M-1903 Springfield Timeline Question?

[RetArmyNoncom]

Even though the 1903 Springfield was adopted in 1903, when actually, after all the changes, did it officially began being issued to troops, who was first, branch, units, theaters? I did find this info:

"As further testing revealed that the M-1906 cartridge was effective with a shorter, all-purpose barrel length of 24 inches (610 mm) in length, the decision was made to issue the Springfield with a 24-inch barrel length to both cavalry and infantry forces, an idea already adopted by both the British and German armies"

If regiments heading overseas, to the PI for example in 1904, would they have embarked with still the Krag carbine?

Thanks

Ed

[John Beard]

The general issue of Model 1903 rifles was first ordered in March, 1906. Some rod bayonet rifles were selectively issued to units prior to that time, such as in the Philippines and Alaska.

J.B.

[Dick Hosmer]

I'd think it would have been possible, since there was no M1903 "carbine", but I honestly do not know.

In reading your quoted source (which was from ??) the wording would tend to make one think that they had REALLY shortened the barrel in going from the .30-'03 to the .30-'06 cartridge, when actually the change was less than a quarter of an inch (set back 2 threads, IIRC).

[RetArmyNoncom]

Do you think any Cav unit heading to the PI late 03, early 04 would have embarked with an 03 w/rod bayonet? What about Federal units already in the PI? Would crates have been shipped over?

[RetArmyNoncom]

Seems there were issues and the rod bayonet was one of them. Seems those who had a say-so wanted them changed to blade bayonet. But as John said above, he believes those 03s with rod bayonets were still issued out to some troops.

[cplnorton]

The first real shipment I can trace with the Marines was 400 star gauged barrel M1903's in 1909.

The first real shipment of regular rifles in number that I can trace is 4000 in 1910.

[RetArmyNoncom]

The first real shipment I can trace with the Marines was 400 star gauged barrel M1903's in 1909.

The first real shipment of regular rifles in number that I can trace is 4000 in 1910.

Thanks....that helps in decision making.

Cheers

[RetArmyNoncom]

I came across this info:

"Under renewed pressure, the Bureau of Ordinance finally began a serious effort at finding a replacement for the Colt .38. The Bureau's priority had been replacing the .30-.40 Krag with a new high-powered rifle identical to the German Mauser. This would become the 1903 Springfield that American doughboys would carry into World War I (troops in the Philippines did not get the new rifle until 1907.)"

"http://morolandhistory.com/Related%20Articles/Legend%20of%20.45.htm"

[Rick the Librarian]

The first real shipment I can trace with the Marines was 400 star gauged barrel M1903's in 1909.

The first real shipment of regular rifles in number that I can trace is 4000 in 1910.

Yes, the Marines hung onto the Krag for quite a while.

[Rick the Librarian]

I agree - the decision to issue a "one size fits all" rifle was made considerably before the changeover to the 30-06. That was one of the purposes of designing the M1903 in the first place.

[RetArmyNoncom]

Almost same link that counters the above info....who knows from different writers of articles. Government shipment records as CplNorton stated above doesn't confuse the issue.

http://www.morolandhistory.com/05.PG-Kris-vs-Krag/3.american_longarms.htm

[RetArmyNoncom]

Yes, the Marines hung onto the Krag for quite a while.

They also hung on to the 03 before accepting the M-1 Garand, something about Marines doesn't need all that extra ammo. Semi-auto will lead to wasting ammo...........or so the story goes.

[Dan Shapiro]

In defense of Marines..............

In the late 30's, with no war yet on the horizon, the Corps tested the M1......or I should say, the Old Breed tested the M1 and found it wanting. Why? Simple Depression Era economics. It took time to master the '03. When you qualified Expert, it was an added $5 a month in your paycheck. No bad for a guy who was making $39 a month base pay.

Some in the Corps realized the M1's potential, but also noted it's teething problems. Notably that these were new weapons and had yet to be 'worked in'. Problems with the "7th round" jam and the 'flush nut' rear sight didn't help.

[RetArmyNoncom]

In defense of Marines..............

