Frazier's Patent 50-70 cartridge box

[Fred]

I just today obtained this cartridge box for 50-70 Springfield. It has I think a New York National Guard plate on it as most I've seen seem to have. It's smaller and more compact than I thought it'd be.
I really like it!
Didn't the New York National Guard use the long barreled Remington Rolling Block Rifles with the high hammer spur?

41284

[Fred]

41285

[Edatbeach]

Yes, NY used its own unique configuration Remington rolling block rifle in .50-70 Government. It has a 36" barrel, and a notably high hammer.

[Fred]

41290

[Dick Hosmer]

Does it have the wooden block inside? Bored for 18 rounds, and sloped so that heads don't overlap.

[Fred]

Yep, I figured it had a block in it for 50-70 and told him so. That's when he measured them and saw that I was right.

$199.99

[Fred]

41293

[Fred]

41294

[Fred]

41295

[Tkacook]

That is a really nice piece.

[Dick Hosmer]

Yep. I'm having trouble with downloading the photo of it. the seller thought it was for 45-70.

$199.99

Well, it could be - but the original block would have been for .50-70. Looks like a nice specimen.

[70ish]

These boxes were used by several states. I don't recall all of them, but I think most of the boxes retained the same "NG" plate. I think New Jersey changed some of the plates, but at least New York and Pennsylvania kept the National Guard plates like yours. The original inserts were, as you said, for 50-70.

[Fred]

I've seen some for 20 rounds that must be the 45-70 blocks. I bought this one to use while shooting my rifles because it Was 50-70.

[Fred]

Yes, NY used its own unique configuration Remington rolling block rifle in .50-70 Government. It has a 36" barrel, and a notably high hammer.

Thanks for the pictures and the reply!

[Fred]

These boxes were used by several states. I don't recall all of them, but I think most of the boxes retained the same "NG" plate. I think New Jersey changed some of the plates, but at least New York and Pennsylvania kept the National Guard plates like yours. The original inserts were, as you said, for 50-70.

Thanks!

[Fred]

Well, it could be - but the original block would have been for .50-70. Looks like a nice specimen.

Thanks Dick!

[cwbuff]

Here are some pics of mine. I use it when I shoot my 2nd Allin and Sharps Carbine conversion.

413044130541306

[Fred]

Neat cartridge box!!!

[Major Tom]

Fred, thanks for the photos! But, everytime you post photos of your collection I have to change my shirt because of extreme drooling! 8-)

[Fred]

Fred, thanks for the photos! But, everytime you post photos of your collection I have to change my shirt because of extreme drooling! 8-)

:icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:

[Fred]

Yes, NY used its own unique configuration Remington rolling block rifle in .50-70 Government. It has a 36" barrel, and a notably high hammer.

I thought I responded to your post long ago but I couldn't find it. So, Thank You again for the great photos of that Rolling Block!!!

[kab]

Used mine for years with my '84 - thought it was odd that it only was bored for 18 rounds ! (mine is stamped RI)

-kab

[jaie5070]

Sweet boxes. One more thing I didn't know about. The one thing I do find irritating about the NY rolling block is the safety feature.

[bruce]

That is a very nice historical artifact. Sincerely. bruce.

[Dick Hosmer]

Sweet boxes. One more thing I didn't know about. The one thing I do find irritating about the NY rolling block is the safety feature.

As an aside, the "locking action" which IS clumsy, and often mis-described, was also used on the 10,000 1871 "Army" models made by Springfield, though with a more normal hammer.

[butlersrangers]

That Rolling-Block 'safety feature', (dropping to 1/2 cock, when the block was closed), IIRC was designed by Erskine S. Allin. I can't help but think he had a 'vested interest' and was put in the strange position of 'improving' a competitor's action. Maybe some of the clumsiness was intentional?

There was an alleged problem with 'sensitive' primers firing, when the unsupported Rolling-Block was snapped shut. Sharp's Rifle Co. advertising exploited this.

I believe there were some accidents with Navy Models of Remington design. The Navy (Models) firing pin was retracted simply by a coil spring. Rust, dirt, dried grease, and corrosion could jam the firing-pin in a 'protruding' position. Eventually, the Navy Rolling-Block Manual instructed running the thumb across the block-face to insure the firing pin had retracted.

E.S. Allin's modification and later Rolling-Block models had various devices, (cams or levers), to positively retract the Firing-Pin.

[Edatbeach]

The halfcock safety feature was designed by W.S. Smoot, patent no. 120,788. A former ordnance officer, he was at that time in the employment of Remington.

