Vegas

[Ken The Kanuck]

I feel so bad for the victims and families.

Terrible pain and grief for a person to impose on innocent people.

KTK

[Oyaji]

Bad news.........

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/02/las-vegas-shooting-at-least-50-dead-more-than-400-injured-in-massacre.html

[RED]

More pain for everybody!

I know nothing about this shooter, but there a few common denominators all of these nut jobs do not have. They seldom if ever have a steady job, they rarely if ever have a marriage, a family, or car insurance. They do not follow societal "norms." They are perverts, and malcontents that do not take any credit for their own actions that helped create their sorry life style.

This particular shooter will likely turn out to be a fan of the NFL kneelers. He is likely to be of mixed race and a hater of the flag and the anthem who picks and chooses which laws apply to him.

We will see what unfolds...

[leftyo]

More pain for everybody!

I know nothing about this shooter, but there a few common denominators all of these nut jobs do not have. They seldom if ever have a steady job, they rarely if ever have a marriage, a family, or car insurance. They do not follow societal "norms." They are perverts, and malcontents that do not take any credit for their own actions that helped create their sorry life style.

This particular shooter will likely turn out to be a fan of the NFL kneelers. He is likely to be of mixed race and a hater of the flag and the anthem who picks and chooses which laws apply to him.

We will see what unfolds...

your as bad as togar making crap up.

[JB White]

Nobody knows jack squat at this time aside from it was a shooting and a lot of victims. Most everything we are hearing now is coming from the gossip generator and being run through the rumor mill.

Just clicked on a link for the "latest update" and found myself at the CNN website. Their latest and greatest is only the scraps of what was released hours ago.
*edit* Unsubstantiated...Some ISIS goofball called in claiming the shooter was converted to Islam and carried it out in their name. So, ISIS and our politicians are already dancing on the bodies of the victims to further their own agendas. Who's jumping onboard next?

[dryheat]

Guess I won't be watching the news for about two days.

[Liam]

I tuned out this AM after the Today Show informed me that an AR-15 is an adaptation of the M1. Also, that as a gun owner, my rights are protected by the NRA (not the 2nd amendment). I will tune back in once some true facts are discovered.

[S.A. Boggs]

I am just wondering if it is not possible that he had a neurological disorder I.E. a disease of the mind to have this illogical thought patter. Was he on some type of anti-depressant or is it that there is no reason. I have often asked the severe mentally ill why they did it and often the answer was that they had no answer. More then once I have sat in the psych hospital with a person who had done something with no viable reason why...often I got just a blank stare. Had a woman who wanted to kill herself and could not explain to me why she wanted to do this act. Eventually she completed the act and nothing we in the mental health field could, short of permeant commitment, do to stop her. People are in fear and are demanding an immediate reason why this act happened. Do we lock "certain" people in psych units, take liberties away in the hopes of preventing something, continue to divide because one side or another is trying to push a certain agenda. " I have the idea to stop this and we take away this liberty to stop this from ever happening again!" "Gun owners need to be required to keep their guns locked up at all times or go to jail." "As responsible gun owners we need to keep our guns locked up!" You get the drift of what we gun owners will face in the days ahead and from people who own firearms. Reminds me of what Ben Franklin said over 200 years ago.
Sam

[S.A. Boggs]

I tuned out this AM after the Today Show informed me that an AR-15 is an adaptation of the M1. Also, that as a gun owner, my rights are protected by the NRA (not the 2nd amendment). I will tune back in once some true facts are discovered.
News people are the best sources of news, this is what THEY want America to believe. Remember CNN said "battleships" were enroute to help Texas!

[Sandpebble]

I am just wondering if it is not possible that he had a neurological disorder I.E. a disease of the mind to have this illogical thought patter. Was he on some type of anti-depressant or is it that there is no reason. I have often asked the severe mentally ill why they did it and often the answer was that they had no answer. More then once I have sat in the psych hospital with a person who had done something with no viable reason why...often I got just a blank stare. Had a woman who wanted to kill herself and could not explain to me why she wanted to do this act. Eventually she completed the act and nothing we in the mental health field could, short of permeant commitment, do to stop her. People are in fear and are demanding an immediate reason why this act happened. Do we lock "certain" people in psych units, take liberties away in the hopes of preventing something, continue to divide because one side or another is trying to push a certain agenda. " I have the idea to stop this and we take away this liberty to stop this from ever happening again!" "Gun owners need to be required to keep their guns locked up at all times or go to jail." "As responsible gun owners we need to keep our guns locked up!" You get the drift of what we gun owners will face in the days ahead and from people who own firearms. Reminds me of what Ben Franklin said over 200 years ago.
Sam

Sam... everytime I've mentioned here at Culvers "we" as gun owners, need to be responsible for our fire arms.... responsible for their use and the safety of any one in their proximity.....

.... I've had my ass handed to me and labeled an anti gunner.

[Ken The Kanuck]

Sam... everytime I've mentioned here at Culvers "we" as gun owners, need to be responsible for our fire arms.... responsible for their use and the safety of any one in their proximity.....

.... I've had my ass handed to me and labeled an anti gunner.

Unfortunately we (collective for us people) are always looking for something easy to blame acts like this upon. Guns, knives, cars, etc. I believe we need to look deeper and try to understand why someone would want to cause this much pain to others? That will not be an easy answer.

KTK

[S.A. Boggs]

Sam... everytime I've mentioned here at Culvers "we" as gun owners, need to be responsible for our fire arms.... responsible for their use and the safety of any one in their proximity.....

.... I've had my ass handed to me and labeled an anti gunner.
In no way, shape, or form do I have or currently believe you are anti-gun. I, like you, safeguard my "friends" to keep people from them. Today I went to Tractor Supply to reprice safe's. The theory being the large the safe the more "friends" that I can have. Personally, I would like to see a mandatory ten year federal sentence for each act of theft involving any firearm. I am not saying possession, I am saying the actual act of stealing the firearm. People can have a stolen firearm and have obtained it from a legal source.
Sam

[RED]

So far it looks like my predictions are mostly wrong... But the whys and wherefores are still not known. I think it is going to be related to the kneel downs and the fact that just minutes before the shooting started, the band and the audience were singing God Bless America.

[Allen]

So far all I've read is that he was a gambler, lived in a nice house, owns 2 planes and is a pilot. His father however was a bank robber wanted by the FBI. Perhaps that's how this dude had all this nice stuff in the first place.

[m1ashooter]

He is an accountant. We must ban all accountants.

[tmark]

I heard from the news and the sound of the shooting that the perp had a full automatic weapon. Are people legally allowed to have such weapons in Vegas?

[dryheat]

So far it looks like my predictions are mostly wrong... But the whys and wherefores are still not known. I think it is going to be related to the kneel downs and the fact that just minutes before the shooting started, the band and the audience were singing God Bless America.

