View Full Version : An interesting observation for Dick Hosmer...
Dick, here's another experimental rear sight leaf on serial number 86. Wow!
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Dick Hosmer
05-31-2017, 08:55
Fascinating! And, Graham apparently never noticed the difference. I never figured that 62 was unique, but I do claim to have been the first person to bring the variation to light.
Wonder what caused them to run the sight into the receiver at #6? Apparently - SO early on in the process - they just slapped some parts together, basically as a 'mock-up', without regard for the final appearance. Whatever they took the barrel from, that is where the sight dovetail made them mount the sight, which was just ground off, I guess?
Thought for the day:
You now need a 4-digit 1869, a 5-digit 1869, and a 5-digit 1870! And, NO, I am NOT joking - at all - such a run would really be the epitome, and would make one FANTASTIC display. Sure winner at the annual NRA show.
Good news is that all three can be obtained quite reasonably, and would be fun to assemble. In fact, I'd be willing to sell you my 25755, which is of comparable condition, at some future date. I'll put your name on it right now, just in case. That would be a great home for it.
Dick, I think that number 6 has a liner.
Converted musket barrels would certainly have the rear sight dovetails to contend with.
I wonder if that could be one of the reasons the decision was made to make new barrels...?
That's a Great idea Dick!! I might as well since the really tough to find ones have been gotten. I just Forest Gump'd my way into those, that's for sure. I'll run your suggestion by the Memsahib.
You're the first and only person to notice that difference in the rear sights! :1948:
I wonder if Serial Number 131 also has this sight...?
I'm still trying to get a response from a guy on YouTube who was shooting his 1869 dated rifle with the serial number of 216.
That'd be a neat thing to have too.
Dick Hosmer
05-31-2017, 11:09
Oooops, I forgot the 3-digit 1869 - that would have to be included, but still not a deal-breaker.
You can get a good start with the 4-digit 1869 and either 5-digit. That would make the "basic" set, which could be filled in as you go.
Rifle 86 has wonderful metal surfaces. Really clean.
Rifle 127 has seen the effects of bad storage maybe. Mostly on the butt plate. There's little wear.
I'm inclined to believe that all of the 1868 made rifles must've just been put away in storage after the testing and trials were done, then later sold off as surplus.
Dick Hosmer
05-31-2017, 01:45
Number 6 for sure - later ones that were functionally interchangeable may have seen some service.
62 is nearly new but, like 127, has seen some loss through storage. It could be whizzed to 98-99%, but I'm not about to do so. The occasional rub with an oily rag is sufficient for my needs.
Thought for the day:
You now need a 4-digit 1869, a 5-digit 1869, and a 5-digit 1870! And, NO, I am NOT joking - at all - such a run would really be the epitome, and would make one FANTASTIC display. Sure winner at the annual NRA show.
Good news is that all three can be obtained quite reasonably, and would be fun to assemble. In fact, I'd be willing to sell you my 25755, which is of comparable condition, at some future date. I'll put your name on it right now, just in case. That would be a great home for it.
Dick, I'll lend any rifles you'd need if you'd like to set up such a display. I don't like traveling all that much any more.
You could keep any and all prizes and accolades for yourself if such a display wins anything. Just cover the cost of shipping the rifles both ways with insurance. There ought to be a safe and quick way of sending them.
Dick Hosmer
06-01-2017, 07:21
Appreciate the offer, and the expressed trust, but I'm in the very same boat. Don't display any more, and could never afford the big circuit even when I was younger physically. Another thing about the NRA show is that, AFAIK, no individual displays are permitted, one needs to be a member of a recognized collector group and display under their name.
"Dick's Trapdoors and BBQ" .
S.A. Boggs
06-01-2017, 08:54
"Dick's Trapdoors and BBQ" .
What kind of BBQ?
Sam
Dick Hosmer
06-01-2017, 10:50
Ask Fred - it was his idea! :1948:
Fred, Dick,
Thank you for sharing the information. Dick, hopefully that Mackinac rifle has my name on it... :) Thanks again to both of you for posting your great threads...
there are all the parts for a 1869 four digit #1528 on EBay from one vendor prices aren't outrageous.
