The Silence on this forum is Deafening RE: Ken Burns' VIETNAM

[Griff Murphey]

I imagine the vast majority here either served in Vietnam or served during Vietmam. Seems like nobody wants to comment. Most of the Veterans I have talked to are at best lukewarm about it. I must admit the piece I saw on our local PBS station was not reassuring. Burns described the shooting of that VC who had just killed a family as an "Assassination." That said so far I have found episodes 1 and 2 informative. I was in 7th grade when JFK was assassinated and took part in the Vietnam and Cambodian evac ops as a navy dentist with 1st Bn 4th Marines. I was 25...42090 I had 7 years of Army ROTC and had been run through a lot of training about Vietnam and had really thought I had missed it.

There are many people better qualified than myself to offer an opinion on this series. What are your thoughts?

[S.A. Boggs]

This series is a little left of center as Burns is a National Socialist. That VC that was executed was not shot in the usual sense. As the Chief of Police who shot him said, 'Buddha" will understand. Killing is never pleasant unless you are a sociopath, it is often necessary! Personally the VC got off easy considered what the Oriental mind is capable of.
Sam

[bruce]

Have responded to other threads on this topic. Have not had much interest in Burns work since The Civil War. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.

[Roadkingtrax]

It's been good so far, but I don't have political slant obscuring and inhibiting my appreciation of objective historical facts.

[Dan Shapiro]

Not interested in what the left has to say.........so don't watch.

[barretcreek]

Never having owned a television, I couldn't watch. I like to point out, when I was around a t.v., I never went channel surfing to find "The Apprentice" either.

[clintonhater]

Not interested in what the left has to say.........so don't watch.

Can't "allow" for the left-wing bias? Then you must isolate yourself from all media (except crackpots like Rush), because it's pervasive. Recognize & dismiss it, but at the same time glean whatever valid info is presented--such as the personal perspectives of Vietnamese North & South. The incredible incompetence of the successive S. Vietnamese huntas, compared to the absolute commitment & dedication of the North, is no creation, sadly, of left-wing slant.

Hardest thing for me to watch is the anti-war demonstrators--my fantasy is using a flame-thrower on them.

[dryheat]

Coincidentally, I am reading The Gun by C.J. Chivers. With some background on the Gatlin and Maxim in the beginning, it delves into the development of the AK-47 and type 56. Then elaborates on the debacle that was the introduction of the M-16. The problems that the rifle had were covered up in a determined way. From the top down everyone that benefited politically or monetarily joined the secret society that outright denied the rifles had problems and covered up anything to the contrary.

[Griff Murphey]

Coincidentally, I am reading The Gun by C.J. Chivers. With some background on the Gatlin and Maxim in the beginning, it delves into the development of the AK-47 and type 56. Then elaborates on the debacle that was the introduction of the M-16. The problems that the rifle had were covered up in a determined way. From the top down everyone that benefited politically or monetarily joined the secret society that outright denied the rifles had problems and covered up anything to the contrary.

I think it's an interesting book. As for his suggestion we would have been better off having an AK copy that seems a bit far fetched but he is probably right. The M-14 would have been a great rifle in the desert or in Europe, but I think he is right about it being too heavy and clumsy for Vietnam.

[Clark Howard]

The first three episodes have been mostly factual. The military has been portrayed as foolish boobs, forgetting, (or avoiding) the fact that we were under orders. The murder of Col. Dewey in 1945 was attributed to the Viet Minh, when it has been established that the Brits killed him on purpose. The idea that the war was unwinnable is reinforced every few minutes. The fact that Johnson fractured our effort and piece-mealed our forces, preventing the defeat of the North Vietnamese is politely skirted. I expect the whole series to turn out as cover for the perfidy and treason of the dems in power at the time, and Teddy. Regards, Clark

[clintonhater]

The M-14 would have been a great rifle in the desert or in Europe, but I think he is right about it being too heavy and clumsy for Vietnam.

Which was why it was replaced. But speaking of heavy and clumsy, there's at least one early photo of an ARVN soldier, weighing not much over 100lbs it appeared, shouldering a M1 rifle; an M1 or M2 carbine would seem a better choice for jungle fighting before M16s became available. Another photo shows what I think was supposed to be a VC aiming an '03 Springfield, and I don't mean 03A3! One problem with most historical documentaries is that they mix up photos taken in different decades because the photo editors are too ignorant to know better; what they could at least do is insert an approximate date into the corner of every photo or film clip.

