Any opinions on the expected antigun tidal wave?

[Griff Murphey]

I don't think there is anyone on this forum who would say that Cruz, the Florida murderer, should have been buying his AR. Do we as a community stand firm that there is nothing more we can do? I realize that even asking this question will anger a lot of guys on the forum.

I personally think this "troubled youth" thing is a societal issue linked to pressure of social media which encourages the "troubled" to issue these manifestos of death, then carry the threats out. Cruz even announced on social media that he was going to do this.

One thing I kind of like that my New Zealand friend who has an AR says is that in NZ they make guys who want to buy these guns be in a club and the club kind of passes on whether they get to be licensed. The doofuses surface. And don't get the nod. They have no gun crime with the legally registered guns but despite that record the anti-gunners are still after them when illegal guns are used by criminals.

The AR-15 has been commercially available since the early 1960's and I cannot remember any violence with them until Columbine sort of kicked off the trend of school schooling (AR-15s were NOT used in that but I believe the event and Michael Moore's movie served to promote this kind of crime). The biggest problem is that we have a COMPLEX societal problem with the younger generation but we the responsible gun owners are getting the blame from the media.

What do we do or say, Fellows? Nothing? Or...??

[Marty T.]

First, get off the kick that the "gun" did anything. I laid my 410 shotgun beside a box of shells and told it that it was free to load itself and go shoot something. Guess what, it laid there for days and never moved. My point being, guns don't do anything without the person using it. Back in our youth, kids were not drugged up and society had rules that were followed and laws that had a punishment. I heard on the news that some executions were not being carried out because the "drugs used could not be obtained from an agreement between the gov. and the people against capital punishment". WHEN did any of these criminals try to make killing their victims painless. Bring back swift and harsh punishment, get kids off the drugs and start using discipline at home, get God back in our lives and teach that life is a gift from God and that we are to try to make each others lives as good as we can. Gun laws don't work, punishment will.

[clintonhater]

CNN has been conducting an anti-gun marathon that begun yesterday; you know they're dead serious about it when they let up even temporarily on Russian hacking.

[leftyo]

the aussies and newzealanders have their problems too, despite having to have licenses and be in clubs to own guns. the fact is the gun or any other tool isnt the problem. the problem is how the society in this country has raised kids for the last 30 or so years. its all engineered so no one gets their feelings hurt, everyone gets to play sports, no one keeps score, and every single last kid gets a trophy just for showing up. this has led to kids not being able to handle life. when life gets tough, they no longer know how to deal with it and snap. heck now days the kids that arent totally screwed up by this liberal BS dont move out of mommy's house until they are well into their 30's. i am so tired of people pointing the blame at anything other than right where it belongs. finally lets just face the facts that laws dont stop criminals. it was already illegal for this guy to go kill 17 people, it was already against the law to use a firearm in the commission of a crime, so why does anyone think more laws and regulations will do anything? there were never school shoootings in the 50's,60's,70's, and 80's, and the whole time we had guns easily available, and we even had schools you could just walk into. what changed? thats right the liberal sissy way kids are raised.

[Griff Murphey]

Yes but the man with the gun did kill 17. If the movies and media weren't there to tell them what a wonderful statement and 15 minutes of fame they were to receive the AR-15 would not be being smeared as it is.

In my generation as late as the early 60's you still got your butt whipped in school if you deserved it. Today there are no consequences - everything and every kind of lifestyle and violent video game is wonderful - forget God and the golden rule. I can remember when receiving your first gun or driving a car were considered important milestones in assuming "adult responsibility" - sadly today this concept seems to be largely lacking.

[Allen]

First, get off the kick that the "gun" did anything. I laid my 410 shotgun beside a box of shells and told it that it was free to load itself and go shoot something.

If there was any such thing as an "assault rifle" that would define one.

[Tuna]

Ah yes the wonderful Media!! If they would stop talking about something like this day in and day out it might just not influence another young not so bright kid from trying to do it better then the last one. The one that was stopped in Washington stated that is what he was doing by studying all of the past shootings so he could do it better. Personally I do think the age of being able to purchase a firearm, any firearm should be a minimum of 21 years of age. You know our forefathers were very smart men when they set the age to drink and vote at 21. But the liberal politicians thought they could get more votes if they changed it to 18. They were not very bright then and now they are even dimmer.

[dave]

To answer Griff's question on 'what we should do'-----join the NRA, never mind the weak winey arguments about getting requests for money, endorsing pro-gun Dem.'s, not liking this or that about NRA. Numbers are our best weapon against more gun laws and politicians look at the numbers of NRA member's and know that is a lot of votes! And if you do not think that makes them cautious, think again! Every thing congress does has to do with reelection, the country be damned!

[Sunray]

"...What do we do or say..." Politicians don't listen to anything firearms owners have to say. Neither do the media hacks.
"...They have no gun crime..." There's no such thing anywhere. Firearms are inanimate objects that cannot commit crimes of any kind.
The Aussies don't count. No civilian ownership of AR'15's there. Restricted to military, police, and professional vertebrate pest controllers.
This one's from New Zealand.
https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/2017/10/11/police-forget-fifteen-ar15-rifles/
This one is an NZ dealer's site.
"To obtain an AR-15, buyers must have a standard, current firearms licence and an approved police order form.

[Dan Shapiro]

BREAKING: FBI says Jan. 5 tip about the suspected Florida school shooter was received by FBI's Public Access Line but "protocols were not followed" to escalate the tip for further investigation - http://NBCNews.com

This is NOT the same tip re: the YouTube comment that was posted last September.

