Brit Proof Garand - Correct Sling?

[Ironlip]

I've got a very nice 1941 Garand with Brit proofs, so it was a Lend Lease rifle. I would like to put the proper sling on it in my new gun room. We know they were used little if at all, but is anyone aware of pictures showing their use that would indicate the correct sling? Did we ship them over with 1907 leather slings? Something else like the Kerr or the 1924 webbed with all those buckles? Or did the Brits put their own slings on them? There's probably a good chance that the answer to that multi-part question is "Yes" but I wonder what was the most common sling. All opinions appreciated.

[Tom Doniphon]

I would think that since the appropriation for the Lend Lease M1s were made in 1941 before the U.S. entered the War and before use of the M1 web sling, a Model 1907 leather sling would be most appropriate on a Lend Lease Garand. The British Enfield snipers were furnished with M1907 slings too.

[5MadFarmers]

I've got a very nice 1941 Garand with Brit proofs, so it was a Lend Lease rifle. I would like to put the proper sling on it in my new gun room. We know they were used little if at all, but is anyone aware of pictures showing their use that would indicate the correct sling? Did we ship them over with 1907 leather slings? Something else like the Kerr or the 1924 webbed with all those buckles? Or did the Brits put their own slings on them? There's probably a good chance that the answer to that multi-part question is "Yes" but I wonder what was the most common sling. All opinions appreciated.

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=293677

Scroll down for a picture of an M1 in British hands.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/real-dads-army-vintage-photos-britains-home-guard-ww2-1542237

Scroll down to the picture of Churchhill walking by Home Guard dudes. No M1 rifles but the old guy has a Kerr sling on his rifle.

[Sunray]

"...so it was a Lend Lease rifle..." Not necessarily and highly unlikely. Those BNP stamps just mean it was sold through England at some time. British proofing has nothing to do with Lend/Lease. Didn't start until the mid 1950's either. However, a real Brit Lend/Lease M1 will still have it on the barrel too.
Most M1 Rifles(38,001 of 'em. Most in the 300,000 to 600,000 serial number range. Stock will have an “SA” over “GHS” enclosed in a box cartouche. And it'll have the “Type 1 lock bar.” rear sight.) sent to England sat in a warehouse for the duration and were eventually returned, unused, except for some issued to RAF Regm't troopies guarding air fields in the American sector after the war. The fore stock was also painted with a red band with a black .30 or .300 indicating it was not a standard Brit chambering.

[JimF]

. . . . . . And it'll have the “Type 1 lock bar.” rear sight.) . . . . ..

Not all LL M1's had "type 1's" . . . . Mine has the earlier "Flush nut". --Jim

[Ironlip]

My rifle is 383449 with an 11-41 barrel date, the SA over GHS stock stamp and the flush nut sight. Thanks to everyone for their input.

[5MadFarmers]

My rifle is 383449 with an 11-41 barrel date, the SA over GHS stock stamp and the flush nut sight. Thanks to everyone for their input.

Most of the rifles in the 300K and 500K ranges are the first and second batch of rifles sent. Not all are in that range but typically you'll not find them higher than 500K. Rifles with serials earlier than 300K were included - taken from stock. If it has a serial under than 600K and British proofs it's generally a lend-lease. The British proof laws of the late 1950s resulted in them getting "export proofs" if you wish to call it that. Any rifle leaving received them but, with regards to M1 rifles, there was no huge batch of rifles passing through England after that so the bulk of the M1 rifles having the proofs are lend-lease. Again, if it's under 600K and has Brit proofs it's likely a hit. Not a lot of later rifles with Brit proofs are encountered.

The rifles were issued to sundry units early in the war. Commandos used them when supporting US forces, Torch as an example, and they left some records.

They were used in the Korean war. People forget that.

So, with respect to slings, pick your choice. They received M-1917s in large numbers and those had slings - as can be seen from the Kerr on that one I linked to. No reason M-1907s weren't on many.

WW2:

https://honortheveteransblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/welsh-guard-with-m1-garand.jpg

Korea:

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/koreanwar_06_23/k37_10413189.jpg

So, yes, it's most likely a lend-lease.

[Sunray]

Bottom picture is from Korea. Proves nothing about Lend/Lease rifles. Real Marines used U.S. kit in Korea. Said kit was issued locally and was not Lend/Lease. The Lend/Lease Act expired in 1945. Most Brit Lend/Lease rifles were returned before the war was over as well.

[5MadFarmers]

Bottom picture is from Korea.

Which is maybe why I captioned it "Korea?" After stating: "They were used in the Korean war. People forget that."