[Clark Howard]

The ground forces in all four corps captured many, many, USGI weapons all through the war. The communist nations recycled every small arm they recovered, no matter its source. It seems that the VC and the NVA were amply supplied by the South Vietnam government and the ARVN. Our government has a history of arming countries that later prove to be our enemies. I once reported orange 50 cal tracers chasing my aircraft instead of commie green. The intel officer said the enemy had access to our weapons and ammo. Regards, Clark

[dave]

Taking nothing away from the vets who were there, it was a war we had no good reason to get into!

[Former Cav]

I have not watched it yet, but I WILL watch it as I am recording it on the DVR machine.

I can tell you that my tour of duty was no FUN. BUt I can also tell you that AFTER I got out of the Army, that is when the "Total SCR*WING" began.
Below is a response to a guy who wanted his son or other kid to receive a response to his question.

Names have been changed to protect the "innocent and the guilty as well"
I deleted the veterans groups that this was sent on as it was a "private sign in type group" where you had to have someone vouch for you BEFORE you could join.

HERe it is. Start at the bottom and read up. My response is immediately below this line.



________________________________________
From:vietnam@xxx.com On Behalf Of Bob
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 8:28 AM
To:
Subject: RE: Question About WINTER SOLDIER Hearings...

Mac,
I wasn’t with John Kerry (thankfully) so I can’t testify as to what he did do or did not do. I can tell you that where I was and the unit I was with did not commit any atrocities that I know of. Our daily schedule went something like this… Arise at 4 or 5 AM…if you arose in peace you had a chance to grab some c-rats, it you arose by being attacked ….forget about those c-rats….go like hell all day long….hump them boonies for days on end and never see another human being (thankfully) or if you did see another they were usually shooting at you. Again if it were a relatively non-combat day….eat some c-rats on top of the tank while doing a search and destroy. React to another unit who needs help…etc etc. Set up a night defensive position at dusk….now…even though we were an armored unit….if we were in war zones c or d or any other “bad” area, we’d actually dig in what we called “fighting positions” and to the grunt it was known as the good old fox hole. If we were lucky enough to not have to dig in, you’d have maybe 5 or 10 minutes before dark to write a note home. I used to use the box top of the c-rat box as a post card as a lot of times I did not have the luxury of stationery as it was on my last tank or apc which got blown away. So now it is dark, so you get to go out on an ambush patrol or a listening post. If you didn’t do that and stayed with the perimeter, then you got to pull guard duty for one or two hours. Whatever time was left over you got to sleep. That been said….now let me ask your son…..when did I have time to commit all these rapes and killings? My 2nd question to him is “where” were all these women that I was supposedly raping? I really can’t recall seeing too many women out in the jungle. We were pounding the bush most of the time. Sometimes we’d run a road at night to keep it from being mined…….again….where were all these women? Where were all the children that we supposedly killed?
Did John Kerry’s activities after he got out effect me? Definitely! I was literally harassed out of my first drafting job as my boss would ask me every morning “how did it feel to kill all those innocent women and children?” Back in 1971/2 they did not have “hostile work environment” rules! After about 4-1/2 months of this crap and nobody would even have a cup of coffee with me…the boss came up to me with his usual speel.. I told him “it felt absolutely great and you are next on my list…let’s go out into the parking lot and I will fix things right now!” Well he walked away with a big red face. A week later we had a factory shut down for inventory and I went looking for a job. The following Monday when I was to return to work….I did NOT, I called and said I’m not coming back. Did this affect me and my wife and my 2 year old son? Absolutely….they liked to eat like anyone else. I was lucky I still had my part time job from when I was going to school to be a draftsmen immediately before I got this crummy job.
After this….I was very selective as to who I told I was a vietnam veteran or not. It wasn’t until 1989 (20 years after I got out) that I “crawled out of the closet” and admitted to being a veteran.
I was treated like xxxx for 35 years at the Minneapolis VA as well.
In my humble opinion, Kerry and others like him did a lot of damage to a lot of innocent folks who already had enough bull chit to deal with in their lives. If anyone asked me about my fused knee on my left leg (it does not bend…that is from an RPG hit on my 3rd and last tank) I told them I got it in a car accident. I lost my left eye with a bb gun incident when I was a kid (that was from the first RPG that hit the tank) So now I was a liar as well ! After you tell one lie….eventually you have to tell another lie to cover up the first lie. It sucks to be a liar!
I was very mistreated and discriminated against a good part of my lifetime but I never bitched about it like all these minorities do. All these minorities and fringe groups have all these special privileges. In Minneapolis, they have a gay rights parade.. Tell me….when is the last time they had a combat veterans parade? How about NEVER!
I have a friend who is a Minnesota state trooper as well as being a Vietnam vet. He told me to get rid of my purple heart license plates (this was 1990 or there abouts). I asked why. He said I am a target as police will figure I am a drunk that just came out of a legion or VFW club. I got rid of the plates and sure as hell, I quit getting pulled over. What a good deal this is….right? So there are still people out there that hate veterans!
You can tell your son for me….I have 3 purple hearts and 2 of them are from schrapnel wounds from RPGs the other is from a homemade VC grenade. I never shot, killed, raped, or mistreated any women or child. I did shoot and kill whoever was shooting at me or who ever had just killed some of my best friends.
I have a “memoir” of sorts that I wrote a long time ago and I do not wish to make it public. If you want your son to see it, email me back channel and give me your email address and I will email it to you. I can tell you that it sucks because it deals with being in a hospital after getting shot up as well. It is not really a “fun read” nor was it a “fun life”.
Sincerely
Cav (the other Bob)