In the late 30's, with no war yet on the horizon, the Corps tested the M1......or I should say, the Old Breed tested the M1 and found it wanting. Why? Simple Depression Era economics. It took time to master the '03. When you qualified Expert, it was an added $5 a month in your paycheck. No bad for a guy who was making $39 a month base pay.

Some in the Corps realized the M1's potential, but also noted it's teething problems. Notably that these were new weapons and had yet to be 'worked in'. Problems with the "7th round" jam and the 'flush nut' rear sight didn't help.

I remember now who told me that story, two of my uncles, one a rifleman on the Guadalcanal and the other a rifleman on Iwo. That first uncle served in WWII and Korea in the Corps and Vietnam as a senior Army NCO.

[p246]

I'll start by saying I'd defer to C.N., RTL, and J.B prior to this.

In THE ROCK ISLAND RIFLE MODEL 1903 by C.S. Ferries on page 9. Springfield had produced 30,000 RB Rifles by June 30th, 1904. Springfield had equipped the corps of cadets at West Point, Troops at Fort Snelling Minnesota and the 25th Infantry Regiment in Texas with RB 1903s during this time.

The context of this paragraph is more that Rock Island had not started any meaningful rifle production yet.

[RetArmyNoncom]

I'll start by saying I'd defer to C.N., RTL, and J.B prior to this.

In THE ROCK ISLAND RIFLE MODEL 1903 by C.S. Ferries on page 9. Springfield had produced 30,000 RB Rifles by June 30th, 1904. Springfield had equipped the corps of cadets at West Point, Troops at Fort Snelling Minnesota and the 25th Infantry Regiment in Texas with RB 1903s during this time.

The context of this paragraph is more that Rock Island had not started any meaningful rifle production yet.

Thanks for that info.....I've come pretty much to the conclusion now that the 7th Cav Regt departed for duty in the PI in 1904 with Krag carbines. Chances for returning with them in 1907 are a bit less but I would think they brought them back and exchanged them for 03's at that time.

[stevekaw]

Among the first units to receive the Rod-Bayonet version of the rifle was the Cadet Corps of the United States Military Academy (West Point)...

[98src]

Among the first units to receive the Rod-Bayonet version of the rifle was the Cadet Corps of the United States Military Academy (West Point)...

The attached image came from a book that contained Patton's letters.

[rayg]

As stated RIA did not start actual line production of standard 1903 rifles until the beginning of 1907. Here is my RIA rifle which was one of the very first rifles off the line in 1907. Not many of these around still in original condition any more. No stock bolts, no grove hand guard, high wood stock, etc, Ray
4233442335423364233742338

[rayg]

xxxxx

[rayg]

According to C.S. Ferris & J. Beard, pg 25,
these are some of the serial numbers of known rifles produced in that first month.

63499 4-07
65975 3-07
71587 4-07
87229 6-07 My serial number is 87241 and corresponds to the 6-07 bbl number.
94160 8-07

[Rick the Librarian]

Interesting - I have RIA 16,093 with a 6-05 RIA barrel.


42353
42354
42355

[rayg]

Nice rifle Rick, looks like one of the early rifles assembled using the usable parts that were original made for the RB and 30-03 rifles and were never assembled but stored to be used later. Rare to see a 1908 dated stock on one of them, and a beauty at that, as most rifles weren't assembled with the early parts until 1909-10. Nice to have one that was assembled so early, Ray

[Vern Humphrey]

I'd think it would have been possible, since there was no M1903 "carbine", but I honestly do not know.

In reading your quoted source (which was from ??) the wording would tend to make one think that they had REALLY shortened the barrel in going from the .30-'03 to the .30-'06 cartridge, when actually the change was less than a quarter of an inch (set back 2 threads, IIRC).

You're correct. And the Springfield was the first short-barreled rifle developed by a major power. The Short Magazine Lee Enfield (the word "short" designating a 25-inch barrel) was adopted in 1907, and the Kar 98 was adopted after WWI.

[Fred]

Nice!!!

[CPC]

Very nice, I really like the old script serial numbers on the RIA’s , I have a 106k Rifle but it doesn’t have an original barrel (1907/08?). Thank you for sharing. Interesting thread.