Proves nothing about Lend/Lease rifles

What it does "prove" is you know about as much about LL M1 rifles as I know about the French health care system. "Next to nothing."


Real Marines used U.S. kit in Korea.

Of course they did. U.S. personnel normally do.


Said kit was issued locally and was not Lend/Lease.

***Citation needed.*** There won't be any. Zero. An assertion rendered due to notions.


The Lend/Lease Act expired in 1945. Most Brit Lend/Lease rifles were returned before the war was over as well.

That's funny. Very much so. I wonder how long it's been since there has been a logic fail of that magnitude?

If they were returned before the war was over then how, pray tell, did so many end up with those late 1950s proofs? Somebody rounded up a bunch of pristine M1 rifles, all from the same era, all showing signs of missing the typical rebuilds the rifles in U.S. service had, and then sent them to England to get proofed and then brought them back again?

Their history is known. Lend-lease either had to be returned or paid for. The guns were paid for. In 1957 they intended to sell them but, by policy, wouldn't sell to foreign firms. Samuel Cummings of Interarms bought the "defunct" firm of Cogswell & Harrison and, via that strategy, purchased the arms. There are still people alive who were present when the guns arrived in the U.S.. Not hard to find the history.

Two of them sitting here. Not terribly hard to find. The reason is well known: they were purchased in the late 1950s and brought back. Both of the rifles I have were purchased from the gents who purchased them from Interarms at that time.

You're completely clueless on the rifles. Completely.

OP? Your rifle isn't terribly far in serial from one of mine. You'd be well advised to ignore those having lots of notions and no knowledge. Your rifle is perfectly in range of the 1st group shipped.
Another thing to beware is those claiming all kinds of parts were marked. A review of numbers of them show markings in various places.

Appreciate it. Early rifle. Generally they retain the parts they were assembled with.

Myself I'd get a Kerr.

[AlanD]

Records at the National Archives in London show that 30,000 Garand rifles were issued to Combined Operations and the RAF.

I believe this purchase predates the 38001 acquired through Lend Lease, I suspect but have no proof that the Lend Lease shipment was passed onto a third party such as the Free French to whom the UK gave 100,000 M1917 rifles.

What are the earliest known serial numbers on Garand rifles that are thought to be Lend Lease, do these serial numbers in fact pre date the implementation of LL, I don't mean the passing of the act itself.

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

[John Sukey]

Just a small addition. While LDV officially stands for Local Defence Volunteers, the more popular meaning was "Look, Duck, and Vanish!":icon_lol:

[2111]

In regards to the picture posted in this thread as "Korea" by "5MadFarmers", Scott Duff used this photo in his article "Garands in the Kings Service" (American Rifleman Apr. 2002). Scott states in regard to this photo, "During the Korean War, British troops of the 41 Royal Marine Commando used Garands and American equipment in combat. It is believed that these rifles were acquired locally and were not part of the "Lend-Lease" stock."
It is my belief that as rifles were not shipped from armories with slings and slings were a unit issue, the L.L. rifles no doubt were shipped to England without slings. The Brits would most likely have used the same sling they used on the Pattern 14, though most Garands were not used.

[2111]

Bottom picture is from Korea. Proves nothing about Lend/Lease rifles. Real Marines used U.S. kit in Korea. Said kit was issued locally and was not Lend/Lease. The Lend/Lease Act expired in 1945. Most Brit Lend/Lease rifles were returned before the war was over as well.

A decision was made in March 1942 that all .30-cal. arms be allotted to the U.S. Army. Transfers under the "Lend Lease Act" were officially terminated at the end of June 1942. (Scott Duff, "Garands in the Kings Service", American Rifleman, Apr. 2002). The rifles obtained from G.B. by Sam Cummings of Interarms in the mid 1950's and sold starting about 1959 were the first Lend Lease rifles purchased by a U.S. Arms dealer. These rifles are the ones which will have the British Proofs in the chamber area.

[FCPDAVE]

Hope this isn't too far off the thread, but I was working on a VFW M1, and the rear handguard has a grooved clip and a crack repair at the top, nicely done, with 4 brass pins. I have an SMLE with the same type of repair.
i've always wondered if there was a link. It came to the VFW in the 60's I believe when the '03s were retired to flag duty only.

[Johnny P]

Not that they don't exist, but so far have not observed one of the virtually certain Lend-Lease M1 Rifles with a pre 1955 commercial proof. The British Government started releasing the L-L 1911A1 pistols for sale in 1952, which is the earliest release and proofing I am aware of.

Occasionally a well worn post WWII Springfield or H&R M1 Rifle will show up with 1955 British commercial proofs, but only proves some British arms merchant bought it and brought it to England.