________________________________________
From:
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 5:26 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Question About WINTER SOLDIER Hearings...

Mac,

Don't know of a specific site but I know they are out there and some of the members will, I am sure. Have you suggested that your son talk one to one with a few people that were actually in Viet Nam? Face to face talking is a powerful way to learn.

M

her@xxxxx.net> wrote:
OUr son has decided that Kerry and the others at the Winter Soldiers
Hearing spoke nothing but the truth.
I stated that several of those who were there and testified turned out
not to have been in the Service; and those who were, many were
stationed elsewhere than Vietnam; and several who claimed a direct
knowledge/participation in alleged atrocities were stationed NOT where
they claimed.
I mentioned that Senator Mark Hatfield requested an investigation and
the result of that was, as above.
Unfortunately, our son is under the sway of "The Drunken Philosopher"
who preaches a wonderful game but does not practice what he asks
others to do... this character claims Vietnam was rediculous, that it
was criminal... etc., etc.
You get the picture.

would any of you have some site where I might obtain specific

[John Sukey]

Ask the Swift boat veterans what they think of Kerry!

[Griff Murphey]

My junior year in high school '65-'66 the army took away our Army JROTC M-1 Carbines and as far as I know sent them to Vietnam.

[Vern Humphrey]

The first three episodes have been mostly factual. The military has been portrayed as foolish boobs, forgetting, (or avoiding) the fact that we were under orders. The murder of Col. Dewey in 1945 was attributed to the Viet Minh, when it has been established that the Brits killed him on purpose. The idea that the war was unwinnable is reinforced every few minutes. The fact that Johnson fractured our effort and piece-mealed our forces, preventing the defeat of the North Vietnamese is politely skirted. I expect the whole series to turn out as cover for the perfidy and treason of the dems in power at the time, and Teddy. Regards, Clark

You nailed it.

[Former Cav]

Well, the dems and you might include Nixon LOST that "skirmish" in Vietnam. Remember : there was WORLD WAR II, the Korean "conflict" and the Vietnam "experience". <-- SAID with great sarcasm!

W BUSH did not impress me with his LOSING either. LETS face it, NONE of these politicians have been fighting to WIN!! Hopefully Mr. Trump will change that!

I don't care if you are playing football, checkers, chess or a WAR, if you are playing DEFENSE....the best you can hope for is a DRAW!
What ever happened to WINNING!!

I'd love to see some of these politicians KIDS on the FRONT LINE in a COMBAT UNIT! See if there is a change in attitudes !!

[leftyo]

finally seen an episode last night. while there is some good stuff, there is definately a one sided lean to it.

[Vern Humphrey]

Which was why it was replaced. But speaking of heavy and clumsy, there's at least one early photo of an ARVN soldier, weighing not much over 100lbs it appeared, shouldering a M1 rifle; an M1 or M2 carbine would seem a better choice for jungle fighting before M16s became available. Another photo shows what I think was supposed to be a VC aiming an '03 Springfield, and I don't mean 03A3! One problem with most historical documentaries is that they mix up photos taken in different decades because the photo editors are too ignorant to know better; what they could at least do is insert an approximate date into the corner of every photo or film clip.

