trapdoor 5 groove barrel

[alfajim]

There is a Springfield trapdoor 5 groove barrel on E Bay appears to be genuine with 2 PP proof marks and V P & eagle. Bore looks good, shinny receiver is damaged according to write up. It is an early square breech block notch and the tang is also damaged. I just listed all the pieces to build one receiver #1075xx but no stock so a rare 5 groove could be built. I would love to but my sudden change in circumstances won't let me having to sell extra parts too.:icon_evil::icon_e_sad::icon_e_sad:

Jim

[Dick Hosmer]

Yep, the naysayers, never want to discuss the proof-marks on those barrels, just to say they are not "right". Been slogging away in that fight since 1970 - still don't have an answer. Other manufacturers are known to have used 5G barrels, and, no records have (yet) been found of their production at SA.

So, the marks are either forgeries, or there are some papers missing. FWIW, they have been found in rifle, carbine, and cadet lengths, as well as with both round and square shanks (which changed at the same time as the front of the breechblock cutout you mentioned. In a way, that is a negative, since if they were THAT widespread, there would HAVE to be some documentation.

[alfajim]

Yep, the naysayers, never want to discuss the proof-marks on those barrels, just to say they are not "right". Been slogging away in that fight since 1970 - still don't have an answer. Other manufacturers are known to have used 5G barrels, and, no records have (yet) been found of their production at SA.

So, the marks are either forgeries, or there are some papers missing. FWIW, they have been found in rifle, carbine, and cadet lengths, as well as with both round and square shanks (which changed at the same time as the front of the breechblock cutout you mentioned. In a way, that is a negative, since if they were THAT widespread, there would HAVE to be some documentation.

Dick, in Joe Poyer's book he does make mention of barrels having been made at SA with 5 grooves and the V/P Eagle markings and also states that no documentation has been found to indicate their purpose other to say the majority of them seems to have been assembled to rifles in the late 19th Century by a surplus dealer. The seller says it could be one of the 1000 Metcalf rifles that were later disassembled and barrels used by Bannerman or Boker. It has an older receiver fitted in place of the original apparently. It also has the one piece lug front sight. This one is full length 32 5/8".
Does anyone know how well they actually shoot?

Jim

[Dick Hosmer]

Then Joe found something which Al Frasca did not, and, while not impossible, goes sgainst long odds. Al has spent a LOT of time at SA.

[alfajim]

Then Joe found something which Al Frasca did not, and, while not impossible, goes sgainst long odds. Al has spent a LOT of time at SA.

Dick FYI just heard back from Al he says it is a SA made barrel made for another user and as it does not have the second P after the Eagle, it means Springfield did not attach the receiver to the barrel and proof test it but it is a genuine SA barrel.

Jim

[alfajim]

Follow on up date the barrel did not sell st $100 so he re-listed it at $125 saying it was priced to low first time that it is valuable and rare so all missed out on it at the lower price and that some if buying should take the damaged receiver and tang and sell on e bay as an old collectable one because there people out there who collect stuff like that. HUH?:1930:

Jim

[Edatbeach]

NOTES ON REMINGTON 5-GROOVE TRAPDOOR RIFLE BARRELS

It is more likely that the trapdoors with with barrels having 5-groove rifling are from aftermarket/assembled rifles from New York dealer Harley & Graham.

On Sept. 28, 1894, H&G wrote to their warehouseman, “We are sending you 580 Springfield barely 45 cal., unfinished, bought from Whitney. Please look these over, and ship them to The Remington Arms Co., Ilion, whom we have instructed to put through with the lot they are now working on for us, and to make them into regular 45 caliber finished barrels.”

On October 9, the list of gun barrels in the attached image was shipped to Remington Arms Co. from the “Whitney Lot:”

In the time period January through October, 1895, H&G issued their gunsmith William Coxford a total of 1,522 “Sets of parts 45 c.f. for Springfield B/L [breechloading] Rifles.” Of these, 48 sets were for cadet rifles. By year’s end, Coxford delivered them back as completed rifles in lots of 100.

From these entries we can see that:

1. H&G was having a variety of unusual trapdoor rifles, in both cadet and full length, made up by their gunsmithing firm.

2. H&G was having the Remington Arms Co. make and finish rifle barrels. At that time, Remington was using 5-groove rifling in their own rifles, so it is likely that they did the same here. No record has been found of how many rifle barrels Remington was making in the on-going deliveries noted in the first memo above, so only the 250 rifle barrels listed in the second entry are documented. Thus, Remington produced at least 250 barrels with 5 groove rifling, and likely many more.

Whether Remington applied any proof markings, or whether H&G had their gunsmith apply proof markings is unknown.

[Tom Trevor]

Alfajim, To answer part of your question a friend bought a rifle sometime ago and found it had one of the five groove barrels. It shot no better than a service barrel but will say it fouled quicker than the standard service barrel.

[alfajim]

Alfajim, To answer part of your question a friend bought a rifle sometime ago and found it had one of the five groove barrels. It shot no better than a service barrel but will say it fouled quicker than the standard service barrel.

Thanks Tom good to know I decided not to go for it just continue on with my original planed build especially using the new barrel I got. Haven't made up my mind to leave it at the 32 5/8" or shorten to 30" for a little less overhang weight?

Jim

[Fred]

I once owned a rifle with a five groove barrel. 11801.
It was pretty neat.

[alfajim]

I once owned a rifle with a five groove barrel. 11801.
It was pretty neat.

Fred and Tom what in your opinion would be the loss of velocity and accuracy if I shorten to 30" or even down to 28"?
It would make it more user friendly at silhouettes but would it suffer to much at the 1000"?
With the stock I have at 28" it would make the rifle balance optically. Just inquiring.

Jim

[Fred]

I sure couldn't help you there.

[Edatbeach]

41366
I once owned a rifle with a five groove barrel. 11801.
It was pretty neat.

It is more likely that the trapdoors with with barrels having 5-groove rifling, like this low numbered one, are from aftermarket/assembled rifles from New York dealer Harley & Graham.

On Sept. 28, 1894, H&G wrote to their warehouseman, “We are sending you 580 Springfield barely 45 cal., unfinished, bought from Whitney. Please look these over, and ship them to The Remington Arms Co., Ilion, whom we have instructed to put through with the lot they are now working on for us, and to make them into regular 45 caliber finished barrels.”

On October 9, the barrels shown in the image above were shipped to Remington Arms Co. from the “Whitney Lot.”

In the time period January through October, 1895, H&G issued their gunsmith William Coxford a total of 1,522 “Sets of parts 45 c.f. for Springfield B/L [breechloading] Rifles.” Of these, 48 sets were for cadet rifles. By year’s end, Coxford delivered them back as completed rifles in lots of 100.

From these entries we can see that:

1. H&G was having a variety of unusual trapdoor rifles, in both cadet and full length, made up by their gunsmithing firm.

2. H&G was having the Remington Arms Co. make and finish rifle barrels. At that time, Remington was using 5-groove rifling in their own rifles, so it is likely that they did the same here. No record has been found of how many rifle barrels Remington was making in the on-going deliveries noted in the first memo above, so only the 250 rifle barrels listed in the second entry are documented. Thus, Remington produced at least 250 barrels with 5 groove rifling, and likely many more.