[barretcreek]

If these defective organisms are allowed to be out in society they will create problems. Period. Violence comes from the mind, not the hands.

Media has created this by giving them their 15 mins. The would be monster in Everett WA put in his diary he wanted the highest body count and to be famous.

[Griff Murphey]

NZ is pretty easy on rifles but they do do split hairs on semiautos. You can license an M-1 as any ordinary sporting rifle if it has the bayonet lug ground off and you agree to use only 5 shot clips in it. The next step up in licensing is an issue M-1 with 8 rd. Clips or such as the AR-15 type rifle with a ten round mag. Bigger mags than that are at the top of their licensing. Live full autos are fairly easy to license but they are not allowed to be fired. Pistols - my kiwi friend shoots borrowed ones in matches occasionally but I don't know exactly how the licensing works for them. As in Australia and England they cannot use a firearm in self defense. In New Zealand they can have an ex military issue Full auto AK or FAL that has been converted to semi only.

And there's no crime committed with legally owned firearms. The small amount of crime committed with guns is invariably committed with illegal ones. Is that better?

Totally agree the age should be raised to 21 to buy any gun.

[jim-d]

[QUOTE=Marty T.;520893]First, get off the kick that the "gun" did anything. I laid my 410 shotgun beside a box of shells and told it that it was free to load itself and go shoot something. Guess what, it laid there for days and never moved. My point being, guns don't do anything without the person using it. Back in our youth, kids were not drugged up and society had rules that were followed and laws that had a punishment. I heard on the news that some executions were not being carried out because the "drugs used could not be obtained from an agreement between the gov. and the people against capital punishment". WHEN did any of these criminals try to make killing their victims painless. Bring back swift and harsh punishment, get kids off the drugs and start using discipline at home, get God back in our lives and teach that life is a gift from God and that we are to try to make each others lives as good as we can. Gun laws don't work, punishment will.[/QU

Comment is on the money

[blackhawknj]

The news "media" (as Fred Allen might say, they're a medium because they do nothing well) have admitted that Cruz bought his gun legally. I note the New York Post has turned coat and urged the legal age for firearms purchases be raised to 21, saying that someone who is only 18 "doesn't have much of a background" ?
Australia ? New Zealand ? I am not enamored of the Commonwealth countries, for us The Constitution is a clearly written document that was explained to and ratified by The People, not some amorphous idea that has "just growed". The Bill of Rights was written in response to specific demands, and foremost in it is the 2A and the "Right of the People...." Having to join a club and allow the members to vote...not much of a right then, is it ? Should someone who wants to drink be required to join a club and have his qualifications debated....
I have read that the Trudeau Government in Canada wants background checks to include "conjugal partners"-tell me that's not going to door to malicious-and false-accusations. As The Wall Street Journal noted in an editorial a few days ago for some a mere allegation is all that is needed. Shades of Stalin's USSR.

[clintonhater]

I note the New York Post has turned coat and urged the legal age for firearms purchases be raised to 21, saying that someone who is only 18 "doesn't have much of a background" ?

There is some logic to that, based on the legal drinking age of 21--which I sure wouldn't want lowered. Not being able to purchase doesn't mean not being able to use--I was given my first at 10, and most states will grant a hunting license at 16 or younger. The 18 yr old who can't find a parent or other adult who trusts him enough to take the responsibility of providing him with a gun, if he wants it, is probably suspect. Yes, it's an imposition on a mature & responsible 18 yr old, but waiting 3 yrs isn't an impossibly heavy cross to bear. Anyway, aren't most mature & responsible 18 yr olds entering college or job training with little money for gun-buying?

[leftyo]

should probably raise the voting age also. if the brains arent there for drinking, or gun ownership, they are not there for intelligent voting either.

[JohnPeeff]

The bottom line is if the FBI / law enforcement would have done their jobs we wound not be talking about this. I suspect their myriad of rules to ensure that no ones "rights are violated" etc .came into play. Once again the Left will blame the gun but will go to the mat to defend HIPPA and medical privacy which you can blame for a lot of these mass shootings.

[Allen]

Here's what Newt thinks.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/02/16/newt-gingrich-after-florida-shootings-heres-practical-proposal-to-protect-our-children.html

[Dick Hosmer]

Remember the words of the Duke's dying uncle (except for Newt, of course).

[clintonhater]

should probably raise the voting age also. if the brains arent there for drinking, or gun ownership, they are not there for intelligent voting either.

No, they absolutely are not! The irrational decision to lower voting age to 18 was based on what some demagogues claimed was the "unfairness" of 18 yr olds being subject to the draft without having a vote. But what does becoming a mindless cog in the military machine have to do with intelligently weighing political options? The LAST thing demanded of a Private is independent thinking!

If voting eligibility was based on knowledge & good judgment, as demonstrated by some fair test, then age would be irrelevant.

[SysAd]

The leftists can't miss the opportunity but nothing will come of it. First, the guy bought legally not for lack of laws but for lack of the government properly populating their beloved database. I believe that's been the case the last two times. Not one of these shootings would have been stopped by putting more laws on the law abiding. Funny how people bent on murder aren't particularly impressed by breaking gun laws too.

That said I am happy to finally see people addressing the real problem, mental illness. That one is a real sticky wicket. I have no idea how to deal with it without trampling all over civil rights, which is probably why everyone would rather attack the tool than the one who wields it.

[Allen]

The leftists can't miss the opportunity but nothing will come of it. First, the guy bought legally not for lack of laws but for lack of the government properly populating their beloved database. I believe that's been the case the last two times. Not one of these shootings would have been stopped by putting more laws on the law abiding. Funny how people bent on murder aren't particularly impressed by breaking gun laws too.

