Johnson Automatic replacement barrels

[milboltnut]

I just picked up one for a decent price and the muzzle gauges 1+...

I know it's a two groove... and it resembles the Remington A3 design..

https://postimg.org/image/7btnq4s2b/

drawing to the right...



Does anyone know what the Johnson Automatic design was?

[Tuna]

It was the Johnson automatic rifle made in Providence Rhode Island early 1940's. Since the Marines could not get the M1 Garand they got the Johnson rifle. They tested them in combat and realty liked them. The Dutch took delivery of some in 7x57 for their forces in Java.

[Tuna]

It was the Johnson automatic rifle made in Providence Rhode Island early 1940's. Since the Marines could not get the M1 Garand they got the Johnson rifle. They tested them in combat and realty liked them. The Dutch took delivery of some in 7x57 for their forces in Java. It could be loaded from standard five shot clips or by single rounds. Magazine built in held 10 rounds. Only real problem was the barrel was long and it had no for a bayonet.

[milboltnut]

no I mean the 2 groove bore ... was it by JA? I'm guessing that they used Remington's design.

[Tuna]

No it was an expedient measure to help increase production done at the request of the US military and yes JA did make their own barrels. I am not sure who started production first with the two grove barrels. As there was no continuing contract for JA to make rifles that would mean they switched over to replacement barrels. But it may have been much earlier as the US was sending 1917 rifles to the British commonwealth before we entered WW2. And if that is the case then the need for new barrels would be about the same time so it would seem that JA was making 2 grove rifle barrels first??

[milboltnut]

High Standard made barrels for Springfeild 03's and SA put their stamp on the HS barrels. So I think it's quite possible JA could be made by Remington.

[Tuna]

But I have never seen a two grove HS or Springfield marked barrel. All I have seen are four grove barrels. I do know that Johnson did make their own barrels for the Johnson rifle so I would not be surprised it they made the replacements themselves. And they were making barrels before I think Remington got the contract for the 03's in what, early 1942? The 1917 barrels were for use with Lend Lease rifles being sent to the British empire. The UK, Canada, etc. in 1940 or so as well as Rifles going to the Philippines and China a bit later.

[fjruple]

Tuna--

You are bit confused on the time line for the M1917 replacement barrel production. The initial shipment of the M1917 to the Brits were taken directly out of US Ordnance stocks and shipped to the UK. It was bit of an emergency as the UK lost quite a bit of rifles at Dunkirk. This shipment was before the Lend-Lease program came into being. The UK received the M1917s covered with cosmoline (which the Home Guard which they complained about) received as replacement for their No.1 MKIII which transferred to the Regular Army folks. But it was an emergency. It would have taken months to unpack, clean and repack the M1917s for shipment. Later shipments were covered under Lend-Lease. The replacement barrels were for all of the M1917s that needed to be rebuilt from the training programs in the US. The Philippines military received their M1917s in 1935 and these rifles were lost when the Japanese invaded the islands in 1941-42.

--fjruple

[milboltnut]

fjruple...



The replacement barrels were for all of the M1917s that needed to be rebuilt from the training programs in the US

So any 17's that are RIA, HS, or JA that are in surplus here were exclusively used for U.S. Army Training?



The initial shipment of the M1917 to the Brits and

Later shipments were covered under Lend-Lease.


So the ones in surplus circulation here in the U.S. come from the U.K.... and were they marked by the UK? other than the red paint stripe ?

I would assume that an emergency of the initial shipment would say no.


Would you substantiate your info? You have library I take it?

[Tuna]

Quite a few of the 1917 rifles here came from Denmark. They had been sent to Canada as part of the Lend Lease program. I think Canada just put them in storage and after the war sent on to Denmark. They were not shot much if at all and other then the front sight blades needing replacement when imported back here, they were good rifles and shot very well.

[milboltnut]

where do you get your info? I'd like to read up on it.

[Tuna]

It was standard knowledge when Century imported them from Denmark years ago. I bought an Eddystone for the sum of $99 at a local dealer. Nice shape with a perfect bore and it would shoot an inch or less at 100 yards with almost anything that was shot in it. It was 100% Eddystone too.

[fjruple]

fjruple...




So any 17's that are RIA, HS, or JA that are in surplus here were exclusively used for U.S. Army Training? Not all, initially there was a critical shortage of .30-06 rifles at America's entry into WWII having given a large number to the Brits in 1940. America really was not looking at getting WWII but as we known the Japanese had other ideas. Additionally the US had lost at least 300,000 M1917 rifles plus other materials at the fall of the Philippines in mid 1942. Initially the M1917 were used in training and some non-front line combat units, like Chemical Mortar units and Military Police. As the M1 Rifle and M1 Carbine came into full production the M1917 became available for Lend-Lease, additional numbers went to the Brits, as well as France and China. Some the Chinese ones were converted in India to a shorten length, stock and barrel for General Stilwell's Chinese troops.


and



So the ones in surplus circulation here in the U.S. come from the U.K.... and were they marked by the UK? other than the red paint stripe ?

