View Full Version : home defence
richard pries
10-15-2017, 04:26
if a person breaks into your house and hurts a person can you use deadly force if they are running away and not facing you. correction DEFENSE
im no lawyer, but if they are running away and you use deadly force, your probably going to spend time behind bars. now personally id say the bad guy deserves whatever you do to them.
Vern Humphrey
10-15-2017, 05:16
"As he was tactically repositioning himself in an attempt to outflank me, he momentarily exposed himself, and I fired."
Our county Sheriff and DA just had an event to answer just such questions. I'm in PA so this doesn't mean squat outside of here, but other states may be close. We have "castle doctrine" and "stand your ground" here and it was explained thusly- To use either of these, you must believe either yourself or others are in mortal danger and the person threatening you or the others must have a lethal weapon. So, a person running away from you poses no danger and, therefore cannot be met with lethal force.
For those who are interested, here's a link to the article in the Citizens' Voice- http://citizensvoice.com/news/authorities-explain-pa-concealed-carry-laws-1.2254698
You'll need to answer a question to see the article, but they normally also have the choice of "I prefer not to answer." I'm not sure how long articles remain.
Major Tom
10-16-2017, 05:03
Drag the S.O.B. back into your house.
clintonhater
10-16-2017, 07:52
Drag the S.O.B. back into your house.
Absolutely, but be sure to wrap his fingers around a butcher knife before rigor mortis sets in.
I think it is safe to say that would be the law in all states.
if a person breaks into your house and hurts a person can you use deadly force if they are running away and not facing you. correction DEFENSE
Hi Richard, If he is running away from you he is no longer a threat. They did away with "fleeing felon" rights by law enforcement. That means the police could shoot a fleeing felon. The test now is was your life in danger? The state of crime scene detection is advanced. If you move a body or plant a weapon you will be caught, regards, Mike
JB White
10-16-2017, 10:19
If you move a body or plant a weapon you will be caught,
If you hadn't said that I would have. Forensics have come a long way since the 60's. Do something like that now and you'll be the demon before the jury.
Vern Humphrey
10-16-2017, 01:45
Hi Richard, If he is running away from you he is no longer a threat. They did away with "fleeing felon" rights by law enforcement. That means the police could shoot a fleeing felon. The test now is was your life in danger? The state of crime scene detection is advanced. If you move a body or plant a weapon you will be caught, regards, Mike
"Running away" and "fleeing" are two different things. An armed attacker who is moving is definitely a threat no matter WHICH direction he's moving -- how do you know he isn't moving to a better position, or attempting to flank you.
Now if he throws away his weapon and runs, that's another thing.
if a person breaks into your house and hurts a person can you use deadly force if they are running away and not facing you. correction DEFENSE
A homeowner in Anaheim Hills, Ca confronted a burglar in his garage. The burglar hit the home owner with a shovel. The homeowner went upstairs and retrieved his shotgun. He came back to his garage in time to see the burglar running down the sidewalk. He shot the burglar, and the burglar was apprehended as the police arrived on the scene.
Several months later, the District Attorney declined to charge the homeowner, even though it is illegal to shoot someone running away. The DA felt it was not possible to find a jury that would convict the home owner.
I would say that incident was an exception to the rule.
Vern Humphrey
10-16-2017, 04:13
Massad Ayoob testified in a case where a store owner chased a robber out of the store. The robber turned and fired, the store owner returned fire and killed the robber. The store owner was not charged, but was sued.
When Ayoob was being deposed, he was asked "Do you expect us to believe a little snub-nosed revolver was a danger to the store owner at that distance?" Ayoob replied, "I consider a snub nosed r evolver to be dangerous at a hundred yards. He saw the attorney make a note.
Later, he got some friends and they shot at silhouette targets at 100 yards, signed and dated the targets. During the trial the lawyer asked him, "Didn't you say you consider a snub-nosed revolver dangerous at 100 yards?"
Ayoob smiled and said, "I'm glad you asked me that."
AZshooter
10-16-2017, 09:45
Is it mere coincidence that Massad's last name, spelled backwards is: Booya!