That said I am happy to finally see people addressing the real problem, mental illness. That one is a real sticky wicket. I have no idea how to deal with it without trampling all over civil rights, which is probably why everyone would rather attack the tool than the one who wields it.

Fully agree and since this has come up before it will probably be the next gun related law that gets passed. But, this won't change a thing. Someone who desires to commit a crime with a gun will do so regardless. If they are banned from buying they can buy from an individual or steal one including from police vehicles. Parents seem to be aiding the cause as well by not keeping their guns locked up and properly raising their offspring.

If such a law is passed on being mentally fit there will have to be hard line goals to meet that criteria otherwise our government authorities will just claim that no citizen is mentally fit to own a weapon. That "privilege" would only be for cops, military and criminals.

Bleeding heart liberal judges that would otherwise state that being mentally challenged does not prevent them the freedoms of our constitution will suddenly disappear from the face of the earth.

[PaFrank]

All I know is, that once the Demorats regain power.... and they eventually will... the pendulum will swing the other way, and when that happens....... we are done.

[S.A. Boggs]

You guys give up too easy do what I have done in a rational way. First off don't let them use emotion, use a common sense non-emotional approach. FBI knew a month in advance and did nothing, cops were called to the home 39 times and nothing done. School officials knew and did nothing! Ask the "other side" for an explanation for the "nothing" approach. Ask how ANY new law would have stopped him if nothing had been done by authorities. Once we are sucked into an emotional tirade of theirs we cannot prevail, don't go there! Ask instead that money be set aside to treat those with mental illness, not just brushed aside. I saw money taken from the mentally ill, money for medications to keep them stable, correct length of time in a mental hospital for treatment with medications to treat the illness. Money for the truly sick and maimed of mind, hearing voices that never stop, mood swings that never quit, depression so low that the under side of a snakes belly can be seen by them, watching people stare off into space with no one home...hearing the cry of a little girl asking for her mommy and the little girl in reality is 69 years old. The plight of the truly mentally ill will break your heart and your soul.
Sam

[Jiminvirginia]

Bunch of stuff going on with mass shootings that needs to be addressed. In the recent case it appears there was ample warning that the shooter was off his rocker yet no one took any action.
As far as the AR 15 goes the only thing that seperates it from a "socially acceptable" semi auto is the high capacity mags.

[JB White]

Keep in mind the FBI gets hundreds of calls daily from "concerned" people. Most are the result of either vengeance or overactive imaginations. They can't send in the troops until after a pattern has been cross referenced and established.
Locals can't do anything until AFTER a law has been broken. They have a tough enough time with the normal grind and can't be chasing down people for interviews all week long. That having been said, there were 39 previous complaints at the local level. What type of complaints? Worth assigning a detective to him, or simply think of him as a local trouble maker? The kind LEO's get sick and tired of having to deal with. They probably have more complaints in trailer parks and bars every week than this kid did.

Drugs. So long as they're FDA approved and be labeled as non-addictive everything is sweet. Non-addictive by what standards exactly? Give someone chemicals to reroute neuro paths by triggering different receptors and the personality changes. For how long? Try something different until the brain starts looking for something else?
What if the individual doesn't like being indifferent to everything, blasé, not happy about anything, no real feelings, unconcerned daily. So, they miss a few meds and the mind goes haywire looking for chemicals no longer there.
This is supposed to be a cure? Too many people like to think so. So many people took psych courses in the 70's and 80's they had to create a market so all who hung out a shingle could earn an income. These are the people who are called 'Experts' on things of the mind. Yet any decent neurologist will tell you in all honesty that they only know a minute fraction about how our brains work.

Who is at fault? Voodoo shrinks and their drugs, or the gun?

[clintonhater]

As far as the AR 15 goes the only thing that seperates it from a "socially acceptable" semi auto is the high capacity mags.

Don't be so sure about that! A few anti-gun fanatics seem FINALLY to have grasped the distinction between full & semi-auto--an awesome mental accomplishment for most of them! Consequently, they are now condemning semis too!

[Jiminvirginia]

I think one of the reasons the left is pushing gun control so hard after this Florida incident is that it shows how their policies are failing. The "everyone is ok" type of attitude, etc.
How come this type of thing didnt happen decades ago?

[S.A. Boggs]

I think one of the reasons the left is pushing gun control so hard after this Florida incident is that it shows how their policies are failing. The "everyone is ok" type of attitude, etc.
How come this type of thing didnt happen decades ago?

School killings ae nothing new, I am not discounting what has happened now but it is small compared to what has happened in America's past. Anti-Americans [including our home grown NSAWP] want to use this to continue to take down America to the 3rd world status that Barry and Hillary unsuccessfully tried. Now they are using victimized children for their George Soros's funded idea of THE NEW WORLD ORDER. One of Soros shell corporations/charities most likely will fund any walk on D.C. Soros, a Jew, profited off the death of other Jews with the German NSDAP. Now he is working with the American NSAWP to the same end. His kind and his followers will use the death of millions to further their cause.
Sam

[JB White]

Anti-Americans [including our home grown NSAWP] want to use this to continue to take down America to the 3rd world status that Barry and Hillary unsuccessfully tried.
Sam

Tried? Just because the blood loss has slowed, they are still chopping away. The only reason they appeared to have slowed for a second was to target more points to attack.

