1904 Spandau GEW 98

[John Ed]

Need Direction on this rifle.
A young man at my church brought it by for me to look at. His Dad is in the home repair business and someone gave it to him.
Surface rust on most of it with some pitting. Bore is good. Stock is good with several inspector/proof stamps.

My Question is Where to look for detailed info ?
Also would it be safe to shoot 8mm mauser ammo ?

This young man is 15 yrs old and a Great kid. We shoot often.
His parents are a positive influence on him and he respects us "Old Farts".

He will be one who will make a lifetime hobby of firearms. He has the historical interest but also wants to be a shooter.

I am just not a Mauser Guy so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
John Ed

[dave]

Picture would help and perhaps a better description. If the receiver or barrel has a large S on it (in the area they meet) it has been converted to use the larger .323 m/m bullet, from the .318 m/m. Check if the serial numbers match on bolt & receiver, if all the numbers on all parts match it may be worth some real money and he may want to reconsider shooting it. There is no reason to think it is unsafe to shoot but it can always be tried tied down to a tire using a string for trigger. Then check m/t case for signs of over pressure. Go to Gunboards Forums and there will be couple of discussion threads there on Mausers and Gew.98's. Or 'Google' G-98's, altho there may be a lot of mis-info there! Start with US commercial 8 m/m ammo, it is loaded down from military foreign 8 m/m, some of which can be very hot, and old!

[John Ed]

Thanks !!

I will pass the info on to him. Maybe suggest that he join this forum and post pictures

Really appreciate info.

John Ed

[jon_norstog]

The G98 should be OK with .323 ammo. The changeover to the larger bore was in 1895, and the updated spitzer bullet became standard in 1903. The rifle may or may not have aN "S" stamped on it.

My experience with the G98 is it will string vertically the first few shots, then when the barrel warms up will group very close indeed, 8-10" above the point of aim at 100 yards.

Good luck!

jn

[dave]

The change over to larger bore was not 1895, before G.98 even existed. (typo?) The change came much later (1905?). Existing rifles were not re-bored either, only the chamber throats were relived to allow the case to expand and release the bullet easier, this kept pressure within limits. Those rifles WERE stamped with an S. The S stamp was used for some years after new rifles with larger bores were being manufactured.

[bruce]

Good bore and chamber? Date reflects period long after change over, etc. Fire away! Sincerely. bruce.

[dave]

Olson page 104, 3rd. ed. states 'the second change occurred in the 1904-05 period, grooves were deepened to .0065" so rifling would be proper size for the .323 spritzer bullet'. Page 130---'the S cartridges was adopted in the 1904-05 period'.
So why do you people keep saying the change over was much earlier?? It was not, it was 04-05!! Other authors say the same.

[jon_norstog]

The change over to larger bore was not 1895, before G.98 even existed. (typo?) The change came much later (1905?). Existing rifles were not re-bored either, only the chamber throats were relived to allow the case to expand and release the bullet easier, this kept pressure within limits. Those rifles WERE stamped with an S. The S stamp was used for some years after new rifles with larger bores were being manufactured.


Supposedly the 1895 change involved deepening the grooves to .323" but leaving the lands at the same diameter as the original "I" ("J") cartridge. Part of the confusion comes from the 8x57 round being in use by so many militaries, in the Commission rifles as well as in Mausers, it may be there are multiple dates of adoption for the change. A lot of the primary source documents are probably gone, so later writers may be working off of secondary sources. This is a job for 5MF!

jn

[5MadFarmers]

Supposedly the 1895 change involved deepening the grooves to .323" but leaving the lands at the same diameter as the original "I" ("J") cartridge. Part of the confusion comes from the 8x57 round being in use by so many militaries, in the Commission rifles as well as in Mausers, it may be there are multiple dates of adoption for the change. A lot of the primary source documents are probably gone, so later writers may be working off of secondary sources. This is a job for 5MF!

jn

Neither Mauser nor 8mm. Prussian Commission 7.92mm. Mauser had nothing to do with it. Loewe did. Loewe owned Mauser.

Just a technical trivia point...

Original barrel was 7.90mm x 8.10mm. Jacket were stripping from bullets.
Depth was deepened to 7.90 X 8.15mm in 1896. Barrels made after this are "Z" coded.
Next change took place when the new bullet/case was introduced. 7.89mm X 8.20mm.

Using our measurements:
Barrel 1888: .318898. People like to round this to .318. Clearly it rounds to .319.
Barrel 1896: .3208661. People round this to .321.
Barrel Spitzer: .322835. People round that to .323.

