Test a M1903-A4 with modern optics

[Richard H Brown Jr]

A wild hare just dove down the back of my pants.

A *rebuilt* demilled 1903a3, that's been converted into a faux 1903-a4. Take it and really make it the best sniiper rifle it can possibly be in the 1940's version, with the repro mount and optics.

Then, with a spare upper mount where the scope is mounted, mill off the lower rings, and mill in some pictinny rails so you can mount some modern sized scope rings, and mount the closest you can get to a modern U.S. Armed Forces sniper system ccope, and then compare 5 rnds at say 500, 750, 1,000, and 1,250 yrd.

Just for s&g's. I wonder how the groups would compare.

R Brown

[GA-Dave]

I think it would need to be restocked to make any real difference. Modern ammo may help also The 03A4 was not particularly accurate. I don't know why you'd need the Picatinny rail. The standard Redfield base should take modern rings. Could be fun though. Test it in original configuration,then retest every time you change a variable.

Have fun,
Dave

[nf1e]

Sounds very interesting.
My 03A4 repro gets a work out regularly with steel AR-500 prairie dogs at 150yds. I personally am content to use it pretty much to show some of the characters that show up at the range with their fancy 22-250s and 22-243s that the old war horse can hold its own with the right trigger monkey.
A rail might be kinda fun too. I do quick change between a bunch of optics on some of my M14 type rifles.
Keep us informed how your project turns out.

Semper Fi
Art

[Sunray]

"...modern sized scope rings..." You mean like the standard 1" Redfield rings that go right on the issue Redfield bridge mount with no fuss whatever?
When I bought my real, 1944 vintage, '03A4 long ago, an issue 2.5X, 3/4", scope was worth about $200US.(I said it was long ago. The rifle cost me $175Cdn.). Didn't have that kind of money or the inclination to track one down, so I put a 2.5X - 8X- 32 Scopechief on it. And work up a load using Hornady 168 grain Match bullets and IMR4064. If I do my part, the thing will shoot under 1 MOA all day long.
You should probably bold the "A *rebuilt* demilled" so nobody has a stroke. snicker.

[nf1e]

I believe he is talking of a rail that will accept current 30mm and 32mm rings. Looks like a fun project to me.
Good for you on your vintage rifle. No need to poo poo another's vision of enjoyment.
Some of the reclaimed receivers are doing a great job. I have a couple with new Criterion barrels and if they don't shoot under 1 moa, it's my fault.

Semper Fi
Art

[Art]

Years ago I saw a similar project. An '03A3 with an '03 upper band, lower band, and floor plate/trigger guard, weaver rings and bases and a nice modern 'scope. I think it was a fixed six power telescopic sight (the brand escapes me now) by a good maker or some such. It was a very handsome rifle and from what the owner said shot very well.

[lyman]

Leupold makes 30mm rings that will fit right in a Redfield base, (same design)

so,
to do a true test,
03-A3 action, true it up a bit if you feel froggy, and don't drill and tap , there are plenty out there that have been
find a new in wrap 03 barrel (they are out there)
decent C stock, (they are out there)
glass bed the action,
good glass, (1" or 30mm)

shoot,
try AP
Ball
173gr match
and some reloads (168's or 175's)

let us know how it does,


I would bet less than MOA,

[Darreld Walton]

I recently rebuilt a previously 'sporterized' 03A4 that I picked up in an old Bishop stock. I had the action/bolt trued, installed a new High Standard barrel, used a pull-through 'match' reamer, mounted a 6-24X50 Burris Black Diamond in medium height 30mm Leupold rings, and shoot 168 A Max/Varget in fireformed FA 59 NM brass. In the full-length glass bedded sporter stock, it shoots amazingly well, so I know that the rifle and load I use will "do it". It does "okay'' with some 1959 vintage FA NM loads, but those are 60+ years old now. Still playing with the bedding in the original Scant stock, and a new C type that I put together for it. I believe that I'm going to end up with an 8X or 10X Lyman that I have on hand, just to get the thing down where glass is useable with the GI wood. HXP doesn't do especially well, but some 'ancient' LC 52 ball isn't too bad out to 5-600 yards, but again, age of the ammo is a big factor. If I ever get the thing onto the line in a vintage match, I'll just go with a Lyman Alaskan on the thing, or one of the Weaver K2.5's I have. The 330 is just a bigger pain in the butt than I want to put up with.