My first tour as an Adviser, the ARVN used the M1 rifle. We Advisers were issued the M2 carbine -- what a miserable piece of @@#&%! Mime got wrapped around a tree, and I "borrowed" am M1 from the ARVN and carried that the rest of my tour.

The M1 was heavy, it's true. But my belief is that an M1 and enough ammunition to accomplish a mission weighs less than an M16 and enough ammo to accomplish the same mission. For one thing, in combat, people tend to hide behind things. The M1 will shoot THROUGH stuff -- logs, dirt berms and so on.

[PWC]

First off, let me say I never got to serve in Viet Nam. That being said, I have a 21 year career, 12 of which were in Special Ops before there was a recognized title of Special Ops. The best history of Viet Nam I have ever found was written by Stanley Karnow in 1983. Six hundred and seventy pages of insight into Viet Nam. Rise of Ho Chi Minh and Giap, thru the ins and outs of the French and American political struggles and the real day to day struggles of the soldiers on both sides. All this without being filtered thru the eye of Hollywood.

Discussion with my friends that did serve tends to validate this story. Not as intense as "We Were Soldiers Once...And Young", but if you like military history, it's a good read.

[Vern Humphrey]

You want to know what Viet Nam was like?

It's like seeing your bones sticking through your skin. It's like tasting and smelling your own blood. It's like looking into the faces of your dead, so you can check the block that says "Positive Identification," and knowing you could have done better and they'd still be alive. It's like learning about some nasty little xxxxs who thought it was funny to tell your pregnant wife they hoped you'd be killed.

[Former Cav]

It's like learning about some nasty little xxxxs who thought it was funny to tell your pregnant wife they hoped you'd be killed.

I had a high school buddy tell me to my face at a new years eve party in 1970 that it was too bad I didn't get killed.
I was in the state of shock when he said that to me. I didn't respond to him saying that at all as I was in so much disbelief that I even heard that.

[S.A. Boggs]

I had a high school buddy tell me to my face at a new years eve party in 1970 that it was too bad I didn't get killed.
I was in the state of shock when he said that to me. I didn't respond to him saying that at all as I was in so much disbelief that I even heard that.
I commend you on your restraint, I would have had none. I would have spit in his eye and invited him outside.
Sam

[Vern Humphrey]

I had a high school buddy tell me to my face at a new years eve party in 1970 that it was too bad I didn't get killed.
I was in the state of shock when he said that to me. I didn't respond to him saying that at all as I was in so much disbelief that I even heard that.

In ancient times, there was a monument at Thermopylae, where the 300 Spartans died. The inscription read, "Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their law."

Let that be our motto, "Go tell the Spartans."

[clintonhater]

In ancient times, there was a monument at Thermopylae, where the 300 Spartans died. The inscription read, "Go tell the Spartans that we lie here, obedient to their law."

Let that be our motto, "Go tell the Spartans."

When that monument was erected, the natural presumption was that the Spartans, every single one, CARED about their sacrifice. Here & now, many still do, but the feeling is far from universal; ask the nearest Love Trumps Hate protestor.

(By the way, who told the Plateans? A thousand from the small city of Platea refused to retreat with the other Greeks, and died side by side with the Spartans.)

[PWC]

No, Vern, I didn,t say i wanted to know what it wa like in VN. I meant to reply to the comments about the Burns series on PBS about VN and the Hollywood "version" version of the war.

I had been reading the first hand accounts of my Combat Controllers at Kham Duc, Katum, and Khe Sanh. They were unfiltered, and not cleaned up. While I may not have had the combat veteran experience I knew and lived with those that did. Today, if asked when they were in VN, many would say "last night".

[Vern Humphrey]

When that monument was erected, the natural presumption was that the Spartans, every single one, CARED about their sacrifice. Here & now, many still do, but the feeling is far from universal; ask the nearest Love Trumps Hate protestor.

(By the way, who told the Plateans? A thousand from the small city of Platea refused to retreat with the other Greeks, and died side by side with the Spartans.)

I believe the Plateans died at the Battle of Platea the next year.

[clintonhater]

I believe the Plateans died at the Battle of Platea the next year.

You're right--it was contingents from the cities of Thesbia & Thebes who stayed with the Spartans. Nevertheless, the smaller number of Spartans got all the glory; pretty much the way the world usually operates.