[tonybt99]

Grew up in the 50's graduated H.S 1968.Taught public school senior high social studies, coached varsity football for 18 yrs. quit coaching 2001 retired from teaching 2011.Saw this societal change years before we got to this point today. All began when the state issued a Student Bill of Rights . I saw the change in many of my students, taught mostly seniors. There was a growing inability for many of them to deal with or overcome adversity. They would simply quit and give up, and blame everyone or thing for their failure. Saw the change in many of the parents who went from being self sufficient, and disciplinarians to enablers of poor behavior. Got to be we as teachers had to be careful of what we said or did because someones self esteem would be crippled. The parental call to the principal or superintendant was the surprise that awaited us at morning checkin. Guns are an easy target. No one wants to spend the time,effort, or money to get to the root of the problem of why kids are killing kids. No one wants to hold parents, kids, or society accountable or responsible for their actions, or inaction. That takes courage to tell people the truth. I know this is long, but here is an anecdote from my younger days. I remember as if it was yesterday.I was in fourth grade and the family was eating supper. I said to my Dad "dad the older boys are picking on us at recess after lunch" He said"FIGHT BACK" that was it. No phone calls to school. Taught my two daughters the same thing. Never had a problem with anyone bullying them. Thanks for letting me vent. NRA PATRON MEMBER

[Former Cav]

I don't know about all of the other 49 states, but when I USED to live in MN, around 1980 all of the funding was cut for mental hospitals. If I am not mistaken, they either cut it way back or even closed the one in St. Peter, MN and Faribault, MN (both of those were south and south west of the twin cities).
I grew up next to a family that had 11 kids. They had a pair of twins. One of them went into the army and got bit by a snake at Ft. Hood, TX and he DIED. His twin brother (can't remember if he went into the army or not) but he got into dope. He was in St. Peter for a while and they turned him loose. Well, about the 2nd weekend home he stabbed his sisters fiance. His older brother, who was a friend of mine went looking for him and found him and turned him over to the "legal system". He was in and out of mental places but only short term. I don't know if he is in prison now or not.
But the POINT IS. the various gov'ts as in FED, STATE, etc, think they are going to SAVE MONEY when they turn these people loose. So tell me,
where did you save the money? WHO paid to get the fiance stitched up? WHO is paying for incarcerating these people in prisons? HOW much MONEY did we save??? How about ZERO! and all we got is more problems.
I tried to help a high school buddy years ago who was NOT insane but he had an IQ of about 85 !! He would work real hard. But you could not get him to wrench on a car. He'd either not turn the bolt tight enough, or he'd twist the darned thing off. I knew he could fix a toilet, put in a wax seal and paint. I hired him to be a caretaker of an 11 unit building, and I had to do the hardest thing I had to do, and that was FIRE and EVICT him as he was SCARING all of the renters away, some of whom had been in that building 30 years! We got him to a shrink on our own nickle, another high school friend got it all set up. He got down to ONE PILL and he was so "normal" he got married and lived happily for about 3 years. One day, he decided he no longer needed this pill. Then poof, his marriage ended, everything ended, and he ended up in some public housing. BTW... this guy also had a severe case of PTSD from nam. I knew him before and after and the VA had him on about 40 pills before we got him fixed up. THANKFULLY he DIED!! I've prayed for him many times and I hope the good Lord has him but I don't know if he was smart enough to ask the Lord for forgiveness. I told him many times.
You can't FIX mentally ill people !!!!!!!!!!!! So why turn them loose on society?

[togor]

I would be very surprised if you saw any changes in laws at the Federal level, even after this one. If anything changes at all, it's just regulatory clean-up, like the military reporting dishonerable discharges to NICS. New legislation signed into law? I don't see it happening.

[Roadkingtrax]

I would be very surprised if you saw any changes in laws at the Federal level, even after this one. If anything changes at all, it's just regulatory clean-up, like the military reporting dishonerable discharges to NICS. New legislation signed into law? I don't see it happening.

State voter initiatives are what concerns me the most.

[clintonhater]

State voter initiatives are what concerns me the most.

You'd better be concerned: "The children," with all their "NRA=Murder" signs, and other expressions of logical-reasoning & deep-thinking, have said they'll be descending on Florida's capital right away--the warm-up for their planned Million Teeny Bopper March on DC later in the year.

And even legislators friendly to the "gun-lobby" (that is, you & me) will find it hard to put them in their place, exactly as it is when they're confronted by hostile women & minorities, because PC demands that such groups be given a pass for outrageous conduct not tolerated among white males.

[Sandpebble]

In no other nation on earth have children witnessed as much of this in their schools.... and certainly in no other nation on earth would those children be ridiculed for their points of view after the carnage they witnessed .... like the ridicule they've received from frightened people on Culvers Political forum ...

.... thats the way of the land ..... so... what anti gun tidal wave ? ..... we all aquired more firearms under 8 yrs of Obama than ever before in history ....

and now.... we are going to have an anti gun tidal wave. ?

nope... we are gonna sit on our hands and do f" all .... and not give a thought to the fact that all those kids that have witnessed this..... will be old enough to vote next election ...

we failed... plain and simple ... they are going to show us whats what .... enjoy the toys while you can

[Griff Murphey]

I think a fair question that should be asked is: "What about the changes in our society?"
AR-15s have been on the civilian market since 1964 - 54 years. M-1 carbines were certainly available 10 years before that. So what's happened in American Society to make the MORAL BARRIER to killing innocent people fall so far? I personally think this is the larger issue...

But don't expect the idiots on TV to bother bringing that up.

[Roadkingtrax]

You'd better be concerned: "The children," with all their "NRA=Murder" signs, and other expressions of logical-reasoning & deep-thinking, have said they'll be descending on Florida's capital right away--the warm-up for their planned Million Teeny Bopper March on DC later in the year.