I would assume that an emergency of the initial shipment would say no. The marking of reimports of military surplus was only a recent requirement. After the war, The UK was dumping cases of small arms into the ocean to get rid of them. I have been told that the Brits would drill holes into the wooden crates to let the salt water in and take the cases to the ocean and dump them. This costs money. Interarms run by a fellow named Sam Cummings just about purchased every last P14 and M1917 that the Brits had left in the late 50's and early 60's. He also bought a lot of other goodies as well. This saved the Brits of drilling the crates and moving them to a barge and then moving out to sea to dump which costs money. Since Interarms purchased the guns directly from the Ministry of Defence and they were not going to the British civilian market no proof testing was required. Those that made it to the states were purchased and used into custom rifle builds. Also Bubba did his thing as well. Its possible that some of these rifles were Lend-Lease in later shipments and could be rebuilds. Other than the Red Paint on the foreend with .300 in black on them there generally was no broad arrow property marking on the stock. I have seen Canadian M1917 with the C with the broad arrow property, some marked RCAF "Royal Canadian Air Force" and others with a NZ with board arrow property mark for New Zealand.


Would you substantiate your info? You have library I take it? OK!! Here's some reading for you. "Arming the Home Guard, 1940-1944" Chapter 3"; United States Rifle Model of 1917 by C.S. Ferris especially the footnotes, most people do not like reading them but I do; .303 Pattern 14 and US Model 1917 Rifles, Charles R. Stratton US Caliber .30, M1917 Development and Production 1917-1945, Aug 1945 Small Arms Division, Chief of Ordnance, Washington , DC; America's Munitions 1917-1918; The American Rifle, Townsend Whelen, 1918; Ordnance and the Great War, Chapter V - Rifles; The UK Pattern 1913, Pattern 1914 and the US Model of 1917-A short History of the "American Enfield" Marc Gorelick; and Deadly Business, Samuel Cummings, Interarms and the Arms trade 1983. Here's a few to keep you busy for a while.

[milboltnut]

Thank You... appreciate your help !! Finally someone who doesn't get bent out of shape when asked for and provides sources !!

[RC20]

Historical wise, the 1917s when packed away were found to have corrosion developing.

They pulled some out, found the original packing was not working and redid them, but when they started to take them out for WWII issue (Philippines, GB, China) they found that the program had not fully handled the developing corrosion and they had a lot of rifles with bad barrels.

As those were too early for the replacement barrel program, they either over shipped or sorted out. GB shipment notes they were still packed, so if a bad barrel was found then they would have used it for parts (or tested to find out if it was good enough)

Philippines they send a huge number of excess rifle for parts. Likely packed as well.

It was in 1942 that RIA began to overhaul the 1917s due to the shortage of rifles the US saw coming.

The issue is a bit murky as RIA was both overhauling and assembly new rifles from parts.

Remington supplied the RIA blanks, RIA finished the barrels and marked them as their.

JA began making spare barrel in November of 1942

HS: I have not found a date for them.

[RC20]

Models of 1917 had many uses, a few saw US frontline combat, many saw combat with the Free French Forces (which were outfitted with those from GB)

Mostly they served as secondary weapons.

Sea Bs were issued those. Probably the only significant use they saw in serious combat use with US forces.

Chemical Corp (smoke shells etc) were issued those rifles. Close to combat but not in direct contact.

Rear guard functions, POW etc would be another major use. M1s being issued to combat troops.

Canada saw a plethora of use. Lots of supported entities including one reference to their forestry division. RCAF for guards and who knows what else.

The Philippines of course saw use until the surrender and then after with Guerillas. Japan used them until the US Forces took Philippines back. For some reason recovered 1917s were burned (I have seen the pictures of that) None has ever been noted to have been brought back to US. Between the bad environment and the burning if any came back they were not documented in any way.

China used them and there have been a few examples that have found their way back to the US from Vietnam and Asia.

[JohnPeeff]

I brought back a captured Eddystone 17 from Vietnam Dec 68. I don't remember much about it except it was in poor shape. I gave it to a friends father who as I remember was going to use the action for a sporter.

[RC20]

I could see that in an era of M16, Ak etc a 1917 would stand out big time.

Philippines, circa 1944 (45?) ehhh, vs an M1 or a sniper 1903. and the burning of them.

A lot of my info is Ferris (have to read the notes now!) rest is gathered history from so many sources I can get them all in.

[milboltnut]

Savage got the Rem blanks then RIA got them... Ferris

[RC20]

Yes. RIA put their stamp on them not Remington. Odd stuff

I would think HS got into the business about the same time as the barrel orders were being placed.