But your are right for the majority of weirdo shooters. That would be white shooters. The mid-easteners have their own agenda. The common denonminator is, they are miserable human beings that wallow in their sorrow and then lash out. The kneelers don't really figure into this. This guy was angry long before that.
S.A. Boggs, generally you figure out a way to turn the subject around to your own situation and history.
The guy was a Loser, that means he was betting his future on gambling. His father was a bank robber, yes. Maybe there is a genetic connection there.
There was a cop(atten:.Boggs) that was playing big. He bet the farm(no doubt, in an angry way) and lost. He pulled out his sidearm and shot himself in the head right at the table. That's anger. That's Vegas. Have you even seen the underside of the place? I have, it's creepy.

[jsaviano]

The "libs" are going to come down real hard on all of us & the NRA & the Repubs. Gonna be a "food fight" in Congress.

[RED]

I heard from the news and the sound of the shooting that the perp had a full automatic weapon. Are people legally allowed to have such weapons in Vegas?

You are wrong, THESE WERE NOT FULLY AUTOMATIC WEAPONS. Yes, it is legal for LV citizens to own full automatic weapons. AS long as they can legally own non full auto guns. A legal full automatic, gun, manufactured and registered in or before 1986 machine gun can be owned in most of the U.S. But did you know that a legal M-16 rifle requires an extensive background check plus $25,000 or more.

This guy was using what is called a bump or slide fire gun. It is a regular semi auto gun that has a device attached to it that allows the shooter to use the recoil of the rifle to pull the trigger over and over at an incredible. Do a Google and look up "bump"fire or "slide" fire. Plenty of video is available.

There are pictures on the internet showing two of the guns used with the devices attached.

Here is the link. http://www.fox25boston.com/news/what-is-a-bump-stock-and-how-does-it-work/618810901

[Dick Hosmer]

Disclaimer: 80 years old, *no military service (other than that I chose ROTC over gym in HS), have never fired a full-auto weapon, *not into the "black rifle culture", but am an outspoken 2A supporter, Benefactor NRA Life member, voted for Trump and would again, etc. Having said that:

F**k the libs.

However, why do we not - proactively for a change - make some moves?

(1) How about the NRA proposes a national law banning "bump-stocks". They were created for ONE purpose only - to "legally" skirt the full-auto issue. There is absolutely no justification - in my opinion - for their existence. Yes, they are "fun", but I think we are going to have to consider that losing a bit of "fun" is better than losing everything, ala Australia, etc.

(2) Magazine size - let's get reasonable (yes, I know, bad word) and cap it at 20 rounds, period, nation-wide. Basically for the same reason as above. Any new mag law should specifically exempt all .22RF arms. "Magazine dump" may be a colorful statement, but it really has no place in civilian firearms usage.

(3) Let's clean up the language about "sawed-off shotguns" - and address the end result. If it is illegal for Billy Bob to whack one in his garage, then it should be illegal for an arms manufacturer to produce and sell basically the same thing. I would think that the end objective would be to keep such very short arms off the street, no matter who makes them.

I could go on an on, but the above will produce enough flaming for awhile.




*those alone will, sadly, alienate many here.

[Dick Hosmer]

Disclaimer: 80 years old, *no military service (other than that I chose ROTC over gym in HS), have never fired a full-auto weapon, *not into the "black rifle culture", but am an outspoken 2A supporter, Benefactor NRA Life member, voted for Trump and would again, etc. Having said that:

F**k the libs.

However, why do we not - proactively for a change - make some moves?

(1) How about the NRA proposes a national law banning "bump-stocks". They were created for ONE purpose only - to "legally" skirt the full-auto issue. There is absolutely no justification - in my opinion - for their existence. Yes, they are "fun", but I think we are going to have to consider that losing a bit of "fun" is better than losing everything, ala Australia, etc.

(2) Magazine size - let's get reasonable (yes, I know, bad word) and cap it at 20 rounds, period, nation-wide. Basically for the same reason as above. Any new mag law should specifically exempt all .22RF arms. "Magazine dump" may be a colorful statement, but it really has no place in civilian firearms usage.

(3) Let's clean up the language about "sawed-off shotguns" - and address the end result. If it is illegal for Billy Bob to whack one in his garage, then it should be illegal for an arms manufacturer to produce and sell basically the same thing. I would think that the end objective would be to keep such very short arms off the street, no matter who makes them.

I could go on an on, but the above will produce enough flaming for awhile.




*those alone will, sadly, alienate many here.

[blackhawknj]

No compromising the RKBA/2A. If the assailant had chosen arson for his MO, used flammable materials, created panic-think of the Cocoanut Grove Fire in 1942 or the Happy Land Fire in 1990-where would the demands for bans be ? What could be banned ? Australia-No RKBA, basically an authoritarian government with a democratic veneer. We are different.

[togor]

No compromising the RKBA/2A. If the assailant had chosen arson for his MO, used flammable materials, created panic-think of the Cocoanut Grove Fire in 1942 or the Happy Land Fire in 1990-where would the demands for bans be ? What could be banned ? Australia-No RKBA, basically an authoritarian government with a democratic veneer. We are different.

We have building codes, sprinklers and the like. So by your example, you agree with Dick even as you suggest otherwise.

[blackhawknj]

One of the clauses in the Contract with America in 1994 was that Congress would live by the same laws they passed for the rest of us. It was revealed that several Congressional office building did not adhere to building codes-one had no sprinklers.
What features firearms have should be dictated by consumers and purchasers. I do not care for aluminum or polymer frames-Glocks, e.g. But if other people want them....

[togor]

Perhaps the problem Dick senses is that this guy unveiled a whole new low-cost way of creating mayhem in our society. I'm sure the "Allah Akbar" guys took notice. Columbine changed school security, and twelve guys with box cutters forced a rewrite of aviation security and our foreign policy. How many open air venues in this country have high rise hotels next door looking down on them?

The concert promoters and hotel company may escape liability this time by arguing that the attack could not be reasonably forseen. But that argument is hereafter gone, and if something like this happens again....

[S.A. Boggs]

Does society mandate bullet proof glass in all public buildings taller then one story, "frisking" everyone who enters a hotel lobby? Does American society now want/need/desire some type of "people" control to move about. It wouldn't be that difficult with computers and credit type cards to restrict movement of "suspicious" people. Want food, slide your card or gas or a ticket to anywhere. Present your I.D. or no dice...sound familiar?

[Dan Shapiro]

Dick, I think you're preaching to the choir.

Yeah. Some will object and oppose. But at least it would be nice to have a discussion, rather than a MANDATE from the liberal elite, who don't have a freaking clue as to what the hell they're talking about. Not that that has ever stopped them!