And even legislators friendly to the "gun-lobby" (that is, you & me) will find it hard to put them in their place, exactly as it is when they're confronted by hostile women & minorities, because PC demands that such groups be given a pass for outrageous conduct not tolerated among white males.

I called it. The screaming kids on the CNN mic are going to be the most influential and emotionally driven response. We are ingrained to protect children, like a bunch of buffalos pushing the young into the middle. Hard to fight our human nature.

How do we proactively counter this new youth inspired false dichotomy in the news?

[Griff Murphey]

Especially when it was one of their own that did the crime...

[Sandpebble]

Especially when it was one of their own that did the crime...

I'm sorry Sir ... but thats passing the buck ..


it wasn't one of "their own" at all.... it was one of "our own"

[clintonhater]

in no other nation on earth would those children be ridiculed for their points of view after the carnage they witnessed ....

Explain to me how drawing attention to "thinking" that's not merely puerile but nonsensical, like calling NRA "murderers," falls into the category of ridicule. It's calling a spade a spade, unpopular as that is in PC America.

[clintonhater]

How do we proactively counter this new youth inspired false dichotomy in the news?

I don't know, except it's bound to cost money. Lots of money, because this "false dichotomy" is going to be hyped relentlessly by the media & Hollywood--billions in free publicity! Best way to collect & disperse the funds needed is through NRA.

[Griff Murphey]

Sandpebble:
Yes you could say I am passing the buck because we adults have allowed others to build this country into the looney bin that allows kids to grow up with the attitude that society owes them perfect happiness and love... And if society falls short they must compose this elaborate manifesto of death, send it around, and... Once posted on social media they feel they must carry through and murder their classmates.
I think we all ask ourselves how we got to this point... We sat on our reputations while Dr. Spock took discipline out of the home and schools. We ended the draft which for so many years was the period on the end of childhood. Young men no longer had to man up. And we handed the kids little electronic screens that they began to live by trying to please each other and avoid being "dissed." And by the way we took prayer out of the schools. As families so many of us stopped going to church.
Yes I think we all stood there while these changes along with violent media and video games changed American youth. They are not the same young men we were and can no longer be trusted the way we were. Yes I am passing the buck. Right to the corporate interests, media moguls, pundits of psychiatry and morality, agnostics, and others who remodeled our society and particularly our schools, to match their vision (and to benefit their profit).

[Sandpebble]

Explain to me how drawing attention to "thinking" that's not merely puerile but nonsensical, like calling NRA "murderers," falls into the category of ridicule. It's calling a spade a spade, unpopular as that is in PC America.

Thinking ??.... you might be "thinking" about your beloved guns ...

Others might be.... just maybe... thinking of their dead friends or children ... and thats where we differ....

If we refuse to recognize the cause of their dislike of of our toys .... then we will eventually pay the price. The Constitution will only last as long as the majority feels it is in their own best interest ...

[Sandpebble]

Sandpebble:
Yes you could say I am passing the buck because we adults have built this country into the looney bin that allows kids to grow up with the attitude that society owes them perfect happiness and love... And if society folks short they must compose this elaborate manifesto... Once posted on social media they feel they must carry through and murder their classmates.
I think we all ask ourselves how we got to this point... We sat on out reputatiins while Dr. Spock took discipline out of the home and schools. We ended the draft which fir so many years was the period on the end of childhood. Young men no longer had to man up. And we handed the kids little electronic screens that they began to live by trying to please each other and avoid being "dissed." And by the way we took prayer out of the schools.
Yes I think we all stood there while these changes along with violent media and video games changed American youth. They are not the same young men we were and can no longer be trusted the way we were. Yes I am passing the buck. Right to the corporate interests, media moguls, pundits of psychiatry and morality, agnostics, and others who remodeled our society and particularly our schools, to their vision (and profit).

Sorry Griff.... we aren't really taling about kids growing up in a society that owes them perfect happiness and love ....

we're talking about a society that has countless kids witnessing shootings in their schools ..... if we ever wanted our children to take an interest in politics ..... there could have been a better issue .

blame whoever you want ... pro gun NRA ... leftist commie teachers ... dems ... repugs .. but those victims in all our school shootings aren't to blame for those shootings ...

nor should they be blamed for the conclusions they come to after the fact ...

[togor]

Sandpebble, they make you king and you get to set the gun rules for the land. What would you do? A tough question, but not a snide one. Trying to understand where you would take things.

[Sandpebble]

Sandpebble, they make you king and you get to set the gun rules for the land. What would you do? A tough question, but not a snide one. Trying to understand where you would take things.

If I were King Togor... I'd have to look at the other "civilized " nations that do not have the problem that we certainly do.

I'm not so critical of New Zealands ideas. Want to own an AR ?... no prob really except that you not only have to pass some very strict back ground checks... you have to be given the OK from members of a gun affilliation { club}.... you know... your peers. Almost like when I bought my Once In Your Life Time M1 from the Directorate of Civilian Marksmanship.

That M1 wasn't my right ... I earned the purchase through proof of involvement in competitive shooting with others of a like mind.

New Zealands ideas makes everyone a little responsible. I would also take the NRA's own recomendations and turn them into law ...

You allowed your child access to a firearm he brought to school... you go to jail. You "loaned" your gun to friend that commited a crime with it, or straw purchase... sorry ... do not pass go. Don't want to keep the guns in a safe ? OK... someone uses your easly accesable gun ... jail. Accidental shootings ... same thing... If you follow the most basic NRA gun handling procedures no one would ever be harmed... if you don't and someone is harmed... jail.

