...and as long as we're discussing W/L rifles ...

[Rick the Librarian]

...Here's a "stock" question for you: I was perusing Eugene M's book on the rifle and he mentioned that Second Contract Winchester/Lees had grasping groove stocks. Mine is 19099 but has a "smooth" stock. Maybe a replacement at some time?

TIA

40296

[Kragrifle]

No. Original stocks on both contracts were sans grasping grooves. The GG stocks all appear to be on rebuilt/repaired rifles. There are actually two lengths of grooves. While I have seen several of the shorter groove stocks, the only long groove stock I have seen is on a butchered stick I picked up years ago.

I did a Lee Navy display several years ago at Kansas City. Myszkowski sold his collection after writing the book and as I recall now lives in Florida. I recall we discussed this stock topic (by email or phone) and he now agrees that the GG stocks are replacements in all likelihood as they are rarely seen.

BTW, I would love to find a long groove Lee Navy if ever anyone has one for sale!

[Rick the Librarian]

I appreciate your feedback on that. I got the idea from Eugene's book that they were used on later production models. Are you sure he is still alive?

[Kragrifle]

No. However, now that you mentioned it I just sent him an email. It has been several years since I last contacted him and I am now even more aware as we lose our seasoned experts that time is fleeting!

[Rick the Librarian]

I think I saw an obituary (I did a goggle search) but if it was someone else and you do hear back, let me know. Pretty uncommon name to say the least! :)

[Dick Hosmer]

I had a sporter (factory lettered) at one time which had the military butt as opposed to the shotgun style. It had grasping grooves. Always wondered which configuration was the scarcer.

Sadly, it (and my 1899 Remington-Lee sporter in .236) were sold when I had the chance to acquire my Sharps-sighted Long Range Rifle 162036, but, you cannot keep everything.

Gene said that the barrel marking (".236") ahead of the stock tip on the R-L was "uncommon", since most were marked "6mm". Always wondered if it was chambered for the .236 Remington, a slightly fatter and shorter cartridge than the Navy rounds, but never got around to making a chamber cast.

Seem to remember seeing an obit for Gene, also.

[Dick Hosmer]

Since we are discussing off-beat arms of the era, anyone up for Winchester Hotchkisses?

[Fred]

Every type in your collection or from that era and discussed within your excellent book is of utmost importance and interest Dick. Yes, I'm up for it!

[Kragrifle]

Hotchkiss, anyone? Fire away!

[Rick the Librarian]

Sure, why not??

[cowtownscout]

I've got a bunch of Navy Blackpowder cartridge bolt guns I can post photos of. If there's interest I'll start that separate thread this coming weekend. Did not really know which forum would be appropriate. I've already posted photos of my sniper rifles over in that area.
Scout

[Dick Hosmer]

Go for it!

[Kragrifle]

No answer to my email, sadly. Checking back I did that Lee Navy display in July 2013 in Kansas City.

[Kragrifle]

News flash! Just heard from Gene, alive and well!

[Dick Hosmer]

Great news!

[Rick the Librarian]

News flash! Just heard from Gene, alive and well!

Kragrifle - PM sent.

[cowtownscout]

Go for it!

Well I started the Thread with the first of 6 rifles but it has not appeared yet, evidently it is waiting approval before it will show up. Once it does I will add photos of the other 5 rifles. The rifles are Winchester Hotchkiss 1st model and 2nd model, Remington Keene, Remington Lee 1879 1st contract and 2nd purchase, and finally the Remington Lee 1885.
Scout

[Dick Hosmer]

Will try and take a picture of my Hotchkiss grouping (three 1st Models and two 2nd Models) this weekend. I was not aware that photos were vetted?

[5MadFarmers]

Since we are discussing off-beat arms of the era, anyone up for Winchester Hotchkisses?


http://5madfarmers.com/images_2017/hotchkiss.png

[Dick Hosmer]

That's disturbingly cheap, unless it had issues. The martial Hotchkisses are not common, at all.

[5MadFarmers]

That's disturbingly cheap, unless it had issues. The martial Hotchkisses are not common, at all.


.45-70 caliber, 24" barrel, S/N 12706. Barrel U.S. marked with a VP over an eagle head. Winchester markings, address and patent dates on the receiver, along with HN inspector markings on the receiver, bolt arm and bolt. Walnut stock with saddle ring and sling swivels.