[Griff Murphey]

The bump fire stocks and the Atlkinson ratchet crank things were approved by the ATF beginning in the 1990's. I rather think when they approved them it was with the idea that "...if we give these guys enough rope, they will hang themselves..."

I agree with Dick that we - the NRA - ought to ask for a ban on any add-on device to accelerate rate of fire of any semi automatic firearm. Be proactive and get it done.

Let me be clear not only a ban on manufacture but a ban on possession.

[dobek]

You ban parts people crack me up

If you will commit the Ultimate crime (murder) - do you think a misdemeanor (or felony) charge of "scary part" is going to stop someone from killing?

You are way out of reality.....

There is NO LAW which will stop a nut.

So let's punish 350 million people that didn't go berserk because of 1 that did.

Why is it when a terrorist kills with a car or knife, no one wants to ban them. Why are we told not to blame the religion - blame the person, yet the first thing we do with a shooting is blame the tool.

I know..... let's ban murder..... there, problem solved.

Steve

[leftyo]

You ban parts people crack me up

If you will commit the Ultimate crime (murder) - do you think a misdemeanor (or felony) charge of "scary part" is going to stop someone from killing?

You are way out of reality.....

There is NO LAW which will stop a nut.

So let's punish 350 million people that didn't go berserk because of 1 that did.

Why is it when a terrorist kills with a car or knife, no one wants to ban them. Why are we told not to blame the religion - blame the person, yet the first thing we do with a shooting is blame the tool.

I know..... let's ban murder..... there, problem solved.

Steve

well said.

[JimF]

. . . . . .

However, why do we not - proactively for a change - make some moves?

(1) How about the NRA proposes a national law banning "bump-stocks". They were created for ONE purpose only - to "legally" skirt the full-auto issue. There is absolutely no justification - in my opinion - for their existence. Yes, they are "fun", but I think we are going to have to consider that losing a bit of "fun" is better than losing everything, ala Australia, etc.

(2) Magazine size - let's get reasonable (yes, I know, bad word) and cap it at 20 rounds, period, nation-wide. Basically for the same reason as above. Any new mag law should specifically exempt all .22RF arms. "Magazine dump" may be a colorful statement, but it really has no place in civilian firearms usage.

(3) Let's clean up the language about "sawed-off shotguns" - and address the end result. If it is illegal for Billy Bob to whack one in his garage, then it should be illegal for an arms manufacturer to produce and sell basically the same thing. I would think that the end objective would be to keep such very short arms off the street, no matter who makes them.

I could go on an on, but the above will produce enough flaming for awhile.




*those alone will, sadly, alienate many here.

I have to agree with you, Richard . . . .

I just handled the new Remington offering of their "sawed-off" 870 "other weapon" (They don't call it a shotgun) at my local gun shop.

After I handled it, I asked the clerk "What does one do with it?"

To me, it is a useless weapon . . . .

To serve the same purpose, a conventional stocked, short-barelled 870, offers much better control when the stock is UNDER the arm, held against the side of my body.

I predict this weapon will die a quick death! I bet Remington pulls it after lousy sales (Much like their old "electronic ignition" M700 rifle)

I swear, Richard, a lot of the time lately, I believe we are our own worst enemy!! --Jim

[S.A. Boggs]

If we look around in our daily lives I often wonder why is that? Does society really need vehicles that go faster then 70? Do we really need to produce all those cell phones that do more then just call? Do we really need...get the picture I am trying to paint. Ban "high capacity" magazines, semi-auto firearms, "sniper" scopes that go on rifles. "If Daniel Boone could use a muzzle loader that is good enough for today's hunter's!" "I use a double barrel who needs more shots then that?" "Only police and the Army need handguns!" Take your pick, yea someone on "our" side will say one of the above. How about we give Progressives what they really want and that is "people" control.
Sam

[togor]

You ban parts people crack me up

If you will commit the Ultimate crime (murder) - do you think a misdemeanor (or felony) charge of "scary part" is going to stop someone from killing?

You are way out of reality.....

There is NO LAW which will stop a nut.

So let's punish 350 million people that didn't go berserk because of 1 that did.

Why is it when a terrorist kills with a car or knife, no one wants to ban them. Why are we told not to blame the religion - blame the person, yet the first thing we do with a shooting is blame the tool.

I know..... let's ban murder..... there, problem solved.

Steve

In the real world we make tradeoffs. Banning pistols and knives and other on airliners does reduce the chances that they get illegally repurposed. If the guy in Vegas has no bump fire, maybe he puts 1/3 the number of rounds downrange. Those are human lives, people whose right to life and liberty has been severely attacked. How many lives are worth the tradeoff for others to conveniently blow ammo through "make believe" MGs? That's a tough question. For me I am uncomfortable with the idea that every new widget that someone thinks up I am automatically supposed to defend as life-or-death of 2A. I didn't ask for bump fire, or for whatever uber-engineered mount is sure to follow. Controllability problems with your assist device? Have we got a product for you....

[leftyo]

In the real world we make tradeoffs. Banning pistols and knives and other on airliners does reduce the chances that they get illegally repurposed. If the guy in Vegas has no bump fire, maybe he puts 1/3 the number of rounds downrange. Those are human lives, people whose right to life and liberty has been severely attacked. How many lives are worth the tradeoff for others to conveniently blow ammo through "make believe" MGs? That's a tough question. For me I am uncomfortable with the idea that every new widget that someone thinks up I am automatically supposed to defend as life-or-death of 2A. I didn't ask for bump fire, or for whatever uber-engineered mount is sure to follow. Controllability problems with your assist device? Have we got a product for you....

as we are told, he was working on a backup plan. if he didnt have the guns, it looks like he was fully prepared to pull a timothy mcveigh, which in my opinion would have resulted in a bunch more casualties. you have the boston marathon aholes, they didnt use a gun either, but never heard one of you guys calling for the banning of pressure cookers, and the list goes on and on. do you really believe banning anything will prevent these nutcases form killing? i dont! i think quite a few of you guys are really liberals, you just havent realized it yet!

[m1ashooter]

Lets let all the facts come out if we will ever get all the facts. I just saw some video of what looks like gun fire coming from the 12th floor.

[JB White]

Bump fire. I could never see the purpose behind them aside from spraying ammo and overheating/ruining a good barrel while running the risk of a cook-off. Seriously now....how many here own a bump fire device, or a trigger crank, just because they like the idea of owning one? Why? It's not a full auto. It can't lay down a beaten zone for suppression. It's wild (and fun for a minute or two..ok) and it's no way as accurate as a select fire shoulder mounted weapon. It's like putting NoS on the family car. Goes fast until the engine takes a dump.

Bump fire devices ARE NOT FIREARMS! This isn't a 2A debate at all. It's just a friggin' TOY!

I'm with Dick. The NRA should spearhead the drive to eliminate such things and head off the liberals at the pass. They were fun while they lasted but some a-hole had to ruin it.