[Darreld Walton]

Got the rifle out to a "proper" range, the Cheyenne Rifle and Pistol Club's 1-200 yard rifle range. Here's the 'sighting-in' target of my 03A4. As mentioned, it has a High Standard barrel, and for this session, I installed a Lyman 8X All American Perma Center scope with adjustable objective. I noted on the target, out of sight, that the round count for this rifle now sits at 50 shots. The rifle shows promise! Cheyenne is renowned for it's 'light breeze', that day, about 10-15 mph, variable direction. The ammunition was one of the three boxes of FA59 NM that I have left. (I started out several years back with over 1K rounds of the stuff) Thought you might be interested. I've got another 'faux' A4 that I've finally got bedded, ready to be shot, it was chambered with the same pull-through 'match' reamer as the HS barrel, on the same day. I'll scope it up, and see what it will do, when the weather finally gives me a chance here. BTW, I didn't mention, and should, that the 6-24X50 Burris' objective lense is big enough that to mount the scope low enough to be useable, I had to remove the handguard. The Lyman 8X objective will JUST clear the A3 handguard with a "red one" to spare.....42993

[bruce]

Interesting thread. A properly set up 03-A4 replica can be very pleasingly accurate even using period optics. I have a nice rifle ... Rem. 03-A3 rebuilt as a 04 replica. It has the little 2.5x Weaver scope w/ the typical fine crosshairs. At a smidgen over 100 yds., it shoots solid MOA w/ plain Winchester 150 gr. Power Points. With the HXP it will typically do 1.25 MOA for five shot strings. Even when the barrel gets warmish ... POI remains the same. Was sighting it in for deer season. Church member put up a little black stick dot for a aiming point. By then I'd already fired three boxes of ammo. Gun was shooting real good. Fired one round at that little black dot and all of a sudden it as gone. He went down and found it on the ground. Guess the glue was a bit lacking. Nice hole just about perfectly centered. I figured I'd save the rest of that nice Winchester ammo for hunting. Only needed one round when the time came. Nice doe cooperated by jumping a fence just about 150 yds. down a hill. Shot her as she went over the fence. Couldn't have shot her better if she'd have been standing still. Just a really fine rifle. One day ... may put something w/ a bit more horsepower on for a scope. But right now, I'm really liking that little 2.5 Weaver and those Winchester Power Points. Sincerely. bruce.

[pmclaine]

I'm presently building a Winchester Model 70, which I consider to be an 03 designed to be profitable through commercial sales, Uncle Sam wasnt worried about profit.

Ill be using the sporter stock with match bedding. The receiver/bolt will be blueprinted a trued, Barrel will be a #7 Douglas premium 1-10 with match chamber.

Im intending to mount a Unertl 10X, 1.25" Combination/Target (anyone have one they want to sell) but might run a Redfield 3-9X 40mm until I find the right Unertl.

I think it might give a pretty good representation of what an 03 built for accuracy would do.

42996

Im guessing 1 inch consistent. .5 inch on occasion with the shooter being the weakest link.

A solid heavy stock would be needed to make it .5 inch consistent.

The weak link on the 03 will be the stock especially if you want to go with the issue barrel and handguard.

[bruce]

I'm presently building a Winchester Model 70, which I consider to be an 03 designed to be profitable through commercial sales, Uncle Sam wasnt worried about profit.

Ill be using the sporter stock with match bedding. The receiver/bolt will be blueprinted a trued, Barrel will be a #7 Douglas premium 1-10 with match chamber.

Im intending to mount a Unertl 10X, 1.25" Combination/Target (anyone have one they want to sell) but might run a Redfield 3-9X 40mm until I find the right Unertl.

I think it might give a pretty good representation of what an 03 built for accuracy would do.

42996

Im guessing 1 inch consistent. .5 inch on occasion with the shooter being the weakest link.

A solid heavy stock would be needed to make it .5 inch consistent.

The weak link on the 03 will be the stock especially if you want to go with the issue barrel and handguard.

YOU have got my attention 100%. Put up a post with your project detailed. There will be lots and lots of folks who will follow it with great interest! JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.

[pmclaine]

YOU have got my attention 100%. Put up a post with your project detailed. There will be lots and lots of folks who will follow it with great interest! JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.

Complete story can be viewed here.

https://forum.snipershide.com/threads/winchester-m70.6789905/

No new updates from builder as of late and Im not the type to pester him.

[pmclaine]

Some new pictures, barrel complete, bluing next week......



43154

43155

43156



My absolute favorite part of any rifle.......



43153




Very happy with my builder, his decisions and his communication.



Current decision is whether or not i want to mount a muzzle front sight block and buy some irons to seldom use but have on hand.



Finding my 1.25" Unertl has not been easy but I know it will come. I have a Redfield 70 base and Rings in case I want to mount a Redfield 3-9X.