Nothing to back that up.

[lyman]

wondering if John Stimson would know,
he is the end all guru for High Standard pistols, and has most if not all of the records ,

might be worth an ask,

http://www.histandard.info/

[RC20]

Sometimes I get into the weeds too far. Relevant to this.

The two grove was WWII approved standard as a cost and possibly proud-ion improvement option.

It was tested and found to be as accurate as the current to them 4 grove and 6 grove and or met the accuracy standards.

The design as it were for the JA was 1903 not 1917 (right not left twist and the groves were US depth not Brit depth) - the only difference was the threads for the 1917 (and the cut for the front sight)

HS shipped 4 and 6 grove barrels throughout the war. Their take was it would cost them more time to convert to a two grove system than it saved at anything. That would be somewhat analogous to the 1917 i9tsel in WWI that it was vastly quicker and workable to convert tithe P14 to 30-06 than to convert W, R and E operation to building 1903s.

The shape of the lead into the groves is square I believe (again this is from memory) 1917 was more tapered.

So in all respects its a 1903 barrel. Oddly the chamber is cut the same as 1917 (pretty close to field reject)

Remington I did a mix of 4 grove and two grove barrels for the 1903A3 - shifting over two grove after 1943 or so. As they were making gobs of 1903s, every little bit of mfg efficiency made a difference.

[Darreld Walton]

The Johnson 17 barrels I've looked at are indeed two groove, however, they do not resemble the Remington A3 two grooves. Where the Rem. barrels have two nearly equal width lands and grooves, the JA barrels have two very wide grooves, and two 'normal-ish' width lands. I just traded with my new son in law, as he needed a new hunting rifle, and received, among other things, a 'sportered', Bubba'd Eddystone with an as-new JA installed. This rifle's bedding appears to be first rate, and, it's drilled and tapped, and a decent scope mounted. I plan to take it out to the bags to compare it to the Remington, and 'regular' 1-10, LH, five groove 1917 barrel.
Also, I've noticed that the two groove barrels in my Fazakerly No 4 Mk I, two groove uses the British/Canadian type of round-cornered land, but I've yet to get close enough to a Savage to see if they're the Rem style, or the Brit.
Apparently, (switching to the A3 side for a moment), there was a small release of apparent prototype Smith Corona marked, HS produced, two groove replacement barrels, I purchased one, new in the wrap several years back, and when I mentioned it, it caused quite a stir. So far, if memory serves, there have only been nine or ten reported and actually confirmed, on the Culver forum. Doesn't mean there weren't more, I know. The old gunsmith in Cheyenne, Wyo. that I bought it from said he sourced it from an outfit in Chicago in the 50's for something like .50 cents, new, unopened, with the unique HS/SC red ink that they used to notate nomenclature on the packaging still plainly visible when I bought it. That barrel is in a collection of a gent in Maryland, along with the packaging. Arguments raged between a few of the guys, one fella claimed that his Dad talked to someone at Savage, a disgruntled old fart, apparently, that claimed he made two groove barrels, and that note was apparently blown out to mean that it was Savage, and not HS that made the two groove Smith Corona barrels. (I have to wonder, if the conversation DID take place, how many boilermakers had been consumed at that point, and if he remembered that Savage WAS making two groove barrels, just for the Lend Lease No 4 Mk I's).
Sorry, I've been through the wringer on the two groove 1903A3 barrel thing...1917's in other than Bubba condition are a new field for me.

[RC20]

A lot of odd stuff happened, a lot did not get recorded (they were kind of busy!)

And memories get tangled up. Urban legends like the click of the M1 En Blok Clips puke out, right, in the midst of a lot of shooting you are going to hear the ting, but men who were there swear it was true. Human memory tends to be iffy as all get out. Good for generally what went on but specifics elude.

Myth was there were very few 6 grove SC barrels, actually something like 20k if the top researcher is right. Not the majority of course but not rare either. Have to see if I can find the data on the one I had, it was late mfg outside what the experts thought was made. Possibly just had a machine setup and kept making them on it (or used to fill out a need)

1917s in the OEM barrels stuck with the setup they had had adjusted for the 30 caliber (another myth they used 303 spec barrels and not true, US Military Authorities would not tolerate that, they made em comply with commonality of parts they sure were not going to go with a sloppy 303 (3.11 vs 3.08) barrel (and they had to meet accuracy requirements)

Ergo, the OEM W, R and E were 5 grove left hand twist (those Brits!) to Brit specs for lands and groves (width of each) as they had determined it had a better wear in the iffy 303 Cordite eat out era.

All that tooling was gone after WWI, so they made em with the right threads and with the grove and lands of HS, JA or RI (Remington) 30-06 standard US and right hand twist and the US lead into the lands and groves.