[leftyo]

the libs dont just want some of the toys, they want all your guns. so called gun owners calling for a ban of one item or another just further their cause. just remember flash hiders, pistol grips, "hi cap magazines", etc. these are all not needed according to the libs, nor is semi auto, etc. as for friggen toys, i think the whole world saw that its not just a toy. i dont own one, but not willing to sell out!

[Griff Murphey]

Anybody on this forum... Do you really want to defend bump fire and other accelerators?

Because if you are going to try we are going to lose our military semiautos. There is no way on God's green that you can justify turning loose just anybody with a full auto, admittedly a second rate one but damn sure deadly firing into a crowd.

I'd rather keep my guns. I've never proposed banning any "part" before but I damn sure will now. I think ATF likely approved the things knowing eventually the worst case scenario would happen... And it has.

[leftyo]

the libs arent going to stop with just getting bump fire stocks, crank triggers etc. they want your semi auto rifles, and the magazines that go with them. your seriously dillussional if you think giving up a part or two is going to stop their quest to fully disarm you! we've seen these massacres happen with firearms, driving trucks into crowds. blowing up buildings with a moving van packed with explosives, and even pressure cookers. you've never heard a lib cry to ban vans, or pressure cookers have you?

[blackhawknj]

Matyas Rakosi, who engineered the Communist takeover of Hungary in 1945-46, was noted for his "salami slicing" tactics-just a little bit at time. What I call flank attacks on the RKBA-cf. the attempts to deny recent veterans their 2A Rights on the grounds that they've been so "traumatized"-PTSD, anyone ?-that ...you get the picture.
Supposing they find out this guy was on drugs, either prescription or illegal-what then.
Gun owners are a pretty ingenious and inventive bunch. Be honest-how any of you have bought "those" books and made silencers ? Outlaw bump fire parts. accelerators ? Make your own out of scrap metal, won't hurt so much if you have to ditch them.

[leftyo]

Matyas Rakosi, who engineered the Communist takeover of Hungary in 1945-46, was noted for his "salami slicing" tactics-just a little bit at time. What I call flank attacks on the RKBA-cf. the attempts to deny recent veterans their 2A Rights on the grounds that they've been so "traumatized"-PTSD, anyone ?-that ...you get the picture.
Supposing they find out this guy was on drugs, either prescription or illegal-what then.
Gun owners are a pretty ingenious and inventive bunch. Be honest-how any of you have bought "those" books and made silencers ? Outlaw bump fire parts. accelerators ? Make your own out of scrap metal, won't hurt so much if you have to ditch them.

this is pretty good. we all know that criminals dont abide by the law anyways. anything banned just deprives honest people, it doesnt deprive or slow down criminals in the least!

[dobek]

Anybody on this forum... Do you really want to defend bump fire and other accelerators?

Because if you are going to try we are going to lose our military semiautos. There is no way on God's green that you can justify turning loose just anybody with a full auto, admittedly a second rate one but damn sure deadly firing into a crowd.

I'd rather keep my guns. I've never proposed banning any "part" before but I damn sure will now. I think ATF likely approved the things knowing eventually the worst case scenario would happen... And it has.

I will -

When was the last time a gun grabber compromised? Do you think if we offered to outlaw bump fire if they agree to national reciprocity of CCW they would look across and say - sure - that will work...

IT ISN'T THE FRIGGIN TOOL THAT KILLED ANYONE - IT IS THE PERSON

I live this sh$t every day - I live in California - where we have outlawed scary flash hiders, scary bayonet lugs, scary pistol grip stocks, scary detachable magazines, scary bullet buttons, scary pistols that don't pass a drop test, scary pistols that don't microstamp serial numbers on brass, scary ammunition without a license.... God knows no one needs more than one firearm every 30 days - then wait another 10 days to "cool down"...oh yeah, and those guns of choice for gang bangers - the scary .50 cal which can shoot straight through 10 houses..... and the list goes on.....

You are just fooling yourself and willingly allowing the camel's nose under the tent.... don't believe it? come live in CA

I don't want to add ANOTHER item to the list of stuff I have to beg a bureaucrat to allow me to purchase....

Do I own a bump fire? nope - Did I ever want to own one? nope - but that is my CHOICE not some politicians wet dream.

I can hear it now..... I'd blow your arse away, if only that darn bump fire stock was legal... dang that law.... now I can't live out my warped end of life....

Government is NOT the answer to every situation - NO LAW WILL STOP A NUT

Steve

[S.A. Boggs]

I will -

When was the last time a gun grabber compromised? Do you think if we offered to outlaw bump fire if they agree to national reciprocity of CCW they would look across and say - sure - that will work...

IT ISN'T THE FRIGGIN TOOL THAT KILLED ANYONE - IT IS THE PERSON

I live this sh$t every day - I live in California - where we have outlawed scary flash hiders, scary bayonet lugs, scary pistol grip stocks, scary detachable magazines, scary bullet buttons, scary pistols that don't pass a drop test, scary pistols that don't microstamp serial numbers on brass, scary ammunition without a license.... God knows no one needs more than one firearm every 30 days - then wait another 10 days to "cool down"...oh yeah, and those guns of choice for gang bangers - the scary .50 cal which can shoot straight through 10 houses..... and the list goes on.....

You are just fooling yourself and willingly allowing the camel's nose under the tent.... don't believe it? come live in CA

I don't want to add ANOTHER item to the list of stuff I have to beg a bureaucrat to allow me to purchase....

Do I own a bump fire? nope - Did I ever want to own one? nope - but that is my CHOICE not some politicians wet dream.

I can hear it now..... I'd blow your arse away, if only that darn bump fire stock was legal... dang that law.... now I can't live out my warped end of life....

Government is NOT the answer to every situation - NO LAW WILL STOP A NUT

Steve
Gentlemen now you have heard it from someone who is in the trenches living and fighting, while the vast majority of us still wait in the trucks to deploy. "I don't agree with what you said, but I will fight to the death for you to say it!" sound familiar. To give a shark a hunk of meat will only make them more desirous of where the meat is coming from. Who here is willing to be the first chunk...not I.
Sam

[togor]

No one has any illusions about what the anti gunners want. That's not even a question. What is a question is if an assist device needs to be defended the same as a firearm. And if so, why.