A few regs like New Zealands are not taking anyones Constitutional rights away ... In my eye it just seems to be a method of making sure I don't lose them. Give a little.. keep a lot..... and do we need mention the lives?....

The amount of firearms in this country in the hands of loonies, druggies , thieves, etc etc and the consequences, far surpasses any where else in the world....

nope... our laws haven't stopped all this .... but neither have we with our present mindset

[Griff Murphey]

Well you are free to make judgements but I did not mention the New Zealanders' regs by accident. Mind you, despite NO mass shootings and virtually being free of gun related crime, the anti's are all over the NZ gun owners like a cheap suit. If we back "reasonable gun laws" the reality is there are 8 million AR platform guns in civilian hands in America and the last mass shooting is a long way away from having happened. And you can bet they will blame us even long after the very last legally registered one has been confiscated.

That said we may as well come up with "something." Unfortunately we'll still have the same millennial school and university sickos to deal with.

[clintonhater]

nor should they be blamed for the conclusions they come to after the fact ...

Irrationality is blameless? Though I'll acknowledge that their irrationality isn't entirely their own--they have merely tapped in to a left-wing crusade that began long before any one could have imagined school-shootings. Nothing justifies madness.

[Sandpebble]

Well you are free to make judgements but I did not mention the New Zealanders' regs by accident. Mind you, despite NO mass shootings and virtually being free of gun related crime, the anti's are all over the NZ gun owners like a cheap suit. If we back "reasonable gun laws" the reality is there are 8 million AR platform guns in civilian hands in America and the last mass shooting is a long way away from having happened. And you can bet they will blame us even long after the very last legally registered one has been confiscated.

That said we may as well come up with "something." Unfortunately we'll still have the same millennial school and university sickos to deal with.

as you say "And you can bet they will blame us even long after the very last legally registered one has been confiscated. "

well we've always fought registration .. haven't we ?

Sure all those 8 million platform ARs were purchased through a NICs .... but I'm betting more than half were sold private sale the first month rent was hard to come by.

and as far as blame us ? ..... you were expecting someone else to take the blame ... all of us own this... each and every one

[Griff Murphey]

I disagree. After Sandy Hook the best deal Obama, Schumer, Pelosi et al would give us was to bury the guns with the owners. They had a majority in congress. Had they come up with something remotely reasonable they could easily have enacted a "reasonable" step. Naturally we opposed it and will never accept confiscation under any circumstances.

[Jiminvirginia]

And another point ... to show how distorted this all becomes..... and the current "target" of the gun control folks is the AR-15. Seemingly forgetting that the Virginia Tech shooting, 32 killed, was done with two handguns. One I believe was a .22 rimfire.

[Art]

What's going to happen?

Well gridlock in this country is so well established and the fear of giving the other side a "victory" on anything so entrenched right now that I don't think anything will happen at the Federal level except a possible narrowing of the ability of people to do private transfers. Remember, Donald Trump doubled the number of "DACA" folks eligible for amnesty and the other side won't give in because Trump's price is a reduced size wall that they actually agreed to years ago and that's a lot less contentious than the gun issue. So we've gotten to the point that, politically, even if you give people what they say they want they won't take it.

However, mass killings with firearms in this country, while a small part of the total number of homicides, has reached critical mass. John Cornyn, (R. Texas) has already put out feelers to Dianne Feinstein about some form of new gun regs and Trump, who I've always considered a "squish" on gun rights has said he'd sign legislation about tightening up background checks. With all that, though, anything that happens on the Federal level, I suspect will be around the margins.

I saw a recent poll suggesting that gun ownership is at the lowest level ever down from the high in 1994. I strongly suspect those numbers but they will be used to goad swing state voters and legislators to support some kind of legislative solution. A similar thing was done in 1993 to get the "Assault Weapons Ban" put in the crime control act and that turned out to be a snare and a delusion for the Dems.

With that in mind; I do think that an increasing number of states will continue to enact more and more restrictive gun laws though. Florida is now a "Purple" state and I would not be surprised to see some gun control legislation pass there in the wake of this slaughter. It might be a raising of the age to buy at firearm to 21, a waiting period, a magazine capacity limit, a total ban on any sales that do not include a background check or some combination of those or other restrictions.

Now to get a few of things off my chest.

That we're at the point where we're almost surely going to have to have armed policemen in every school in the country to keep them from becoming shooting galleries is a disgrace. It is a sign of a cultural sickness. It is also a manifestation of the almost pornographic mesmerization people have when it comes to violence The media constantly feeds off the loop of this stuff (the people, God love 'em eat it up) and in so doing actually helps perpetuate a seemingly endless stream of emotionally disturbed retribution seeking copycats in addition to the terrorist nut jobs we have to deal with.

I am aware of the simple fact that a bullet through the head can change the mind. The fact that a person who is maimed, or has a relative who has been killed or maimed by a nut with a gun becomes an anti gunner doesn't make that person the Anti Christ. I have no personal animosity against people in those categories, in fact I sympathize though I usually oppose their agendas. These people are powerful advocates for the other side and every time a loon pulls off another one of these atrocities it creates more people who were once perhaps indifferent to the issue or even pro gun rights who join the ranks of the anti gunners.

This country is the only nation on the planet I know of that has a Constitutional Right to own a firearm. Contrary to what others will say it isn't a "Divine Right." While I don't see it happening, the Constitution provides the means to abolish the right through the amendment process. I know of know body of belief or scripture of any extant religion that affirms the right of private individuals to be armed. This is a fragile cultural condition unique to the United States and that alone is an issue that makes gun rights a target of the "antis" who view the possession of firearms, or for that matter any weapons as a symptom of a pathology. They look on us as misguided and selfish at best or evil at worst. By the way, those of you who think the most extreme element of the firearms abolitionist crowd don't include you in that category be cause there is a "D" on your voter registration card are sadly mistaken.