If I add the irons thats another option and in a world were Murphy rules could come in handy.

[pmclaine]

Some more pics....

43539

43540

43541

43542

43543

[bruce]

Beautiful work. Looking forward to the completion of this project! Sincerely. bruce.

[PA28R200]

This is a bolt I built, fluted Douglas, 03A3 action, my own mount and blocks, Mac stock,
modified M60 flash suppressor.L&S Ultra M3 10X with Mil dots. 30MM ultra rings.
It is in 30 Cal., Sports a Timney trigger, Consistently Less than 1 MOA with 40 year old M73 match.


43553

43554

[pmclaine]

This is a bolt I built, fluted Douglas, 03A3 action, my own mount and blocks, Mac stock,
modified M60 flash suppressor.L&S Ultra M3 10X with Mil dots. 30MM ultra rings.
It is in 30 Cal., Sports a Timney trigger, Consistently Less than 1 MOA with 40 year old M73 match.


43553

43554

That is a fantastic rifle.

With all the money spent on "custom" receivers I dont know why the '03 receiver isnt chosen more often for the basis of a custom build.

[JimF]

. . . . . . I dont know why the '03 receiver isnt chosen more often for the basis of a custom build.

About the only detriment I can think of, for not using an ‘03 receiver/action, is the s-l-o-w “lock time”!

[pmclaine]

43654

[pmclaine]

Getting there.....

Getting there.....

https://i.imgur.com/ABAgiYCl.jpg

[bruce]

Getting there.....

Getting there.....

https://i.imgur.com/ABAgiYCl.jpg

THAT is going to be a beautiful rifle! Sincerely. bruce.

[pmclaine]

THAT is going to be a beautiful rifle! Sincerely. bruce.

Yes, yes sir, yes it is.

[pmclaine]

43928

43929

43930

43931

43932

[pmclaine]

Looks promising. Just have to tweak my zero a little bit. Ill be putting a Unertl on it to try but am considering a Leupold 3-9X with mil dot for the final sight device.

44171

44172

44173

44174

[bruce]

Wonderful pictures! Continue to follow this thread with interest. Question ... distance for target, etc.? Sincerely. bruce.

[pmclaine]

Wonderful pictures! Continue to follow this thread with interest. Question ... distance for target, etc.? Sincerely. bruce.

That was my first trip to the range after receiving it and in order to ensure I will be on paper at 100 I started at 25 yards.

Ammo was some hunting type 150 grain I picked up just to get on paper.

What looks promising is the continuity of the 1300 impact when I was shooting at the 1 inch circles.

Now that I know Ill be on paper Ill work my sight settings at 100 yards and try to tighten things up.

I intend to see what it will really do with some of the Creedmoor 167 grain Lapua Scenars in Lapua brass I bought from the CMP.

It will likely be 100 or so rounds before the barrel really shines also. Optics should shore up where my eyes fail.

Ill try to shoot this weekend and will provide an update.

[pmclaine]

Made it to 100 yards this past weekend...

44190

Shot some Fed Fusion hunter grade 150 grain lead tip to confirm sight settings....

44189

Moved to the Creedmoor 167 Scenar in Lapua cases, match ammo...

44188

I was impressed that 5 shots went into a tight knot and that when I pull shots they actually hit my point of aim. For iron sights I think it does well.

Next Ill be moving to a scope.

I found the Match rounds to be a bit hard to extract though. Im having the builder recheck the chamber it might be a bit too tight.

[lyman]

I found the Match rounds to be a bit hard to extract though. Im having the builder recheck the chamber it might be a bit too tight.

reloads?

[pmclaine]

reloads?

CMP purchased Creedmoor 167 Lapua scenars in new Lapua brass. Disregard that the chart below claims them to be reloads, they are factory new match rounds. Very good ones I might add.

My reloads wont even chamber.

https://i.imgur.com/cJJ6I51l.png

https://i.imgur.com/v26mwQVl.jpg

Builder painted up one of my reloads with Dykem and found the area at C to show slight bulging.

The reloads are KA brass fired some 4 times in 1903s or a Garand.

I load on a Dillon and I wonder if the progressive size die, kind of beveled to assist the progressive reloading, doesnt squeeze that area of the brass enough for my tight match chamber.

[lyman]

and yet the commercial Fed Fusion will with out issue?

[pmclaine]

and yet the commercial Fed Fusion will with out issue?

Yes sir Fed Fusion fires fine.

No feed or extraction issues at all.