[S.A. Boggs]

No one has any illusions about what the anti gunners want. That's not even a question. What is a question is if an assist device needs to be defended the same as a firearm. And if so, why.
Why not? Do you "need" those deadly high capacity feeding devices? Do we "need" a firearms that holds. "More then two bullets" as the news people say. Do you really "need" more then_________fill in the blanks. Who or what are you willing to have define, "Your Need?" Unless we all stay together we have a good chance of hanging individually and mark my word we will HANG. Since the control of full automatic firearms "to get them out of criminal hands" gun owners are going down a slippery path that we grease ourselves. Amongst ourselves this should not be a conversation of what "we" are willing to defend. I don't own one of these devices, yet I reload and make my own bullets. For the sake of society who here is willing to have me give up part of my hobby for the sake of government control of all ammunition? Are "we" that willing to sell each other out? Who here is willing to step up and say, "I will for the sake of a safe society and for the children!" What did that Famous American Hero say..."Give me Liberty or give me Death!"
Sam

[Roadkingtrax]

Bump fire devices were a range toy up until Sunday night. Now, they will be the sacrificial lamb. It was simply a matter of time.

[Dick Hosmer]

All the Patrick Henry rhetoric aside, the times may have to make us at least consider some small compromises. Make no mistake, my "line in the sand" is FAR to the right of most people, but if we can be honest enough to admit that the bump-stock was a bad idea which should NEVER have gotton past the 'doodling on a napkin' stage, our image would improve greatly.

[S.A. Boggs]

All the Patrick Henry rhetoric aside, the times may have to make us at least consider some small compromises. Make no mistake, my "line in the sand" is FAR to the right of most people, but if we can be honest enough to admit that the bump-stock was a bad idea which should NEVER have gotton past the 'doodling on a napkin' stage, our image would improve greatly.
BATF could have shut this down at any time and yet didn't. What was it, 30 years ago the "drop in"sears for AR's? Can someone answer me this, since 1934 what compromises have the anti's made? In 1986 Ronnie helped stop the manufacture of all new auto weapons and "we" were thrown the bone that military surplus firearms could be imported. How long did this last? IMHO any compromise is a lose regardless of any promises on future actions. Want to talk about gun control, O.K. I have a CCW in Ohio make it a Federal Law that I can use my license in New York or Jersey and not be harassed. Supreme court says that driver's licenses are good in all state, marriage licenses, why not CCW as well. I will compromise and not drink beef for the rest of my life for this. {I don't drink anyway.}
Sam

[m1ashooter]

Why should we compromise on any right given to the people by the Bill of Rights!

[togor]

Why should we compromise on any right given to the people by the Bill of Rights!

You already know the answer. Because rights extended unchecked collide with rights coming from another direction. Examples abound.

[S.A. Boggs]

You already know the answer. Because rights extended unchecked collide with rights coming from another direction. Examples abound.
Who is willing to let a "government" tell you what your "rights" are? In grade school half a century ago I was taught that the Bill Of Rights was for what the government "couldn't" do against a citizen. Want to stop this high rise type of violence, easy enough. Require ALL buildings more then one story high to have bullet proof glass, no exceptions, no grandfathering. ALL luggage, packages coming into the building regardless of source be completely inspected. Everyone coming into the building, guests and employees must go thru a metal detector. The U.S. government will provide 3 armed guards at each exit regardless and all must to checked. These suggestions make as much sense as what the left wing in the U.S. wants. With my suggestions, who could be against it as it is for "Public Safety.":eusa_shhh::protest:

[JB White]

Just like Jarts (lawn darts) the Consumer Product Safety Commission can call for a ban on bump fire/crank fire devices. Those items have nothing to do with firearms in general nor do they compromise the efficiency of a firearm.

Are we suffering and are our rights in jeopardy due to the banning of certain targets? Gee...most of us here cannot legally discharge a firearm out the back door of our homes anymore. We can't hunt within a certain distance of buildings and structures. Are our rights threatened? No, because those things were bad ideas or became a nuisance in the interest of public safety. We still have our guns and thankfully some Draconian restrictions have been recently lifted.

Bump fire devices have only one purpose. Go fast so we can laugh. It's not so funny anymore. Defending these pieces of crap (always has been my opinion of them) will not make ourselves look good in the public eye. We're divided amongst ourselves on this already. Go ahead and defend them if you wish. You'll regret it later when our credibility is shot to hell over a toy and something truly "right threatening" comes up later...and you can bet your @$$ it most certainly will.

[Art]

I personally know enough serious conservatives who are very pro second amendment who after this shooting would support a "bump fire" device ban that I believe the anti's could get it passed. By the way...most of these folks didn't know there was such a thing as "bump fire." However....the libs can't help themselves. They always over reach so I suspect these things will stay legal. If the bump fire devices were banned though, the ban would hold up, they are nothing but a way to circumvent the National Firearms Act which none other than Justice Scalia said was sacrosanct.

[Dick Hosmer]

With Art & JBW basically in agreement with my position on bump-fire , I feel in very good company!!! I'm as pro-2A as anyone, but 230+ years of "progress" have washed under the bridges. Would the founding fathers have said what they said, today? Or, would they have been more specific? NO ONE KNOWS, but thank God they (through ignorance or foresight, or a little of both) took a generic path - which drives the wacko lib word parsers stark raving nuts.

The immediate proposing of a draconian ban on bump-stocks (or placing them in the NFA category, perhaps more palatable to the firebrands here) coming from our side would be a tremendous PR benefit, which would effectively shut the mouths of a lot of the great unwashed, even if there is no reciprocation. But, the window is closing rapidly, let some Democrat get the credit, and the opportunity will be lost forever. An EO, today, would not be too soon for me.

[sid]

I went online to see if bump-stocks were still on sale. I checked 3 sites including Cabelas and all of them listed these gadgets as "out of stock." I doubt if any legitimate businesses will sell these any more. I guess that many of these that were already made will end up on some underground market.

[Dick Hosmer]

I went online to see if bump-stocks were still on sale. I checked 3 sites including Cabelas and all of them listed these gadgets as "out of stock." I doubt if any legitimate businesses will sell these any more. I guess that many of these that were already made will end up on some underground market.

No 'legitimate" business with even a small degree of morality, or good sense, would ever have handled them, right from the git-go. I cannot think of a more blatantly obvious attempt to circumvent a law. Whoever put them on the market, and sold them, was only looking for a quick buck, and did not care squat about the obvious potential for mis-use. I'll also go further (and some here will challenge me) and say that they were NOT a true friend of firearms owners - the item was/is an accident just looking for a place to happen, to the detriment of a whole lot of people.

[S.A. Boggs]

Remember the "street sweeper" 12 gauge of 30 years ago being declared a DD mainly because of the rotary magazine and being semi? Never could see the sense as they beat the heck out of you, but they looked "evil" and so they must go. I expect the same will happen to these devices. My question is why the BATF(E) allowed them in the first place for what they were designed to do. Do we allow semi's to go the same way because they "could" be converted to full auto fire. Do we now go back to the draconian "assault" magazine ban only now make it permeant. Do we really "need" semi auto fire weapons of mass destruction? Do we hang our head in "shame" and allow an Australian existence for the good of society? How about following England's lead that even speech can be prosecuted/persecuted if the government feels so. Golly, gee whiz no one needs that "stuff" sure I will side with you in getting rid of_______fill in the blanks.:usa2::icon_scratch:
Sam

[Griff Murphey]

Giving up a piece of junk like a bump fire stock is more like catching that shark with an artificial lure.

