Picketts charge and the Hurtgen Forest

[S.A. Boggs]

Having studied both I cannot see why they were fought. The German's couldn't understand why we fought there instead of simply bypassing the forest. Longstreet argued against the charge as not feasible. In hindsight good men died for what?
Sam

[m1ashooter]

They died because they were ordered to attack. I don't know of any other reason.

[Vern Humphrey]

Earlier, one of Longstreet's subordinates claimed he had seen the Union wagon trains -- indicating the Confederates had nearly broken through on the second day. It was in the belief the Union Army was nearly finished that Lee ordered Picket's Charge.

Had Lee had good cavalry reconnaissance, he probably would have one the battle. The lack of Stuart and his cavalry is what doomed the Confederates at Gettysburg.

[Sako]

The Hurtgen Forest is where the Yanks were holding the line and the U.S. was anxious to prove we had fighting ability so there we attacked.

[jsaviano]

Dumb Generals in both cases.

[Clark Howard]

It did not help that Marse Robert had been sitting on his portapotty for several days, suffering from diarrhea, when he ordered the attack. Regards, Clark

[Sunray]

Hurtgen Forest plan was to hold German forces in place while First Army was busy at Aachen. Nothing to do with proving anything. Although it was probable that Hodges wanted the same kind of public acclaim GS was getting.
Pickett's charge was because the North was there. A very much 18th Century tactic in the face of artillery and rifles. And Pickett wasn't even in charge.

[Vern Humphrey]

Hurtgen Forest plan was to hold German forces in place while First Army was busy at Aachen. Nothing to do with proving anything. Although it was probable that Hodges wanted the same kind of public acclaim GS was getting.
Pickett's charge was because the North was there. A very much 18th Century tactic in the face of artillery and rifles. And Pickett wasn't even in charge.

Pickett's Charge, which was a Penetration Attack, not a Frontal Attack, suffered because of mishandling of the Confederate artillery, which ran out of ammunition at the crucial moment. The Confederates had more ammunition, but it was in the trains, and Pendleton failed to push it down to the gun positions.

[blackhawknj]

In both cases the generals badly underestimated their enemies. In the late Summer and Early Autumn of 1944 there was all this talk of "The Hun on the Run", all that was needed was one more "Big Push" to finish him off, and there is the current argument that Eisenhower's dislike of Devers led him to keep 6th Army Group out the planning for "The Big Push". At Gettysburg, when Longstreet arrived he took one look at the Union position and said:
"If General Meade is there we had better leave him alone."
And after the war, when Pickett was asked:
"General, why did we lose at Gettyburg?"
he replied:
"I think the Army of the Potomac had something to do with it."
.

[jjrothWA]

Read Coffin;s book; "Witness to Gettysburg", on the evening of the 2nd, the CSA were withing 145 yds of the USA rear echelons and didnot follow through to capture the Baltimore turnpike, as only "Green's Brigade" was stretched holding the vulnerable right flank on Culp's hill and the northern flank of Cemetery Ridge. The battle ended @ 10 o;clock, in the dark.
The follow-up CSA brigades that were to keep the fight after Pickett's men force their wedge, were decimated by the Union cannon fire that had zeroed in on their formations, and the formations of "Wilcox and Perry" didnot follow orders and delayed their start, then decided to attack across the Emmitsburg Rd., against the Cordori house.

The 3rd day is a fantastic "what if" playground.
The entire scope of human feeling was in play.

[Vern Humphrey]

The seizure of Culp's Hill by the Confederates would have resulted in an entirely different battle. Early said, "It took many mistakes to lose the battle of Gettysburg. I made most of them myself."

[Mark in Ottawa]

I have never understood why the US military did not bomb the Hurtgen Forest with incendiaries. Had they given it a little thought they probably could have started several lines of forest fires and trapped the Germans in the middle. to see the effects of forest fires you only have to look at the 120 fires currently raging out of control in British Columbia or at the effects of the huge fire in Fort McMurray Alberta last year.

[barretcreek]

I have never understood why the US military did not bomb the Hurtgen Forest with incendiaries. Had they given it a little thought they probably could have started several lines of forest fires and trapped the Germans in the middle. to see the effects of forest fires you only have to look at the 120 fires currently raging out of control in British Columbia or at the effects of the huge fire in Fort McMurray Alberta last year.

Probably because it would be hard to control the fires once they got going. Col. Blimp is a bit of a control freak, after all. Which isn't to say your idea isn't a good one.

LeMay firebombed Japan 'cause he didn't care if they got out of control; the more the merrier. He wanted those fires to be out of control.

[Vern Humphrey]

The British didn't seem to worry about controlling the floods when they bombed the Ruhr Dams. Just let the fire burn out, and then roll in over the ashes.

[RED]

I have never understood why the US military did not bomb the Hurtgen Forest with incendiaries. Had they given it a little thought they probably could have started several lines of forest fires and trapped the Germans in the middle. to see the effects of forest fires you only have to look at the 120 fires currently raging out of control in British Columbia or at the effects of the huge fire in Fort McMurray Alberta last year.

Could it be because it was December and snow on the ground? Hard to get a raging forrest fire when the underbrush is covered with snow. The Alberta fires were in May, I doubt they could have happened in Dec.

[blackhawknj]

When was the last time you heard of a forest fire in Western Europe ? Totally different wind patterns, rainfall, higher water table. Tokyo was largely built of wood.

[Vern Humphrey]

When was the last time you heard of a forest fire in Western Europe ? Totally different wind patterns, rainfall, higher water table. Tokyo was largely built of wood.

On the other hand, Dresden burned quite nicely.

[blackhawknj]

As did Hamburg. Built up area, lots of old dried out wood, water mains and pumping stations smashed by bombing, etc...

[jgaynor]

I have never understood why the US military did not bomb the Hurtgen Forest with incendiaries. Had they given it a little thought they probably could have started several lines of forest fires and trapped the Germans in the middle. to see the effects of forest fires you only have to look at the 120 fires currently raging out of control in British Columbia or at the effects of the huge fire in Fort McMurray Alberta last year.

I believe burning was tried as a means of clearing the Hurtgen after the war. Didn't work. When I was there in 1958 there were still cautionary signs on some of the rural roads warning of the presence of mines.