[leftyo]

its all just fear mongering, we see it on this forum too. sadly way too many want to blame an inanimate object, and just can not see for themselves that laws do not prevent crimes.

[Griff Murphey]

Well said, Art!

[clintonhater]

and as far as blame us ? ..... you were expecting someone else to take the blame

Absolutely! Those who since the '60s have been indoctrinating kids in the attitude of "I'm all that counts" & "if it feels good, do it."

[blackhawknj]

Perhaps they need some sort of drill-fire drills, anyone ? "Duck and Cover" ?
I am not going to blame the FBI, I don't want them functioning as the nation's Thought Police ? Law enforcement ? If they arrested everyone who ran off at the mouth, made threats-we'd need our version of the GULAG.
In New Jersey in the 1950-60s the word that struck fear and terror into young males and kept them on the straight and narrow was-Jamesburg. The state's main reform school, back then the idea behind reform school was keep them off the streets and away from decent people. Lousy food, harsh treatment. It was like Columbia House for Berliners in the 1930s and the Lubyanka for generations of Muscovites, the mere thought of it sent shivers down spines.
Armed police ? That are readily identifiable and visible ? How about teams of kids, give them basic martial arts instruction, train them to function as a team, to react. I read that one of the patrons at the Pulse Nightclub threw something at the shooter.
Thanks to stupid laws like the Civil Rights of Institutionalized persons Act prison is a joke. One Congressman said of Jeffrey Dahmer that he was sentenced to three meals, a roof over his head, medical care, computer access, weight rooms, etc.

[clintonhater]

Law enforcement ? If they arrested everyone who ran off at the mouth, made threats-we'd need our version of the GULAG.

It had been previously known that the Florida psychopath had gone WAY beyond running off at the mouth. For one thing, it's been shown time & again that cruelty to animals is always the first "expression" of a severely psychopathic personality--not any kind of "passing phase," but a clear sign that something worse is certain to happen in the future. But liberal social policies demand that such individuals always receive "the benefit of the doubt," rather than being immediately put in a place where they can do no harm to others.

[m1ashooter]

Well spoken Art.

[barretcreek]

http://thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/behind-various-anti-gun-movements-popping-parkland/

Clooney and Oprah have each pledged $500K. They have a well trained theatrical troop to parade in front of the Ministry of Propaganda. Fortunately summer vacation is a long way off in terms of teenage time frame.

[Griff Murphey]

One common thread in the three school shootings below college level that everyone talks about is that in each case the killers were under 21. Harris and Klebold were 17 and 18, Adam Lanza, who stole his gun from his mother, was 20, and Cruz was 19.

The two college shootings (Virginia Tech and Umpqua College) were done by a 22 year old and a 26 year old.

Clearly we are dealing with a new breed of youth much more likely to launch these type of attacks.

[jsaviano]

Of course, The high school kids are in high school, hense their age is high school age. The kids in college are college age. Makes sense to me.

[jon_norstog]

Griff, back to your original question, I think the American tradition is to look to an interest group to help police itself. Kinda like the Taylor Grazing Act and the Grazing Committees. I raised the question once myself and did not , aaah, find much interest on this list. I don't see the NRA doing anything but dig in its heels and throw money at Republicans running for office.

There may be some kind of federal law, but the real action will be at the state level. A lot of states will ban semi-autos with a magazine over 5 shots, or ban semi-autos completely, or require licensing aND registration. Meanwhile there are tens of millions of those guns out there, just counting ARs, SKSes and AKs. The toothpaste is already out of the tube. There might be agitation for a federal buyback, but that would have to be a couple thou per gun to get owners to part with their iron. Mass confiscation at any level of government won't get past the Heller decision and any attempt at it would get hit with an injunction.

I've got a houseful of guns but no semi-auto. Maybe a .22 for grouse if I found one I liked. Maybe an M-1 ...


jn

[Griff Murphey]

Griff, back to your original question, I think the American tradition is to look to an interest group to help police itself. Kinda like the Taylor Grazing Act and the Grazing Committees. I raised the question once myself and did not , aaah, find much interest on this list. I don't see the NRA doing anything but dig in its heels and throw money at Republicans running for office.

There may be some kind of federal law, but the real action will be at the state level. A lot of states will ban semi-autos with a magazine over 5 shots, or ban semi-autos completely, or require licensing aND registration. Meanwhile there are tens of millions of those guns out there, just counting ARs, SKSes and AKs. The toothpaste is already out of the tube. There might be agitation for a federal buyback, but that would have to be a couple thou per gun to get owners to part with their iron. Mass confiscation at any level of government won't get past the Heller decision and any attempt at it would get hit with an injunction.

I've got a houseful of guns but no semi-auto. Maybe a .22 for grouse if I found one I liked. Maybe an M-1 ...


jn
Jon:
I have the utmost respect for you; I do detect little tinge of "I don't own any so it's not my problem." The Washington Navy Yard shootings were done basically with a duck gun, likely so were the Aurora movies theater shootings as Holmes' AR-15 jammed with his 100 rd. drum mag; although AFAIK the full post event details have never emerged. I think a Winchester 92 would be equally a great "assault" weapon for a horrific murder, let us not forget Whitman killed 34 with bolt action sporting rifles. And... the vast majority of murders in America are done with handguns. The idea that confiscation (even if it were to be possible which it is, as you say, NOT...) would prevent all mass killings is just plain ludicrous, I'm with you on that.
15 Australian backpackers were killed by arson in 2015. They still have massacres, look up Australian massacres on google.
For years when I hunted turkeys with my AR-15, I used a blocked 5 rd. mag; not to be more "sporting," but to ensure deliberate fire. Now that we sometimes see hogs I usually put 7-8 in a 20 rd. mag. No sense in carrying unnecessary weight.