Booya
A verbal expression of victory; usually derisive.
"In your face! Booya!"
... That, in response to the lawyer ...
I have taken Massad's class 3 times - and it is my understanding that you can shoot a fleeing felon under a few very distinct circumstances. You have to have witnessed the felony - you have to believe they would be a severe threat to the safety of others if they escape - and you have exhausted all other methods available to stop them and they would likely escape
Now having said that - I also learned during my ccw class "every bullet has an attorney attached to it"
Will you be arrested - probable - will you be prosecuted - depends upon the state / city and ambitions of the DA, my guess - probably -- will you spend 100,000 plus to defend yourself - oh yeah - will you go to jail - iffy - is the "good shoot" going to be worth it - nope
Now here is the BUT
If they are running down a hall where other family members may be in that direction - I would say you are defending your family from what you believe to be a continued attack and stand a good chance of no conviction
I am not a lawyer - I am not giving legal advice - Simply my opinion based upon training - you mileage may vary
Steve
In a class I took years ago, the deputy DA that was teaching it stressed, "you had better be prepared to convince a jury, that you were in mortal fear of your life, or that of another."
S.A. Boggs
10-18-2017, 03:40
IMHO District Attorneys that I have met have a mindset of their own, everyone is guilty of something and I intend to prove it. Unfortunately DA's will hide evidence, that has been proven time and time again. Personally I feel there should be a time limit on how long they are in office to try and keep them honest.
Sam
Vern Humphrey
10-18-2017, 08:22
In a class I took years ago, the deputy DA that was teaching it stressed, "you had better be prepared to convince a jury, that you were in mortal fear of your life, or that of another."
Absolutely. It helps if you wet your pants and pretend not to notice it until the police call your attention to it.
The OP is scant on details, such as whether the person is in or out of the residence which can be a huge factor in justifiable homicide cases. State laws also vary...a lot, but, generally, lf you can not demonstrate the threat of death or serious bodily injury is present to you or someone else at the instant you pull the trigger be prepared to be charged with aggravated assault, manslaughter attempted murder or murder if you shoot anybody. This is especially true if the person is running away. Again, without knowing the details its hard to tell but I don't know of a state where retribution is grounds for the use of deadly force.
Vern Humphrey
10-21-2017, 09:41
On the other hand, Texas permits the use of deadly force to protect property after dark.
"...not charged, but was sued..." Costs time and money even if you win. The entire question depends on where you are anyway.
"...a little snub-nosed revolver was a danger to the store owner..." Nope, but the criminal shooting it certainly is.
"...Massad's last name..." Ayoob was his last name long before Hollywood invented "Booya!".
On the other hand, Texas permits the use of deadly force to protect property after dark.
This is true. It is also true in some circumstances in the daytime. It is interesting that in Texas it's easier to justify deadly force to protect property, even in cases of misdemeanor theft, than to justify it in defense of yourself or another from death or serious bodily injury:icon_scratch:. It must be noted that this only applies in theft cases so you would have to show an actual theft was in progress to assert the defense.
In Idaho, they are pretty much toast when they break in.
Vern Humphrey
10-22-2017, 05:37
In Arkansas, the law says it is state policy to regard ANY force used by a homeowner to stop an unwanted intruder or arsonist to be reasonable. And if any charges arise is such a case, the judge is required to read the law to the jury.
jon_norstog
10-29-2017, 06:29
The OP is scant on details, such as whether the person is in or out of the residence which can be a huge factor in justifiable homicide cases. State laws also vary...a lot, but, generally, lf you can not demonstrate the threat of death or serious bodily injury is present to you or someone else at the instant you pull the trigger be prepared to be charged with aggravated assault, manslaughter attempted murder or murder if you shoot anybody. This is especially true if the person is running away. Again, without knowing the details its hard to tell but I don't know of a state where retribution is grounds for the use of deadly force.
\My own thought is that if you dispatch the intruder with an edged weapon - that requires you to be up front and personal - you may have better luck claiming "it was me or him."
jn
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