Condition:

Much of the original blue finish remains on most parts, fading to a plum in small areas. The bore and action are excellent. There is an old repair at the wrist of the stock on the left side, and a crack extending from the nose cap to the first sling swivel.

Keeping my fingers crossed that the price pattern for the last couple of weeks continues. If so I'll get a gun.

[Rick the Librarian]

I think just the lack of knowledge (and yes, I have to say it!) and interest contributed to the relatively low price on that rifle. Good luck!

[Dick Hosmer]

I think just the lack of knowledge (and yes, I have to say it!) and interest contributed to the relatively low price on that rifle. Good luck!

I hope that is all it is. You raise a good point - having very few of something can cut both ways; hard to generate a lot of interest in something that doesn't circulate. There are trapdoors under every bush, and anyone who wants one can have one, in their choice of condition, often model, within days - even hours - if they so desire. Even the commercial Hotchkiss arms, made entirely by Winchester, are few and far between, but, it is an important arm, being among the very first (if not the first) US-designed/produced bolt-action high-power rifles made in any real quantity, just nosing out the Remington-Lee.

The two Navy rifles are the most common, followed by the carbines, while the Army rifle (the first version to be produced) is basically unobtainable today. Number 101, which I have owned for many years, is one of the two fully-assembed "sample" rifles put together at Winchester and shipped to SA with 498 sets of parts (sole shipment of that model) for final assembly at the Armory. The other, #162, is in the SA museum.

[Dan Shapiro]

I find the late 1800's fascinating, the transition from the venerable Trapdoor to the 'newfangled' bolt action, magazine rifle and smokeless powder.
With that in mind, any help would be appreciated. There are two Remington-lee's on Gunbroker right now. Which is most representative of what the
troops would have been using?

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/631713513

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/630925384

[5MadFarmers]

I hope that is all it is. You raise a good point - having very few of something can cut both ways; hard to generate a lot of interest in something that doesn't circulate.

Not main-line guns. There are multiple main-lines and it's not really on any of them.
"One of each." M1 rifle and carbine. M-1903 and M-1917. Krag. Even carbine and a rifle. Trapdoor, rifle and carbine. The Whitman Sampler of U.S. Military. Hotchkiss won't be in the line.
"I like these." M-1911s. Collect mainly them. "Lee Military." Collect mainly them. "Mauser Military." People do that. A Hotchkiss collection would be rather small.
"Obscure guns the U.S. Military tried but never adopted." I've got to believe that's a small group indeed. If any.
"Nothing but U.S. Military Carbines." Somebody with a house with 6' ceilings perhaps. Very short safe.


Hotchkiss, like the Remington .30 Military, isn't in the main line. Thus only those having worked their way to over 100+ guns are going to be interested. Much reduced crowd.


Even the commercial Hotchkiss arms, made entirely by Winchester, are few and far between, but, it is an important arm, being among the very first (if not the first) US-designed/produced bolt-action high-power rifles made in any real quantity, just nosing out the Remington-Lee.

"Magazine bolt action." Else Ward-Burton enters the fray.

I don't know that the Hotchkiss qualifies as "U.S. Designed" though. He had moved to France. The rifle was sketched out in the margin of a French newspaper. Designed for the European arms market. So designed by "an American" but really a French design. He never did take up French citizenship though so maybe that qualifies.


I think just the lack of knowledge (and yes, I have to say it!) and interest contributed to the relatively low price on that rifle. Good luck!

Noooo! You're going to jinx me. The gun I'm after is main-line!

Crosses toes just in case. Meh, if I steal it I steal it. If not I won't sweat it.

[Dick Hosmer]

Dan,

I would choose the second one, since it retains the original rear sight - that version of the M1879 "buckhorn" model has a taller base (requiring special longer screws) and is marked "R-L" on the left side of the base. The M1884 Buffington sight is questionable on a Rem-Lee; I cannot say that none were officially retrofitted during service, since hole spacing is identical, but it cannot be "as-made".

The arms appear to be in fairly similar condition, but the less-expensive (as of now) and more original one gets that nod as well. Not stated by either seller is that their cleaning rod is missing. That should not be a huge problem, since rods with the proper head (at least) for appearance sake are common, even if you had to search a bit to find THE exact rod of proper length, which would then screw in.