I see it as a tremendous public relations positive opportunity. Still have not had anyone make a cogent argument in support of the things. All I am hearing is: "We must never give an inch...." but I have yet to hear from anyone who will admit to owning one.

[leftyo]

No one has any illusions about what the anti gunners want. That's not even a question. What is a question is if an assist device needs to be defended the same as a firearm. And if so, why.

because if they get the bumpfire stocks, the next step is the magazines, then the next step is the semi autos, because after all who needs that kind of firepower... next your down to single shot break open rifles, and then they will take them too. we have been through this ban stuff before, and were damned lucky to get out from under it. the libs could care less about bump fire stocks, they want the guns in entirety!

[Dick Hosmer]

Sam - I agree with you in sentiment, and am in awe of your life experiences, but there is a limit.

Would I support making all semi-auto arms illegal? NO!

Would I even support making the entire family of "AR15 type" arms illegal? NO!

Would I support a ban, or even any limits, on reloading? NO!

Would I support some sort of magazine capacity ban? Yes, I would, but it would have to exempt .22s and be large enough (20-25) to exempt pistols.

[Dick Hosmer]

because if they get the bumpfire stocks, the next step is the magazines, then the next step is the semi autos, because after all who needs that kind of firepower... next your down to single shot break open rifles, and then they will take them too. we have been through this ban stuff before, and were damned lucky to get out from under it. the libs could care less about bump fire stocks, they want the guns in entirety!

A line needs to be drawn - the question is where. Get too fiery, and pig-headedly obstinate in the face of an obvious problem, and the results will please no one here. Stop and think - do you really want a revolution in this country, now? That time may come, for other reasons, but over a hunk of cheap plastic with disaster written all over it - really?

[leftyo]

you think we are going to have a revolution over this? really?

[togor]

because if they get the bumpfire stocks, the next step is the magazines, then the next step is the semi autos, because after all who needs that kind of firepower... next your down to single shot break open rifles, and then they will take them too. we have been through this ban stuff before, and were damned lucky to get out from under it. the libs could care less about bump fire stocks, they want the guns in entirety!

The Domino Theory defense, but not all dominos are created equal. Illegality of the act was obviously an insufficient deterrent, as the shooter was prepared for a one way trip. And even if taken alive, there is no way to make the punishment fit the crime. In such cases, it becomes necessary to make the physical activity itself more difficult to pull off. People here are recommending proactive surgery towards that end, and their reasoning strikes me as sound. If you will, they are suggesting that we pull a domino out of the line to break the chain.

[Dick Hosmer]

you think we are going to have a revolution over this? really?

No, not immediately, but that Rambo-wannabe a$$hole has kicked a big snowball over the edge of the mountain. Who knows where it will ultimately go? There's plenty of trouble in the streets already. I'm sure they already have plenty of them, but do you want BLM, and their ilk, to be buying more bump-stocks? Get them off the market now.

[Dick Hosmer]

The Domino Theory defense, but not all dominos are created equal. Illegality of the act was obviously an insufficient deterrent, as the shooter was prepared for a one way trip. And even if taken alive, there is no way to make the punishment fit the crime. In such cases, it becomes necessary to make the physical activity itself more difficult to pull off. People here are recommending proactive surgery towards that end, and their reasoning strikes me as sound. If you will, they are suggesting that we pull a domino out of the line to break the chain.

WELL said!!

[S.A. Boggs]

Would ANYONE HERE support a convicted rapist? This may sound like a stupid question but I have a reason for asking it. 99% here would say no and rightly so. Why support a convicted rapist...right? Years ago I had one as a client who was trying to be shoved into the next tier with more restrictions on his ability to function in society, I was opposed by several female cohorts in doing this. The feeling was that he deserved whatever society was willing to do to him. I was of the opinion that if society was not willing to play by the legal rules, how can I expect the same of him or anyone? He was convicted days before the new law went into affect and the legal system wanted to apply the new law to him...didn't matter this was unconstitutional, he was a convicted rapist. I won and he stayed under the old law, I also told him that if he did anything wrong I would supply a new rope and place the noose on his neck. Same applies here as I see it, I might not like what I see but worse WILL HAPPEN. I know I have ruffled a few feather's with my unpopular stand, but I strongly believe in supporting my belief. The anti's WILL TAKE ADVANTAGE of any weak link that we possess. Any position is only as strong as it's weakest point. Again I ask, since 1934 what have "we" gained in the gun control argument and what have "we" had taken away? By the way, the worst mass murder in the U.S. was in 1990 and it was done with gasoline. The worst killing of children was in 1925 with dynamite.
Sam

[Sandpebble]

WELL said!!

Dick Hosmer ... I will tell you now that your input into this particular thread is on the mark... as is Togors . Thanks to you both

I must also point out that I'm a bit bemused that many here cannot comprehend any type of government intervention pertaining to any type of weapon after they defended the Governments positition of preventing the sale of beer in a hurricane devestated area . After all.... they said right here on Culvers.... alcohol in that situation could be bad for the general well being.

They'll defend the governments position to prevent an after work beer in the name of public safety yet the thought of banning a bump stock is repulsive ...

I was accused of being an alcoholic because I was pissed at a ban on beer ....... what do we accuse someone of being when they defend bump stocks ...??

[S.A. Boggs]

Where is ethanol a Constitutional Right?
Sam:hello::banana100:

[Roadkingtrax]

21st Amendment is close enough. Damn the "Drys"!

[S.A. Boggs]

21st Amendment is close enough. Damn the "Drys"!
I agree, I was wrong and will take the 100 lashes with a wet noodle! One thing I have never quite understood is why a person can make beer [horrible stuff!], wine at home. Yet if I do whiskey [nectar of the gods, water of life.] I am required to purchase a license and pay a whiskey tax. I guess it goes back to having pay for the Revolution. You would think that the bills would be paid by now.
Sam

[S.A. Boggs]

Just read the BATF letter on this stock and it appears the BATF has no jurisdiction over it as it is a part and not a weapon. Interesting read from 2010.
Sam

[leftyo]

Just read the BATF letter on this stock and it appears the BATF has no jurisdiction over it as it is a part and not a weapon. Interesting read from 2010.
Sam

that is correct, and the atf has no issue with it because even with it installed a semi automatic firearm still only fires ONCE per pull of the trigger. havent see any of you guys notice the 100rnd magazine that was stuffed into one of those rifles we have seen from the murderers room. so how long do you all think it is before the libs turn form the bump stock to the magazine capacity again? im sure none of you have a problem with a 10rnd limit again, heck maybe it will be 5 this time! heck they probably wont even grand father in what you already own. we have been down the ban road before , and got lucky. i guarantee the libtard democrats learned from their last try.