[lyman]

may want to get a mike and measure some dimensions on the Fusion, vs the other ammo,

and maybe try another brand (Redding or Forster come to mind) full length size die,
they will work on the dillon,


or even a Small Base die if that does not work,


just for giggles, resize the fusion brass and see how that does as a reload too, (known to work, and once fired, meaning less worked brass)

[pmclaine]

Post #30

The chart shows the dimensions of the Fed Fusion under the heading "Federal 150 Factory".

Builder indicates "Hard in, Palm Out" but I found it worked fine when I fired it.

It is a good bit "trimmer" at dimension C where my reloads seem to have an issue.

I plan on adding a Redding FL size die after the Dillon trim die (which is a size die) on my press, as well I will reload all my 30-06 using the M70 chamber as the "case gauge".

I dont think the Garand or Springfields will care one way or the other as long as everything is SAAMI.

[pmclaine]

This one of my 168 Nosler CC reloads painted with Dykem....

https://i.imgur.com/KW7HaCLl.jpg


You can see the marking die is wiped just off the bottom of the case at dimension C.

Elsewhere looks good, perhaps oversized as I would expect a "kissing" contact at the shoulder.

[lyman]

I'd try another fL die, or even a small base

[pmclaine]

I'd try another fL die, or even a small base

Yep.

Going to use a Redding or Forster 30-06 Fl die after the Dillon Trim/Size Die.

Dont want to go small base as that would be detrimental to use in the Garand and 03.

Just need to see if another die without the "progressive magwell" will squeeze that last bit of the cartridge base.

[Col. Colt]

By the way - in reference to the original poster's topic of Modern Optics on an 03A4/clone - Evolution Gun Works (EGW - known for high quality 1911 parts) now makes a bolt on replacement Picatinny railed replacement mount in steel for the 03A4 - in both O and 20 Minute variations for long range use. Currently $69 on Ebay, if anyone wants one. CC

[pmclaine]

https://i.imgur.com/Fp5fEpql.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Ca7MC2el.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/UMMQloPl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/JWGhdMGl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/F72gBjTl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/SnqbVLJl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3GFwb1Ul.jpg

Dont see why a properly bedded 03 wouldnt do same.

[Col. Colt]

pmclaine,
Very nice rifle and scope setup! She shoots well! And love the old GI spotting scope! CC

[pmclaine]

I had to try it with the Unertl but the end idea is to mount a Leupold 3-9X replica "green" M40 scope on their.

I love Unertls but they make me nervous Im going to "break" it or something.

The Leupold replica has a mil scale reticle. Ill zero than hold dots.

[lyman]

you are not gonna break that unertl unless you drop it,

they are built well,

[pmclaine]

I know. There is nothing it it but air and glass. They made it through the Pacific and Vietnam nothing I do will be as tough.

Still I want that M70 to be a little more practical.

I have a new in the wrap pre war M1903 C stock that I want to build a USMC Springfield snipe around and that Unertl will go on the WWII sniper clone. Considering bedding up that to be built rifle the way this one was.

[lyman]

I have an old sporter 1903 that someone D&T'ed,
and a C stock,
and a couple Unertl's, Lyman's and a Litschert,

been contemplating the same thing, as well as a semi faux A4 (got the action,mounts etc, and a close enough weaver to use)


time has not been on my side to get it done

[pmclaine]

45613

45614

100 yards my Lot 2 CMP Creedmoor sports 176 Lapua ammo.

[lyman]

good shooting!

[pmclaine]

Whoops! Bought another one...

https://i.imgur.com/J3PkZ05l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/h5sFj3Bl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/mnLPkKBl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/fFncoHzl.jpg

This one will go in a McMillan HTG stock, Heavy MTU or bigger barrel, considering a Bartlein Gain twist, LH 10-8.75, Schmidt and Bender 5-25X.

Should shoot.

[Floyd1977]

48516

[lyman]

48516

distance?
load?
bench or position?

[Floyd1977]

100 yds. It was a thirteen shot match off the bench, top ten counted for score and three were sighters - a very civilized match.

[Floyd1977]

It’s a real A4 with a Lyman Alaskan shooting Sierra seconds 168 SMKs pushed by 46 grns of H4895. I went out with the rifle a little over twenty years ago and bench shooting is the only way I can keep my hand in the game. Excluding the sighters, this group was about 1/2” high and 1 “ wide.

[pmclaine]

Got my 70 back from rebarrel. functioning 100 percent now.