[Dick Hosmer]

Joe, you are right (as almost always). I considered mentioning "magazine" but figured that "real quantity" (50 some odd thousand, IIRC - and I don't always - vs. 1300) covered that base. Otherwise, I agree.

[5MadFarmers]

Joe, you are right (as almost always). I considered mentioning "magazine" but figured that "real quantity" (50 some odd thousand, IIRC - and I don't always - vs. 1300) covered that base. Otherwise, I agree.

No, it was interesting. Made me poke at them a bit. The Chinese of all people. Another piece to a very weird puzzle.

Oliver Winchester was a very interesting person. More interesting by the year. When looking at the second half of the 19th century, regards guns, Oliver Winchester and Samuel Norris are the two interesting ones. Cut from the same cloth as Jay Gould.

[Dan Shapiro]

Thanks Dick!

[5MadFarmers]

Noooo! You're going to jinx me. The gun I'm after is main-line!

Crosses toes just in case. Meh, if I steal it I steal it. If not I won't sweat it.

http://5madfarmers.com/images_2017/lost.png

Lays down on carpet and pounds fists. Waaaaah.

Thanks Rick. Ya jinxed me!

Either that or my low-ball bid was simply too low-ball but let's ignore that.


serial #349141, 30-40 Krag, 22" barrel with a very good bore that shows scattered light pitting.

Third block.


The metal surfaces have been cleaned to an armory bright type finish with scattered areas turning a gray patina and some scattered oxidation staining.

Either that or the blueing wore off and it didn't get an arsenal redo.


The walnut stock rates near very good with an older oil finish, two 1 1/2" cracks at front of handguard, an 1 1/2" crack at front right of stock, a thin 1/3" crack at both the upper tang and in front of buttplate, a couple scattered minor abrasions, scattered dings, scratches and handling marks.

Stock matches metal then.


The stock has a strong 1901 dated inspector's cartouche,

Third block. Sounds unsanded.


a strong circle "P" firing proof, "R. RUSHFORD" is carved into the right side of butt, the letters "R.R." on the underside and "SQ6-2" also on the underside.

Whatever.


The carbine is properly marked "1899", it has the correct 1901 style carbine sight but the handguard lacks the hump seen on 1899 handguards

Which is what the 3rd block was as made. That coupled with that strong cartouche is interesting. Very interesting.


and the cocking piece is different than those commonly seen on 1899 carbines.

Headless would be wrong. That's called muddy the waters with nonsense. Not that it's a bad thing if it discourages other bidders....


This carbine includes an oiler, a three-piece cleaning rod and a note which states that the carbine was purchased from the NRA in 1932.

I have a note that I bought my wife from her dad for $50 but she has challenged the veracity of the deed. Unsuccessfully I might add.


A good candidate for restoration. (208077-2) {C&R}

Noooo! That might be one of the very few that's as made!

Waaaaaaah.


Thanks Rick! Walks away after blaming Rick instead of his own stupidly low bid.

Maybe I shouldn't have been quite so frugal today.

[rayg]

Here's a rare item I have that goes with the R-L rifles discussed here. A R-L cartridge belt that holds four 45/70 magazines and loose cartridges. The Khaki canvas mills belt has four pockets for magazines and 30 loops for cartridges. The Khaki color was used for Navy issue and blue for Army I have read. The brass end keepers have an 1889 patent date. The belt contains four Remington Lee 45/70 five shot magazines. One of the Magazines has patent dates on it. The belt is in excellent to almost minty condition including the leather closing straps on the Magazine pockets. There is a one small stain on the back of the belt. The belt is made for the 1879/82/85 model Remington Lee Navy rifles. There is an ad by military contractors Hartley & Graham in an 1890 issue of the Army Navy Journal that shows this belt with an 1885 rifle. Ray

4035240353403544035540356

P.S. Sadly in regard to the belt, I have been selling off most of my collection because of age, and the R-L rifle has been sold, so when I return to Florida in the fall I'm afriaid I will have to let it go also. Ray

[sdkrag]

Too cool!

[cowtownscout]

Well I tried again and this time the Thread with photos of my US Navy Rifles worked. Hope you enjoy the photos.
Scout