you know what they look like just in case you run across one. The first photo and the last two photos are of the earlier sling. One difference between the two is the early sling has a tapered end where as the later one does not and the stitching is of better quality. Ray

4036940370403714037240373

[Kragrifle]

I was lucky enough to acquire a nice Lee sling recently. Mine has the taper while a friend's is straight. Saw a sling on a high finish WL that had a pebbled texture to the surface. Owner swore it was authentic. ?

[Kragrifle]

Missing the difference in the 95 and WL sling?

[rayg]

The later sling with the patent stamp on buckle was probably the one mfg in conjuction with the 95 Win lever rifle contract as generly the patent wasn't approved and stamped on the buckle until later. But of course that sling would be proper for the later WL rifles made at the same time the 95 lever rifles were and could be used for any WL rifle, Ray

[CJCulpeper]

Gee whiz. I'm away for a few months and everybody starts talking about Win Lees.

I am Shocked!

;)

[Dan Shapiro]

Too add to your shock, we were also discussing Remington-Lee's..................:headbang:

[CJCulpeper]

I'm double shocked!!

[jon_norstog]

Why we are talking about Lee rifles is because James Paris Lee was America's other John Browning. he was a genius. His designs were bold - and most of them had a fatal flaw as battle rifles. It ws the British who took his design, fixed a few things and used it in at least three wars as their main battle rifle. Some say the Lee-Enfield was the best battle rifle ever made. I'm not one of them, but I would put it in the top 5.

You can't talk about turn-of-the-last-century military firearms without talking about Lee's designs.

jn

[Dan Shapiro]

Another innovator that barely gets recognition is John H. Hall. Would be great to be able to afford one of his 1819 flintlocks or even the later percussion model.

40825

[cowtownscout]

Another innovator that barely gets recognition is John H. Hall. Would be great to be able to afford one of his 1819 flintlocks or even the later percussion model.

40825

Hey Dan
I've got four of the Hall arms I can post photos of. Since you brought them up what forum would be the best place to start a thread with those photos?
Scout

[Dan Shapiro]

Scout:
Probably "Black Powder".

[cowtownscout]

Scout:
Probably "Black Powder".

Ok I'll post back here when I've started the other thread with the Hall photos.

[cowtownscout]

OK the thread is now posted in the Black Powder forum with photos of the four John Hall arms currently in my care. Hope you enjoy the history and photos.
Scout