[blackhawknj]

I have no problem with a 10 round magazine limit-as a mostly "Bullseye" shooter I usually load only 5-but that is MY decision, I don't need to be dictated to by some bureaucrat. If other shooters want them.....

[Dick Hosmer]

Just read the BATF letter on this stock and it appears the BATF has no jurisdiction over it as it is a part and not a weapon. Interesting read from 2010.
Sam

To me, at least in this case, that is a distinction without a difference.

The point raised about the gun still being "just" a semi-automatic is technically true, but mounting the stock clearly implies that semi-auto isn't what the person had in mind. That stock was designed for one purpose and one purpose only, a blatant, in-your-face work-around to the NFA. Bully, they got it to market and made a few thousand bucks. Weigh that against the cost in lives, and future grief for us all. I hope the designer(s) is/are really proud of themselves.

[S.A. Boggs]

Dick, I have to agree with you this was an "invention" that should have gone to file 13. Problem is the genie is out of the bottle and how do we put the darn thing back in? If I was a retailer I would pull the awful things and see if the manufacturer would take them back. Too many shysters out there with the "Should have know" mentality and a penchant of filing lawsuits. There are 58 souls who no longer are among us and that is a pity. Life has no guarantee of safety and the only life manual I know of is the KJV/NLI. One thing for certain, Ken certainly provided us with a lively topic with many learned opinions. Now if Ken would only provide some winning lottery numbers along with where and when to play that would be most entertaining and beneficial. :banana100:
Sam

[leftyo]

come on guys. long before this stock was ever thought of people hooked their friggen finger in the trigger and bumpfired the gun without anything else needed. you going to ban fingers too?!!! just to make another point, even if it is banned, outlawed, demonized, do you think its going to stop some nutbag crazy sumbitch from going in his garage and making his own in about 15 minutes or so regardless of any goddamned law! it is already against the law to murder people, didnt seem to stop this guy, do you think another law, and another item taken away from good honest people is going to stop someone form doing something like this again? if you do, your a liberal!

[dobek]

You guys are amazing - you want a PR win? You want to "look good"

You are going to look gorgeous standing in line to turn in your guns.... Wear your pretty shoes when you stop by to talk about the good old days when we were allowed single shot shotguns (with steel shot) - you remember back in 2017 when we made society safe once and for all.

Steve

[dobek]

You guys are amazing - you want a PR win? You want to "look good"

You are going to look gorgeous standing in line to turn in your guns.... Wear your pretty shoes when you stop by to talk about the good old days when we were allowed single shot shotguns (with steel shot) - you remember back in 2017 when we made society safe once and for all.

Steve

[Dick Hosmer]

You guys are amazing - you want a PR win? You want to "look good"

You are going to look gorgeous standing in line to turn in your guns.... Wear your pretty shoes when you stop by to talk about the good old days when we were allowed single shot shotguns (with steel shot) - you remember back in 2017 when we made society safe once and for all.

Steve

Well, we are going to get f**ked over this one way or another, why not get kissed too?

You know, there IS a limit to how many of these events that the general public is going to take without going totally batsh*t crazy. SOME common-ground agreement has to be reached, and some (truly) minor things may have to be given up. That does NOT mean I espouse taking anyone's guns! We're only talking about a relatively new accessory that was most ill-advised to begin with. No thinking person should ever have purchased one. As was pointed out, if you feel the need to spray with your AR, the knack of letting the rifle bounce against your trigger finger is apparently not too hard to acquire.

You do know that the pressure for a Constitutional Convention is gathering momentum, right? And you do know that, at such a convention, the WHOLE document is open for discussion, right, not just one particular grievance? It would be nice to have such a convention under a more unified feeling than we have now. Togor had it right, about pulling a domino out of the lineup. The hardnose "from my cold dead hands" guys are, IMHO, at least part of the problem - in fact, I see them as the primary bump-stock buyers.

[leftyo]

that mentality is exactly how we ended up with the clinton gun ban of 94!

[m1ashooter]

Well, we are going to get f**ked over this one way or another, why not get kissed too?

You know, there IS a limit to how many of these events that the general public is going to take without going totally batsh*t crazy. SOME common-ground agreement has to be reached, and some (truly) minor things may have to be given up. That does NOT mean I espouse taking anyone's guns! We're only talking about a relatively new accessory that was most ill-advised to begin with. No thinking person should ever have purchased one. As was pointed out, if you feel the need to spray with your AR, the knack of letting the rifle bounce against your trigger finger is apparently not too hard to acquire.

You do know that the pressure for a Constitutional Convention is gathering momentum, right? And you do know that, at such a convention, the WHOLE document is open for discussion, right, not just one particular grievance? It would be nice to have such a convention under a more unified feeling than we have now. Togor had it right, about pulling a domino out of the lineup. The hardnose "from my cold dead hands" guys are, IMHO, at least part of the problem - in fact, I see them as the primary bump-stock buyers.

Sir. I never paid attention to what a bump stock was until this massacre in Vegas. You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine, but I am a hardnose "from my dead hands guy and I don't own a bump stock.

[Dick Hosmer]

Sir. I never paid attention to what a bump stock was until this massacre in Vegas. You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine, but I am a hardnose "from my dead hands guy and I don't own a bump stock.

Your point is well taken. I should have said "some". Carelessly tarring with a broad brush has its' pitfalls. Of course, the reverse can be true - not all of those who seek some sanity in this matter are spineless wimps. It is a just a matter of where the line is drawn.

[m1ashooter]

Your point is well taken. I should have said "some". Carelessly tarring with a broad brush has its' pitfalls. Of course, the reverse can be true - not all of those who seek some sanity in this matter are spineless wimps. It is a just a matter of where the line is drawn.

Thank you sir.

[dobek]

SOME common-ground agreement has to be reached, and some (truly) minor things may have to be given up. .

Please give me ONE example where the anti-gun folks have compromised and given us anything? I can't think of a thing

You also seem to forget who frames "common sense" in this argument. Because common sense says no one should have a military type rifle. Why does a common citizen need to run around with military guns? What kind of crazed Rambo are you that you need that kind of firepower.

Are you familiar with the term "boil the frog" - this is an example - and you are leading the charge into the pot

It might be time to start selling the gun collection - because with gun enthousiasts leading the charge to outlaw themselves - it won't be long before my collection is worthless

Steve

[JB White]

Some of you guys are missing the point. There is no compromise. WE get rid of a bad idea before THEY do. If THEY try, they'll pile it on and the critters on the Hill will get rid of more just to get rid of 'bump fire'.
Then all of us will look like the bad guys. Fighting to keep our semi-autos and magazine capacities while having to defend bump fire in the same collective basket.