Wiki: "Many of the Greek contingents then either chose to withdraw (without orders) or were ordered to leave by Leonidas (Herodotus admits that there is some doubt about which actually happened).[95][97] The contingent of 700 Thespians, led by their general Demophilus, refused to leave and committed themselves to the fight.[98] Also present were the 400 Thebans and probably the helots who had accompanied the Spartans.[94]

[Vern Humphrey]

You're right--it was contingents from the cities of Thesbia & Thebes who stayed with the Spartans. Nevertheless, the smaller number of Spartans got all the glory; pretty much the way the world usually operates.

Wiki: "Many of the Greek contingents then either chose to withdraw (without orders) or were ordered to leave by Leonidas (Herodotus admits that there is some doubt about which actually happened).[95][97] The contingent of 700 Thespians, led by their general Demophilus, refused to leave and committed themselves to the fight.[98] Also present were the 400 Thebans and probably the helots who had accompanied the Spartans.[94]

And as a wise man once said, "What is important about the Alamo, Massada and Thermopylae is the story, not the reality."

[S.A. Boggs]

One thing I have never understood is guy's who won't stand when it is right, not politically correct. I am not a brave guy but I won't back down when I have needed to. Many times when working with some of my clients I often wondered what they would do. One was ticked off in general with a large butcher knife in reach it wasn't in reach very long I tell you. My hat is off to you guys who have seen the elephant, I was scared being in the regional jail.:icon_redface:
Sam

[Griff Murphey]

I have not watched all of every episode but I will say it's interesting. I think to some extent they hand picked the Veterans they interviewed looking for guys who got active in the anti war movement later. They have had one guy who ran off to Canada and described it as the "bravest thing I ever did." Hmm.

Interesting new to me footage on Kent State. The Nat. Guard was sure passing out armloads of pump shotguns and digging shells out of red and green Remington Express commercial ammo. I learned that one of the four kids killed was an ROTC scholarship student who was just an onlooker.

You can sure see the deterioration of the Army in appearance of personnel and installations by the 1970 time frame. Quite a difference from the very STRAC troops who first arrived. The Marines were affected too but not as badly.

Definitely left leaning but worth looking at, IMO.

[clintonhater]

I have not watched all of every episode but I will say it's interesting...

And this was YOUR topic? Only during the last two episodes have I found it necessary to get up and do something else while scenes of anti-war scumbags are being shown, or the uproar at the Demo convention in Chicago (all of which I watched on TV while it was happening, loving every min because it was hurting their candidate). Don't know how much more I can stand, however, as the hopelessness of the situation beginning with Nixon's pullout is just too depressing to watch.

[Griff Murphey]

And this was YOUR topic? Only during the last two episodes have I found it necessary to get up and do something else while scenes of anti-war scumbags are being shown, or the uproar at the Demo convention in Chicago (all of which I watched on TV while it was happening, loving every min because it was hurting their candidate). Don't know how much more I can stand, however, as the hopelessness of the situation beginning with Nixon's pullout is just too depressing to watch.

I have thought a bit about your response and how to respond or even if I should respond. Started to say I didn't produce it, I just reported my thoughts on it. Whether we who lived through it like it or not, this series will probably stand as the only comprehensive video version of the entire war to be available and will certainly define the thoughts our grandchildren will have about Vietnam. Much in the same way VICTORY AT SEA sort of defined WW-2 (at least the Navy part of it). I agree it's a lot to take in at once and at times gets overwhelming.

[togor]

The thing that jumps out at me from the series is that the guys in charge even early on knew this was going to be trouble but for one reason or another couldn't come to a decisive moment. All this well before the public view of the war changed.

[dryheat]

I remember someone who was present talking later about the Bay of Pigs decision . He said, if one person had stood up and said No, this is a bad idea, it might have changed the outcome.

[oscars]

Togor:
Read "Dereliction of Duty" by H.R. McMaster to see the description of leadership failures.

[clintonhater]

Togor:
Read "Dereliction of Duty" by H.R. McMaster to see the description of leadership failures.

Pointed out more than once was that it's usually the tendency of military leaders to "fight the last war." But our leaders hadn't even learned the lessons of WWII, when Germany & Japan were pounded into rubble without "breaking their will to resist," as Johnson kept talking about doing in the North. It took TWO A-bombs to finally break Japan's will to resist! So how could it ever have been conceived that bombing the North, ruled by do-or-die fanatics even more indifferent to civilian deaths than the leaders of Germany & Japan, was ever going to work, short of using nukes?