German standard for '88 bullet was 8.08mm. Spitzer is 8.20mm.

'88 cartridge case is same length as later edition. Body throats from 10.86mm to 8.78mm at stepdown. Then 8.78mm to 8.62mm at neck. Later one goes from 10.84mm to 8.91mm. Then 8.91mm to 8.72mm at neck.

Gew88 rifles were rechambered for the new cartridges. Barrels weren't changed as it wasn't necessary - the case dimension change was the issue. It's not recommended to shoot the 8.20mm "Spitzer" in barrels with the shallow grooves (8.10mm) but the 8.15mm edition, introduced in 1896, is fine; which is why they didn't bother punching them out at all. Even the '88 bullet had problems in the shallow groove 8.10mm but that had more to do with the bullet jacket design.

People often conflate barrel and chamber differences. It's the chamber differences which were the important bit.

[5MadFarmers]

Part 2.

GEW88s have two barrel dimensions but one chamber dimension.
GEW98s, when introduced, used the second barrel and chamber dimension from the GEW88s.

Chamber pressures were reduced in 1899.

When the new cartridge was introduced the chamber pressure was stepped up to about half-way between the first and second edition of the '88 cartridge.
Chamber dimensions were redone on rifles - both early GEW98s and late GEW88s. Which had the same dimensions.

All of which brings us to OP's rifle.
If the barrel is .321 it's the early GEW98 barrel dimensions. Which won't matter.
It's, again, the chamber dimension which matters. If it's chambered for the '88 cartridge it's wrong. I'd consider it very unlikely as they redid them. Very very unlikely.

Chamber versus barrel. Barrels on first generation GEW98 and second generation GEW88s, being the same, are slightly smaller than the later GEW98s. The Germans clearly felt this wasn't significant as they ignored it. The chamber dimensions changed. They clearly felt this mattered as they addressed it.

Stick a cartridge in it. Pull the trigger with a strap. If the case is hard to extract you probably have the early chambering. Very unlikely. That is how it'd show up.

The "positive feed" addition addressed sticky cases. Sole purpose it was introduced. GEW88s received new bolt heads for that exact thing.

Hope that helped. Kind of detailed but many will point to barrel dimensions being a big deal. Nope. Chamber dimensions were. Ergo the Germans addressing one and not the other.

[jon_norstog]

Thank you Mr. Farmer! My own Gewehr is an Oberndorff with a 1918 date and was part of a Turkish contract. It has lots of lathe marks, the stock was unfinshed and still fat, as if it had just come off the rough-turning machine. The rifle was pretty obviously made in haste. I'm thinking it may have been made in the period between the armistice and the Treaty signing. There's a story there, I imagine. In any case the rifle seems to have spent most of its life in the armory, acquiring what some might call a "patina." I got it before this site wised me up about sanding and finishing stocks on a fine old milsurp. The rifle hits what you aim at and hits it hard.

[5MadFarmers]

Thank you Mr. Farmer!

No problem. That's an issue which has been full of smoke for a century. Early on it annoyed me enough, I'd acquired some very interesting GEW88s, that I finally said screw it and went to the German sources. What became clear was conversion from metric to standard was causing much of it. Then there was the barrel versus chamber issue. Just muddied it further. The old wives tale is some early GEW88 rifles were imported with the original barrels. American cartridges were then downloaded for those. Sounds like something invented in a bar discussion. Barrel size didn't matter. After WW1 ended the Germans couldn't make gun stuff. The Czechs, having broken off from Austria, could. They had the Steyr equipment. They did land-office business making replacement barrels for GEW88s for those countries having them (Ecuador to name just one) and, for whatever reason, used the original barrel sizes. Much later those guns were imported here and are interesting as they're clearly Czech post-WW1 manufacture and are, again, the early size. Those countries obviously didn't have issues. Chamber size is a different thing entirely and that clearly mattered.

Mind if I make an observation on 1918 produced guns? The second book covers WW1 U.S. rifle manufacture. What's clear is, even given access to Pratt & Whitney (who was supplying rifle machinery to everyone on planet earth), it took a year to get a rifle into production. It's another 6 months before the first gun appears. Production - not tool room stuff. After that 1.5 year period they can crank them out like samples. Eddystone was clear that they could make rifles faster than supply of metal and wood could keep up. Eddystone and New England Westinghouse could each turn out 6,000 rifles per day. They could peak higher even.

