Trap Door Bullet Trajectory?

[andyinlz]

Now that I know my mfg. 3d Q. 1886 Model 1884 has no serial # records :icon_e_sad:, I wonder if someone can help me understand the trajectory of the rifle.

I am shooting factory loads from Black Hills. See: http://www.black-hills.com/shop/cowboy-ammo/45-70/

405g bullet/1250 fps.

I recently took the rifle to its maiden outdoor trip (with me) to a 300 yard range in WI.

I was about 8 inches high at 100 yards. Original front sight. Original Buffington laid flat.

But, at 200 yards, I could not hit the target--regardless of where I held the sight.

I then ran out of ammo--and my shoulder was about done, too, after being preceded by 60 rounds of .30-.30.

Is this rather-authentic load still going up at 200 yards (I understand it was originally zeroed somewhere north of 300 yards)?

Some other phenomena known to this august group but as-yet unknown to me?

Thanks in advance.

[JimF]

There is a very good chance that the bullet diameter of the Black Hills ammo is FAR TOO SMALL for your barrel.
I'm guessing the BH ammo uses about a .458" diameter, while your rifle is closer to .461" groove dia.
Don't be surprised if the BH ammo "keyholes" at the target. --Jim

[alfajim]

Now that I know my mfg. 3d Q. 1886 Model 1884 has no serial # records :icon_e_sad:, I wonder if someone can help me understand the trajectory of the rifle.

I am shooting factory loads from Black Hills. See: http://www.black-hills.com/shop/cowboy-ammo/45-70/

405g bullet/1250 fps.

I recently took the rifle to its maiden outdoor trip (with me) to a 300 yard range in WI.

I was about 8 inches high at 100 yards. Original front sight. Original Buffington laid flat.

But, at 200 yards, I could not hit the target--regardless of where I held the sight.

I then ran out of ammo--and my shoulder was about done, too, after being preceded by 60 rounds of .30-.30.

Is this rather-authentic load still going up at 200 yards (I understand it was originally zeroed somewhere north of 300 yards)?

Some other phenomena known to this august group but as-yet unknown to me?

Thanks in advance.

Andy first thing you need to do is get a copy of Spence Wolf's book Loading Cartridges for the Original 45-70 Springfield Rifle and Carbine. It has all the proper loading and loading equipment. The bullet you are using is not very good in the trapdoor with the flat nose and if it does not have a hollow base it will not expand to fill the grooves properly.
Using the .405 bullet (1873) with the Buffington rear sight the leaf mudt be up and the slide down, line at base of open (window) lined up with 275 mark on slide it will be set at 150 yards with the lower peep hole and shoot +9" at 100 yards and -6" at 200 yards actual zero is 175 yards.
Hope this helps.

Jim

[Major Tom]

The trajectory is like that of a rock thrown a long distance. At 100 yards, I place 2 targets vertically 12 inches apart. Aim at the lower one to hit the upper one.

[Dan Shapiro]

Wasn't the old adage; "Aim for their belly, so you hit 'em in the chest".

[andyinlz]

Book on its way from Amazon.

The bullets are not keyholing at 50 or 100 yards--nice round holes.

I will pull one of the Black Hills bullets and measure them. I hope they are close, as I am not yet ready to head down a hand loading path (but, of course, saving my brass for some day in the future).

I will also fold up the sight and fool with the slide/peephole.

Thanks again for the hints--this should be fun.

[emmagee1917]

Go here and fill out your info and print a ballistic chart .
http://www.federalpremium.com/Ballistics_Calculator/
Your BC on a 405 grain should be around .281 to .284 .
HTH , Chris

[M2Phil]

The trajectory is like that of a rock thrown a long distance. Agreed. Like firing a .45 cal howitzer.

[andyinlz]

I have received and at least partially digested my copy of Wolf's Loading Cartridges for the Original 45-70 Springfield Rifle and Carbine.

I am leaning towards the 500g load to match my Buffington sight at the correct .459 bullet size, drilled out primer holes, compressed 70 grains, etc., etc.

However, it is rather amazing to me that no one makes this commercially--hand loading is a step I am reluctant to take if I do not have to.

So, are there any commercially available correct (using Wolf data) 500g loads?

If not, are any of the 500g bullets available on Track of the Wolf, Inc. a good place to start (I have enough memory problems without adding lead exposure into the mix)? Maybe this one: https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1178/1/BULLET-459-500-FP

Last, is anyone here in the Chicago area and willing to let me watch a handloading process? I find that in-person exposure is often the best way to learn.

Thanks in advance.

[S.A. Boggs]

Have you ever observed a rainbow? I shoot a .45acp and good until I run out of slide!
Sam

[p246]

I went to casting my own. Most commercial bullets are way too hard and don't expand well in the bore at ignition. I got lucky and got several hundred pounds of pure lead from an X-ray room they remodeled from an old hospital. Add a little tin and I end up with 505 grain bullets in the mold I use. If you start reloading take it slow and start with a single stage press. Compression die over drop tube IMO. You have the go to source I started with, take your time and you will find reloading is as fun as shooting.

[andyinlz]

And, pray tell, what was "the source I started with"?

Thanks.

[S.A. Boggs]

And, pray tell, what was "the source I started with"?

Thanks.
Go to Graff and Son as they have everything you will need @ a reasonable price. Pick up the Lyman Manual, Hornady reloading equipment. Lee makes a decent casting equipment, lousy dies that won't hold up. Reloading isn't hard just take it slow @ first. I quit counting @ 500,000 rounds.
Sam

[alfajim]

I have received and at least partially digested my copy of Wolf's Loading Cartridges for the Original 45-70 Springfield Rifle and Carbine.

I am leaning towards the 500g load to match my Buffington sight at the correct .459 bullet size, drilled out primer holes, compressed 70 grains, etc., etc.



However, it is rather amazing to me that no one makes this commercially--hand loading is a step I am reluctant to take if I do not have to.

So, are there any commercially available correct (using Wolf data) 500g loads?

If not, are any of the 500g bullets available on Track of the Wolf, Inc. a good place to start (I have enough memory problems without adding lead exposure into the mix)? Maybe this one: https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1178/1/BULLET-459-500-FP

Last, is anyone here in the Chicago area and willing to let me watch a handloading process? I find that in-person exposure is often the best way to learn.

Thanks in advance.

Buffalo arms carries both the 405 HB GOV bullet #460405HB in boxes of 50 they are sized @.459 and pre lubed with SPG lube also the 500 gr GOV #459500 also pre lubed with SPG lube in box of 50.
I have both they are very nice bullets. They both are cast @ 20-1 lead tin and the 500 is cat from the NEI 1881 mold. Not sure on the 405's NEI or LEE? Price is not to bad and no hazardous handling fee.

Jim

[1972Doug]

You need to google the 500 grain bullet, there is accompany that makes them in the orginal shape. had 100 loaded and are first rate