[Dick Hosmer]

That Rolling-Block 'safety feature', (dropping to 1/2 cock, when the block was closed), IIRC was designed by Erskine S. Allin. I can't help but think he had a 'vested interest' and was put in the strange position of 'improving' a competitor's action. Maybe some of the clumsiness was intentional?

There was an alleged problem with 'sensitive' primers firing, when the unsupported Rolling-Block was snapped shut. Sharp's Rifle Co. advertising exploited this.

I believe there were some accidents with Navy Models of Remington design. The Navy (Models) firing pin was retracted simply by a coil spring. Rust, dirt, dried grease, and corrosion could jam the firing-pin in a 'protruding' position. Eventually, the Navy Rolling-Block Manual instructed running the thumb across the block-face to insure the firing pin had retracted.

E.S. Allin's modification and later Rolling-Block models had various devices, (cams or levers), to positively retract the Firing-Pin.

Unfortunately, to be nit-pickingly (is that a word?) correct, Chuck's response perpetuates the mis-description mentioned above. The hammer does NOT drop to "half-cock" which would be a restrained (and thus friction-free) position. The hammer is simply released so as to DRAG on the breechblock. It 'works', from a safety standpoint, but is awkward.

[butlersrangers]

I am sorry I may have given a 'bum rap' to E.S. Allin, whose 'cartouche' appears on the model 1871 (Springfield made) .50-70 Rolling-Block rifles. I did not know about W.S. Smoot, his patent and employment by Remington Arms. It is good to clear up old myths.

I use to own a U.S. Navy Carbine (from 1868-1869) in .50 Carbine. With its 23 inch barrel, spring retracted firing pin, simple 'stud' extractor, and sling swivels, it was a very fast operating and convenient arm. It had to be great for Naval Landing Parties.

Later, I had a model 1871 Springfield Rolling-Block. It was a very clumsy arm by comparison with the carbine. The hammer rotating a bit forward to support the block, upon closing the block, (and the mechanical noise!) was a bit disconcerting, especially when familiar with other Rolling-Block models. I have never liked the U.S. model 1871 or N.Y. variations.

Thank you, Dick Hosmer, for clarifying the actual function of this R-B variation.

Also, my apologies to the O.P. That is a very handsome cartridge box and thanks for sharing!

[Major Tom]

Really great Fred. Thanks for showing it!

[Fred]

Hey, I'm glad you guy's like stuff like that! There's nobody around here, including my wife, is interested in this neat stuff. LOL
I remember when Dixie Gun Works used to have all types of cartridge boxes and belts from $7.50 to $12.00 for the really rare ones.

[Fred]

Wow. there's so much good information that comes from this and Al Fraska's site. These discussions among you guys (yall) are extremely interesting. If we were all neighbors in the same town, I'd put up a shack with an old wood burning stove in the middle of the room with a bar off to one side with a whole lotta old wooden Captains chairs sitting around it in a circle. Summer Sausage, sandwich fixens, beer, fruit juices and water, and a gun rack off to one side with maybe a neat ol Trapdoor, Sharps, Remington, Colt or whatever hanging up in it. Of course the bar would also be where anyone could take a gun apart or just look at it.
The stuff we could talk about!

Wow, I think I just described Miss Kitty's place in Gunsmoke. What was the name?
The LONG BRANCH saloon! LOL

[Dick Hosmer]

I'd enjoy nothing more! I STILL plan to visit you if my wife's health improves (and she does seem to slowly be getting better) while our grandson is in med school in Lincoln.

[Fred]

I hope your wife's health continues to improve Dick. Whether you both can visit or not this year, I do hope that her health improves.
If you Are able to visit your grandson in Lincoln, youll find my three 1868's interesting to examine.

[butlersrangers]

Fred - Build it and we will come!!!

[Fred]

43141

- - - Updated - - -

43143

[Fred]

Three of the first 150 1868's, which of course all have 1868 dated breechblocks.
Serial numbers 6, 86 and 127.


43144

43145

43146

[Fred]

They've all got bores like this.
This is on rifle number 6.

43147

[Dick Hosmer]

I'll look forward to seeing them! Of course, I've seen/handled 86 before, when it was in the collection of the late Graham Burnside, whom old-timers will remember as a very prolific author in the firearms field during the 1950s-1980s. He would be pleased that the rifle, which was one of his favorites, is in such good hands.

[Fred]

Thanks Dick. Yes, I believe I remember that rifle number 86 might've been the first 1868 with an 1868 breechblock that you saw while first visiting with Graham Burnside. As a Young man too wasn't it?