[Vern Humphrey]

Pointed out more than once was that it's usually the tendency of military leaders to "fight the last war." But our leaders hadn't even learned the lessons of WWII, when Germany & Japan were pounded into rubble without "breaking their will to resist," as Johnson kept talking about doing in the North. It took TWO A-bombs to finally break Japan's will to resist! So how could it ever have been conceived that bombing the North, ruled by do-or-die fanatics even more indifferent to civilian deaths than the leaders of Germany & Japan, was ever going to work, short of using nukes?

But a good part of the problem wasn't the military leaders -- it was Johnson and MacNamara. The military leaders were at fault in not standing up and saying, "This isn't going to work."

[2flasargent]

My experiences have been different. I grew up in a small Pa. town. Most older men were WW2 vets and it was assumed that if you were my age and weren't going to College you went in the military. Viet Nam for me was enlisting in the Navy in '67 and one tour on the gun line on a DD. Lots of lost sleep, 7 month cruise, and a few days coming and going in Olongopo. when I went home on leave I wore my uniform to Church and actually on a date or two, no problems and positive interest expressed. So the entire country wasn't negative. I stayed in until 1990, and we lived in predominantly military towns. I never had a real problem with harassment. A few name calling incidents I blew off. In one airport restroom a long haired punk was being an idiot when a couple young marines upended him in a toilet for a swirley. Cop walked in and walked right back out. I heard many incidents from friends in other parts of the country enough to realize I was the exception. I've avoided the series, thinking it was left wing garbage. Truly unfortunate that as someone said this will be the 'definitive' story of Viet Nam.

[ikesdad]

I remember Vietnam. I don't need to watch the same old leftist BS on TV.

[fjruple]

The ground forces in all four corps captured many, many, USGI weapons all through the war. The communist nations recycled every small arm they recovered, no matter its source. It seems that the VC and the NVA were amply supplied by the South Vietnam government and the ARVN. Our government has a history of arming countries that later prove to be our enemies. I once reported orange 50 cal tracers chasing my aircraft instead of commie green. The intel officer said the enemy had access to our weapons and ammo. Regards, Clark

Clark--

a lot of the US made arms that were used against us initially came from Lend Lease Arms provided to the Nationalist Chinese, French and other countries in WWII. The VC like the Chinese and Russian never throw arms away. They used a lot of German arms captured by the Soviet and eastern block countries as well. We also initially provided arms to the Viet Minh in WWII through the OSS. I can only imagine how much stuff we left in Vietnam after our involvement there.

--fjruple

[Clark Howard]

The countries of Indochina, Vietnam included, have been the object of greed and envy for centuries. This was caused by the very productive agricultural output of an agrarian population and a weak government. China, Japan, France, Britain, and others have imposed their wills on the Vietnamese because they wanted the food produced there. The population was only capable of weak resistance for most of that time. The United States made a grave error when it decided to allow the French colonials to re-establish their iron control of Vietnam in 1945, after the country was re-taken from the Japanese. Had we assisted Ho Chi Minh in establishing a government, we could have removed Vietnam from the communist sphere of influence, and avoided a costly war. With our help, Vietnam could have moved into the 20th century as a friend of the United States. Despite all of this, the largest employers in Vietnam are U.S. firms. One bad decision in 1945 delayed the inevitable result for over 60 years. On the other hand, we established many thousands of fish ponds there for use by the Vietnamese. Regards, Clark

[Vern Humphrey]

I remember Vietnam. I don't need to watch the same old leftist BS on TV.

Same here. I know the sound, smell and pain. I know what it's like to see your bones poking through your skin. I don't need some Jane Fonda type to tell me what it was like.

[Vern Humphrey]

Clark--

a lot of the US made arms that were used against us initially came from Lend Lease Arms provided to the Nationalist Chinese, French and other countries in WWII. The VC like the Chinese and Russian never throw arms away. They used a lot of German arms captured by the Soviet and eastern block countries as well. We also initially provided arms to the Viet Minh in WWII through the OSS. I can only imagine how much stuff we left in Vietnam after our involvement there.

--fjruple

In '67 I took a Browning Hi-Power out of the hand of a dead NVA lieutenant. It still had the Canadian decal on it -- made by Inglis and shipped to the Nationalist Chinese.