Jim
It's sad for me to see an antique U.S. rifle being parted out. Kinda like parting out and selling an Illuminated Text or Medieval Bible, one page at a time.
Kragrifle
06-09-2017, 03:37
Where do I join up?
Dick Hosmer
06-09-2017, 09:19
Where do I join up?
Assume you are referring to post #13? :1948:
Here's another interesting feature on rifle #6...
The trigger guard sling swivel isn't held onto the trigger guard with a Screw. It is held on with a rivet.
Here are photos of both sides of the swivel.
Note how the trigger guard on rifle #6 is Armory Blued and not Armory Bright.
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Dick Hosmer
06-09-2017, 04:33
The rivet vs. screw thing is no big deal - depends on which musket it came from - but the bluing is unusual.
Dick, was the 1st model 1863 Springfield Rifled Musket the one that had blued barrel bands and springs or was it the 1864? I know that the rear sights were blued.
I recently received from Dixie Gun Works a Surplus rear barrel band for the Model 1863 Rifled Musket that has the split at the bottom with a screw in it. It's mint and is blued. I only needed the screw, but Dixie only had the barrel bands with the screw, so for $20.00, I just bought the band. It's interesting how that unused surplus barrel band is still available today. They sure made a lot of spare parts in anticipation that the Model 1863 was going to be around for some time.
Anyway, the rifle is an interesting one that had been examined for consideration as the final design of that model. I sure would like to see rifle's #1 and #8 to see how they differed from each other and this one.
Edatbeach
06-10-2017, 01:43
The rivet vs. screw thing is no big deal - depends on which musket it came from - but the bluing is unusual.
Actually, the "Table Showing Changes..Rifle-Musket from 1855 to 1873" (Fuller, p.295) specifies that the guard bow and screw of the M1864 - the model with band springs - is used on the M1866/68/70 rifles. Use of the rivet type ended with the M1863 - the rifle musket without band springs.
Edatbeach
06-10-2017, 01:49
Dick, was the 1st model 1863 Springfield Rifled Musket the one that had blued barrel bands and springs or was it the 1864? I know that the rear sights were blued.
I recently received from Dixie Gun Works a Surplus rear barrel band for the Model 1863 Rifled Musket that has the split at the bottom with a screw in it. It's mint and is blued. I
It's interesting how that unused surplus barrel band is still available today. They sure made a lot of spare parts in anticipation that the Model 1863 was going to be around for some time.
Yes, the M 1863 was the one with blued split bands. There were a lot of Springfield parts left over because this model was the one used for M1868/70 stocks, since the middle band did't need to be filled in, thus, many were disassembled. Also, a few outside manufacturers made the M1863, and at the war's end they had large stocks of left over parts.
All Very Interesting! Wow. Thanks Edatbeach!
I'll bet you could tell me if the earliest 1863 Type II or otherwise known as the 1864 rifled muskets initially used the split bands in conjunction with the band springs. Maybe the older parts would've been used up first?
I've seen one such specimen whose Eaglehead stamp was Smaller than on an 1863 with solid bands that I observed.
Edatbeach
06-19-2017, 08:21
All Very Interesting! Wow. Thanks Edatbeach!
I'll bet you could tell me if the earliest 1863 Type II or otherwise known as the 1864 rifled muskets initially used the split bands in conjunction with the band springs. Maybe the older parts would've been used up first?
I've seen one such specimen whose Eaglehead stamp was Smaller than on an 1863 with solid bands that I observed.
Yes. Ordnance Circular No. 42, Series of 1864, gave instructions on how to ID the various models when ordering replacement parts.
The "Model 1863" had "Bands oval and open, with band screws; some are blued and other bright."
The "Model 1864" (i.e. so called Type II) had "Bands oval and bright. The upper and lower band solid and without studs." Also had "Band Springs."
So, the Ordnance Dept. was very strict in the configuration of the various models.
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