The rush to get guns, with respect to Germans, English, and French, was really 1914 right? By 1916 that was solved. Thus the Brits really didn't want the pattern 14s. Their own production of SMLEs had caught up and was doing fine. I'd have to expect the Germans had the same thing. From 1914 to 1916 it would be massive production expansion. A rifle shortage. After that everyone is armed. So just replacements. Not terribly hard. WW2, with respect to Germany, is something else as they were losing armies right and left. WW1 wasn't that way for them. So I'd expect 1918 production to be pretty sedate compared to 1915. Poor workmanship would be more a result of cost reduction. "Quit sanding and painting the axles for gob's sake. Didn't you know there is a war on?" Check fit and finish of an M-1903 and an M-1903A3....

Gallipoli started in early 1915 right? I'd expect the Germans supplied the GEW88 based on that rapid need. Then, as GEW98 production continued to motor along, they could send GEW98s all day long. By 1918 the Turks would have been well supplied. So getting GEW98s as spares and replacements for GEW88s. Which were probably passed down to shipyard guards and the like.

[jon_norstog]

My thought was that Mauserwerke knew the Treaty would put them out of business and were rushing to fill orders and collect their pay, as much as they could, before they got closed down.

jn

[5MadFarmers]

My thought was that Mauserwerke knew the Treaty would put them out of business and were rushing to fill orders and collect their pay, as much as they could, before they got closed down.

jn

Hadn't thought of that. That makes sense. It does assume the military would accept them though right? Except the Turks might have been willing to accept anything given it must have been obvious supply would shortly be ending.

[jon_norstog]

There was a faction in the "Young Turk" movement that wanted to unite all the turkic-speaking peoples in a kind of emprie. The plan was to pick off all of Russia's central asian provinces. Enver Pasha formed a Turkish Legion and led it east, participated in the nastiness around Baku and met his end in a cavalry charge against mechanized Soviet Forces somewhere north and east of the Caspian Sea. They felt they might need LOTS of rifles at the time.

jn

[free1954]

There was a faction in the "Young Turk" movement that wanted to unite all the turkic-speaking peoples in a kind of emprie. The plan was to pick off all of Russia's central asian provinces. Enver Pasha formed a Turkish Legion and led it east, participated in the nastiness around Baku and met his end in a cavalry charge against mechanized Soviet Forces somewhere north and east of the Caspian Sea. They felt they might need LOTS of rifles at the time.

jn


an interesting piece of history that is largely forgotten in the west.

[slamfire]

The rush to get guns, with respect to Germans, English, and French, was really 1914 right? By 1916 that was solved. Thus the Brits really didn't want the pattern 14s. Their own production of SMLEs had caught up and was doing fine. I'd have to expect the Germans had the same thing. From 1914 to 1916 it would be massive production expansion. A rifle shortage. After that everyone is armed. So just replacements. Not terribly hard. WW2, with respect to Germany, is something else as they were losing armies right and left. WW1 wasn't that way for them. So I'd expect 1918 production to be pretty sedate compared to 1915. Poor workmanship would be more a result of cost reduction. "Quit sanding and painting the axles for gob's sake.

The concerted allied offensives in 1918 killed more troops on both sides than had been killed in previous offensives. The offensives of 1916 and 1917 get more publicity because of the waste and futility. But in 1918, not only people were being lost in massive quantities, so were material items. I am not certain it was obvious to anyone that the war was going to be over till October 1918 when Germany was in total economic collapse. I believe I have read of Allied predictions of victory in 1919, these were best guesses. I think the Germans had a better idea of their status than anyone else, and they were in denial. Would have been a bit bad for German public morale to cancel German production contracts based on the assumption they "were going to lose the war" in a couple of months. The German public was starving at the time, Germans were actually starving to death in 1918 and into 1919. But until the Armistice, the full resources of all countries were being applied to the maximum extent possible. I am certain someone, somewhere, guessed correctly and cut production early. Even after 11 Nov the Allies kept their troops ready to go on offensive because they really did not trust the Germans. It took awhile for everyone to realize that the war was really over, and the Kaiser was out, and so was his military.

Springfield Armory (and I think Rock Island Armory) shut down in early 1918 because the rifles they were making were defective, the production lines were obsolete but there was no shortfall of issue rifles because of M1917 production. Hatcher and the US Army really don't talk about this, shutting down SA and RIA in the middle of a shooting war, because if this got out it would have been a major embarrassment to the Ordnance Department.