[blackhawknj]

We will see a lot of use and abuse of "psychiatry", "gun violence restraining orders", etc. All attempts to eliminate the idea that the 2A confers a right.

[S.A. Boggs]

Griff, back to your original question, I think the American tradition is to look to an interest group to help police itself. Kinda like the Taylor Grazing Act and the Grazing Committees. I raised the question once myself and did not , aaah, find much interest on this list. I don't see the NRA doing anything but dig in its heels and throw money at Republicans running for office.

There may be some kind of federal law, but the real action will be at the state level. A lot of states will ban semi-autos with a magazine over 5 shots, or ban semi-autos completely, or require licensing aND registration. Meanwhile there are tens of millions of those guns out there, just counting ARs, SKSes and AKs. The toothpaste is already out of the tube. There might be agitation for a federal buyback, but that would have to be a couple thou per gun to get owners to part with their iron. Mass confiscation at any level of government won't get past the Heller decision and any attempt at it would get hit with an injunction.

I've got a houseful of guns but no semi-auto. Maybe a .22 for grouse if I found one I liked. Maybe an M-1 ...


jn
If we don't stand together we will surely hang separately but hang we will. I have no use for the bump stock but I don't want to see them banned. I have seen guys hold rifles loose or put a stout rubber band on them and simulate fire. 45 years ago telescopic sight were "snipers" tools for killing people so it goes on and on. National Socialists are like water always trying to find a crack in the wall to come in and destroy the wall.
Sam

[togor]

I don't favor a ban but articles like this lay an objective foundation from which the banners can work.

www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/what-i-saw-treating-the-victims-from-parkland-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/

News of the short range lethality of M193 brings no surprise to anyone here. Shot placement doesn't matter nearly as much as with a handgun.

[1972Doug]

This was allowed to happen by the FB! and media to get the the focus off the Russian investication going sour

[Gaffer]

This anti-gun thing against the AR -15 is certainly the gun haters field day. They could not wait to jump on the bandwagon to outlaw them and the media is supportive in its help. What is happening is changes in our culture and society are bringing out the nut jobs and giving them the courage to act out their hate. Those who cannot see the changes in of society have their heads in the sand. What with the proliferation of social media there is people with mental illness who are encouraged to do things that would not have happened 30-40 years ago. Guns are but one on many reasons why these acts of violence occur. Our society is overflowing with evil today in its music, videos and Internet. Without strong parental upbringing many kids are potential timebombs. As a nation we are in big trouble!

[Griff Murphey]

I don't favor a ban but articles like this lay an objective foundation from which the banners can work.

www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/what-i-saw-treating-the-victims-from-parkland-should-change-the-debate-on-guns/553937/

News of the short range lethality of M193 brings no surprise to anyone here. Shot placement doesn't matter nearly as much as with a handgun.

ER physicians, probably few of whom hunt nowadays, see mostly handgun wounds. Most have no idea of the devastating wounds normal big game rifles make, compared to a .223.

[jon_norstog]

Jon:
I have the utmost respect for you; I do detect little tinge of "I don't own any so it's not my problem." The Washington Navy Yard shootings were done basically with a duck gun, likely so were the Aurora movies theater shootings as Holmes' AR-15 jammed with his 100 rd. drum mag; although AFAIK the full post event details have never emerged. I think a Winchester 92 would be equally a great "assault" weapon for a horrific murder, let us not forget Whitman killed 34 with bolt action sporting rifles. And... the vast majority of murders in America are done with handguns. The idea that confiscation (even if it were to be possible which it is, as you say, NOT...) would prevent all mass killings is just plain ludicrous, I'm with you on that.
15 Australian backpackers were killed by arson in 2015. They still have massacres, look up Australian massacres on google.
For years when I hunted turkeys with my AR-15, I used a blocked 5 rd. mag; not to be more "sporting," but to ensure deliberate fire. Now that we sometimes see hogs I usually put 7-8 in a 20 rd. mag. No sense in carrying unnecessary weight.

Griff, I think that if I hunted hogs I would want a semi ... probably the Ruger .44 carbine. The Heller decision left state and local government a lot of leeway on regulating firearms use and ownership, outside of an outright ban. Why I think gun laws will continue to be state laws.

Everyone thought Obama was going to push for federal gun laws. Didn't happen, because he wanted to use his political capital on healthy care. After the 2010 midterm he didn't have enough votes to pass anything.

Trump says he is for a national gun law on Wednesday, gets his chain yanked on Thursday and now he says it's up to the states. That's how politics works.

Have a good weekend!

jn

[Griff Murphey]

I actually have a story about that. I hunted hogs on a game ranch about 25-30 years ago and was hunting with a Browning copy of an 1895 Winchester in '06 using 180 gr. Soft points . Being Mr. Safety I was carrying it with nothing in the chamber so there were 4 in the gun. Shot one offhand 75 yards and he went down. Then he got better, got back up, and charged. Shot #2 and he's coming hard was a miss. Shot 3 knocks him down again and again he gets up. Shot 4 finally ended it with him about 15 feet away. My buddy filmed it with my old full size vhs camera. I wish I could find that tape. He's saying "He's chargin' ya Murph and yer runnin' outa shells!"