Sighted it in today....

https://i.imgur.com/JFdyOE2l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vnQRWZIl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/SWljTXrl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/X7v8IoHl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/LY4grKFl.jpg

Next up....

https://i.imgur.com/keKsWqKl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/L7OGV7xl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/763tcurl.jpg

[pmclaine]

Guessing my builder shoots a range with a strong right to left wind....

https://i.imgur.com/3kgvKX9l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/02CEE5vl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/IBpvxCml.jpg


This is no good.

[lyman]

ouch,

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

That is a major glitch, and a pain to correct. I guess he doesn't own a Billy Best jig.

I noted your references to a tight chamber. Now I am no expert in this game by any means, but I have always wondered about tight chambers. I have a 257 Roberts with a "tight chamber" built by a well known gunsmith in 1968. Plus P loads are not the ticket in this rifle, and the bolt has to be very forcefully handled to open after firing one. It locks up tighter than a witch's twat. This rifle, which is a hunting rifle with over 10,000 rounds through it, still shoots MOA. While examining A. O. Niedner's shop notes, I found where he had "opened up" the chambers of two of the finest shooter's rifles on the 1916 Marine rifle team. One cannot argue with their results in competition. So which is better, an "open" chamber or a "tight" chamber?

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

49092

For the doubters. Back in 1913, Niedner made sulfur casts of '03 chambers and various ammo to determine chamber volumes versus case dimensions. He cut a reamer for what he called the "Niedner chamber". Incidentally, for those that don't know, Fay and Daulty Smith were two of the best paper punchers (and coaches) the Marine rifle team ever fielded. Fay won the President's Cup. Both were team coaches and both went Distinguished. Fay is the guy who had the team switch to Niedner taper bases.

jt

[pmclaine]

Rifle is in route to the builder to get the scope blocks aligned with the bore.

The barrel appears to be excellent so I hope it is salvageable.....if not.....his dime.

The tight chamber issue has been fixed at least regards the factory FGMM ammo I have had the chance to use.

When I get the rifle back Ill try some M72 and my reloads to see how it goes.

The previous chamber was unserviceable.

I think "tight chamber" helps but the rifle must function first and foremost.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I wholeheartedly agree with your last statement. I was surprised to see such a misalignment considering the excellent scope mounting jigs that have been available for decades. I have three or four different ones in my shop. I like the Billy Best most of all, but they haven't made them for over twenty years now. They function as a dead center alignment tool that can be used for drilling the holes or checking holes already drilled. Back in the day I would often find misaligned holes, but factory drilling eliminated most of the problems. Custom rifles have misaligned holes way more often than one might think. Niedner had a unique drilling jig he made that was pure genius. I like your rifle. I hope the builder corrects his mistake (easily done, BTW) and you come away with a super accurate rifle. Good luck.

[pmclaine]

I wholeheartedly agree with your last statement. I was surprised to see such a misalignment considering the excellent scope mounting jigs that have been available for decades. I have three or four different ones in my shop. I like the Billy Best most of all, but they haven't made them for over twenty years now. They function as a dead center alignment tool that can be used for drilling the holes or checking holes already drilled. Back in the day I would often find misaligned holes, but factory drilling eliminated most of the problems. Custom rifles have misaligned holes way more often than one might think. Niedner had a unique drilling jig he made that was pure genius. I like your rifle. I hope the builder corrects his mistake (easily done, BTW) and you come away with a super accurate rifle. Good luck.

Thank you for the positive wishes.

His shop has been a victim of CV19 due to regular smiths he uses not working.

Ill cut him slack and chalk it up to "Sh$& Happens"

[pmclaine]

Second try....

49138

[pmclaine]

Its back....

Checked zero on receiver sights before mounting the scope...

Messing around with zero...

https://i.imgur.com/DenwhJB.jpg

Where I got to before the tiny set screw on my windage knob split and and I wasnt able to make a final adjustment right...

https://i.imgur.com/4ZIwEWt.jpg

Cannibalized another sight to get my WH working but now need parts to repair the other sight.

One final check on iron sights than I will mount the scope to see how the repairs went and hopefully make some tight scope sighted groups......to be continued.

[pmclaine]

Iron sights....

https://i.imgur.com/xDeCf8rl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/lIJld8el.jpg

Scope

https://i.imgur.com/pesI8Jsl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/yuvr2Xzl.jpg

5 Groups, 4 shots each.

https://i.imgur.com/zLfwgral.jpg

[jmm03]

I know it is not exactly a modern scope but it is more modern than the original,(which I can't see well enough to use)492354923649237

[pmclaine]

I know it is not exactly a modern scope but it is more modern than the original,(which I can't see well enough to use)492354923649237

Nice have parts available to mount a Leupold 3-9X on mine if I get tired of the Unertl. It would make things a lot more user friendly.