Dump the bump now. Then fight them on separate issues later. If we don't do this we'll lose more. The only "compromise" they will give us from their bundle are the things THEY are smart enough to think they can win on later. I can almost promise you that so long as that device is easily available the general public will be against us. We need to look like the educated gentlemen and ladies we are, instead of some ill tempered toothless fist clenching camo-clad losers screaming the same tired old rhetoric into the news camera. You've seen the type. The kind the media always seeks out to hold up as an example of the gun lobby.

So, make up your mind. Defend bump now and get ready to lose something else in the heat of the battle. Or, take the wind out of their sails and force them to rehash issues they have already lost.

[USMilitaryGuy]

snip . . .

force them to rehash issues they have already lost.

Could you please give a few examples of "issues they have already lost"?

[Dick Hosmer]

Some of you guys are missing the point. There is no compromise. WE get rid of a bad idea before THEY do. If THEY try, they'll pile it on and the critters on the Hill will get rid of more just to get rid of 'bump fire'.
Then all of us will look like the bad guys. Fighting to keep our semi-autos and magazine capacities while having to defend bump fire in the same collective basket.

Dump the bump now. Then fight them on separate issues later. If we don't do this we'll lose more. The only "compromise" they will give us from their bundle are the things THEY are smart enough to think they can win on later. I can almost promise you that so long as that device is easily available the general public will be against us. We need to look like the educated gentlemen and ladies we are, instead of some ill tempered toothless fist clenching camo-clad losers screaming the same tired old rhetoric into the news camera. You've seen the type. The kind the media always seeks out to hold up as an example of the gun lobby.

So, make up your mind. Defend bump now and get ready to lose something else in the heat of the battle. Or, take the wind out of their sails and force them to rehash issues they have already lost.

Very well put, JB. SOME of these camo-jockeys are, in their blathering short-sighted ignorance, doing us a LOT of harm. Just because I don't particularly care for black rifles, does not mean that I think they should be outlawed, registered, or much of anything else. This bump-stock sh*t is something else, however. Unfortunately, it was allowed to proceed (anyone else think BHO's boys LET it happen, figuring that an LV of some kind would someday occur) which would ultimately further their agenda? Never forget that we were "supposed" to have at least eight more years of leftist oppression. Maybe they figured they had time to let things stew? Surprise! A (relatively) pro-gun president, with two strongly pro-gun sons. Neil Gorsuch! Oooops!

[Dan Shapiro]

Dick:
NAILED IT!

Just like "Fast and Furious", Obama Inc. was just laying the groundwork.

[leftyo]

Dick:
NAILED IT!

Just like "Fast and Furious", Obama Inc. was just laying the groundwork.

he did, but he still cant see this is all an end around!

[JB White]

Could you please give a few examples of "issues they have already lost"?

Where do we start?
National gun registration shot down?
Municipal bans ordered lifted?
Reimportation of milsurps?
All 50 States now have concealed carry?
We still have our semi autos and are no longer limited to 10 rounds on a national level?
We can still reload?

A very long list, but those are the things I thought of as just soon as I read your question.

[USMilitaryGuy]

Where do we start?
National gun registration shot down?
Municipal bans ordered lifted?
Reimportation of milsurps?
All 50 States now have concealed carry?
We still have our semi autos and are no longer limited to 10 rounds on a national level?
We can still reload?

A very long list, but those are the things I thought of as just soon as I read your question.

Interesting list.

So am I to understand these items actually came in front of the congress, made it out of a committee, and then were voted down? (Of course, I know that any laws that may have been overturned by a federal court did not get a "vote".) I must admit that I don't believe some proposal by an elected official being interviewed on television is a real attempt at passing laws. In fact, often times it is just an effort to get some microphone time on the television and create a sound bite for the evening news.

I will concede that I was thinking on a federal level. I recognize that sometimes they lose on the local level. In fact, I participate in those events as often as I can. However, I suspect that the folks on the other side of the country don't really benefit from what we do here in our own little corner of the country.

Please understand I am not trying to change the topic of discussion. I just think that me taking someone to the range and letting them shoot my guns doesn't mean they "lost" *(assuming they enjoyed the experience), when we were discussing rather guns were good or bad.

[jon_norstog]

Well, we are going to get f**ked over this one way or another, why not get kissed too?

You know, there IS a limit to how many of these events that the general public is going to take without going totally batsh*t crazy. SOME common-ground agreement has to be reached, and some (truly) minor things may have to be given up. That does NOT mean I espouse taking anyone's guns! We're only talking about a relatively new accessory that was most ill-advised to begin with. No thinking person should ever have purchased one. As was pointed out, if you feel the need to spray with your AR, the knack of letting the rifle bounce against your trigger finger is apparently not too hard to acquire.

You do know that the pressure for a Constitutional Convention is gathering momentum, right? And you do know that, at such a convention, the WHOLE document is open for discussion, right, not just one particular grievance? It would be nice to have such a convention under a more unified feeling than we have now. Togor had it right, about pulling a domino out of the lineup. The hardnose "from my cold dead hands" guys are, IMHO, at least part of the problem - in fact, I see them as the primary bump-stock buyers.

Dick, you are talking sense, which will probably get you a lot of hostile comment. My own thought is, if the gun-owning "community" cannot/will not find a way to police its members' behavior, then government will. There's a limit to this kind of s**T and that limit may have just been crossed.

All I want is to shoot targets, hunt elk, "recycle" tin cans, collect milsurps and have some fun with the black powder guns. I can see some benefit in making it VERY hard to get a rifle that will fire 20 or 30 aimed shots as fast as you can pull the trigger, or a handgun with a 17-shot magazine.

As you said, there IS a limit.

jn

[leftyo]

Dick, you are talking sense, which will probably get you a lot of hostile comment. My own thought is, if the gun-owning "community" cannot/will not find a way to police its members' behavior, then government will. There's a limit to this kind of s**T and that limit may have just been crossed.

All I want is to shoot targets, hunt elk, "recycle" tin cans, collect milsurps and have some fun with the black powder guns. I can see some benefit in making it VERY hard to get a rifle that will fire 20 or 30 aimed shots as fast as you can pull the trigger, or a handgun with a 17-shot magazine.

As you said, there IS a limit.

jn

thats all fine and dandy until someone looks at you and says "that black powder is a nasty dangerous explosive, maybe we should make it harder to get"!!

[jon_norstog]

thats all fine and dandy until someone looks at you and says "that black powder is a nasty dangerous explosive, maybe we should make it harder to get"!!

It's already kind of hard to get. Fortunately I have the recipe.

jn

[m1ashooter]

Dick:
NAILED IT!

Just like "Fast and Furious", Obama Inc. was just laying the groundwork.


Never thought of that. Thank you for pointing it out.