[S.A. Boggs]

In '67 I took a Browning Hi-Power out of the hand of a dead NVA lieutenant. It still had the Canadian decal on it -- made by Inglis and shipped to the Nationalist Chinese.
Did the P-35 disappear?:icon_scratch:
Sam

[Vern Humphrey]

Did the P-35 disappear?:icon_scratch:
Sam

Unfortunately, it did -- needed "for intelligence purposes.' The barrel was rusted out, anyway -- corrosive primers and jungles don't go together.

[sid]

So far I have watched the first 3 episodes. I absolutely cannot get over the actions of General Westmoreland. He seemed to have no idea at all as to what he was doing. In the last episode that I saw he launched an attack on hill 385 which had no military value at all. Our troops were ambushed and suffered devastating casualties. The last straw came when one of our planes dropped a bomb which immediately killed 42 Marines. If I remember correctly only 26 men of the original assault force survived and every one of these was wounded.

His basic idea of establishing isolated outposts all over the country was a repetition of French strategy and ended with the same result. These outposts were encircled by the NVA, pounded continuously by their artillery and suffered enormous casualties to which Westmoreland seemed totally indifferent.

I would welcome other opinions on Westmoreland, especially from guys who were there.

[Vern Humphrey]

I have no particular brief for Westmoreland, but:

"he launched an attack on hill 385 which had no military value at all" -- the value was, the enemy was there. The whole essence of warfare is to find, fix and destroy the enemy.

"Our troops were ambushed" -- that's the tactical commander's responsibility.

"one of our planes dropped a bomb which immediately killed 42 Marines" -- unless Westmoreland was the pilot of that aircraft, you can't blame him for that.

"These outposts were encircled by the NVA, pounded continuously by their artillery" -- not really. Outposts like Con Thien (I was there), Khe Sanh, and so on forced the enemy to concentrate his forces, where they were highly vulnerable to OUR artillery and airpower.

"His basic idea of establishing isolated outposts all over the country was a repetition of French strategy" -- no, it was not. It was basically the same strategy we used to fight the Indian wars.

[S.A. Boggs]

I have no particular brief for Westmoreland, but:

"he launched an attack on hill 385 which had no military value at all" -- the value was, the enemy was there. The whole essence of warfare is to find, fix and destroy the enemy.

"Our troops were ambushed" -- that's the tactical commander's responsibility.

"one of our planes dropped a bomb which immediately killed 42 Marines" -- unless Westmoreland was the pilot of that aircraft, you can't blame him for that.

"These outposts were encircled by the NVA, pounded continuously by their artillery" -- not really. Outposts like Con Thien (I was there), Khe Sanh, and so on forced the enemy to concentrate his forces, where they were highly vulnerable to OUR artillery and airpower.

"His basic idea of establishing isolated outposts all over the country was a repetition of French strategy" -- no, it was not. It was basically the same strategy we used to fight the Indian wars.
Correct me if I am wrong, wasn't B-52's used with success around some of our posts, as well as C-47 gunships?
Sam

[Vern Humphrey]

Correct me if I am wrong, wasn't B-52's used with success around some of our posts, as well as C-47 gunships?
Sam

Absolutely! It was B52s that put an end to the Tunnels of Ch Chi. It was B52s that broke the "siege" of Khe Sahn. We used them regularly.

"Spooky" was first a C-47 with Gatling guns shooting out the left side and later a C-130, which included a 105mm howitzer. At the battle of Lone Khan (I was at Xuan Loc, division headquarters) a C-47 Spooky shot up all its ammunition, then landed on the airfield under fire to pick up wounded.

[JohnPeeff]

I agree Burns "cherry-picked" the vets for their anti-war views, they are not representative of the ones I know. I guess it was easy for some to fall for the victim syndrome when the "baby killer" didn't work. I was disgusted when the marine made light of Jane Fonda, she should have been tried and convicted of treason(in my humble opinion) Unfortunately I agree this will become what people think is the definitive story of the war. RVN 67-68 3/48th Inf. 18th Recon Co. 2/5 Cav 18th Div ARVN

[Vern Humphrey]

You were an Adviser to 3/48 ARVN Infantry? I was an Adviser to 4/48 at Ap Dung Dap in '66 was also at 18th Div HQ at Xuan Loc in '67.

[JohnPeeff]

Yes Dec67-Dec68